Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Gargamel35]

This Vuelta isn't about Vuelta any more. It's about TdF. Jonas is trying to prove he can win it on his own and doesnt need another captain. Rog is trying to prove he's just as good and deserves a fair chance. Kuss got caught in the middle.

It's a slaughterhouse where JV proved how strong they can be. Remco is nowhere and any other rider not named Pogačar also.

I'm also sure JV will do anything not to bring Rog to TdF. This Vuelta proves how hard is keeping both happy. Jonas wants nr. 1 spot in every race he enters. Rog is older and in time is now mode. On top of that Kuss entered the fight between both bulls.

They will win it all. But they won't sleep well. How strange is that.

 

[dazaau]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701992415979098118

View: https://twitter.com/eurosport/status/1701992415979098118


I don't really like what I am seeing at the Vuelta, just kind of makes me feel a bit sad, but I do love racing.

At least Roglic will say it. Unlike Jonas. Roglic wants to win, and while he wants Kuss to win he will look to his own ambitions and fight for it man to man.

I personally think at this point the risk of trying is not worth the potential reward, and the most likely outcome of the infighting will be a Jonas win over Kuss - which I can't imagine is a great outcome for Roglic.

 

[FroomeWagon]

This Vuelta isn't about Vuelta any more. It's about TdF. Jonas is trying to prove he can win it on his own and doesnt need another captain. Rog is trying to prove he's just as good and deserves a fair chance. Kuss got caught in the middle.

It's a slaughterhouse where JV proved how strong they can be. Remco is nowhere and any other rider not named Pogačar also.

I'm also sure JV will do anything not to bring Rog to TdF. This Vuelta proves how hard is keeping both happy. Jonas wants nr. 1 spot in every race he enters. Rog is older and in time is now mode. On top of that Kuss entered the fight between both bulls.

They will win it all. But they won't sleep well. How strange is that.

Johan Bruyneel called today "The Jumbo Visma *** show"

 

[Rackham]

I'm happy for Roglic for his Angliru stage win
Sadly, due to Team Politics, I believe he's been relegated to be on the podium but not to win it. See, Kuss is likely to faulter on stage 20th, while Vinge is likely to bring his "3rd week game" into display, which will make Roglic react to it, while both leave Kuss behind......

Like I said..... just sketchy conclusion of this Vuelta with a non-spoken inner battle among teammates....

The real sketchiness was Vingegaard's time gain on Tuesday. It seems like the sporting director(s) came up with a plan in this Vuelta to 'allow' Vingegaard to attack from further out, as evidenced on the Tourmalet. On Tuesday's stage 16 on a mere puny cat 2 murito, Vingegaard most likely won the Vuelta in a highly opportunistic manner, then proceeded to add insult to injury by feigning ignorance re his GC gains which were concealed under a humanitarian banner (no joke).

I mean... Jesus. It turned Rogla into the butt of the joke (after all the hard work & playing by the rules & team orders, he was totally screwed over). Is it any surprise after that little sh*tshow he went helter-skelter on the Angliru? As a fan I'm just super happy he won one of the hardest & most famous MTF's in pro cycling. Having his name up there is a real honor.

I mean he's won the Vuelta 3 times but never won on the Angliru. Now he has.

 

[Bolder]

The real sketchiness was Vingegaard's time gain on Tuesday. It seems like the sporting director(s) came up with a plan in this Vuelta to 'allow' Vingegaard to attack from further out, as evidenced on the Tourmalet. On Tuesday's stage 16 on a mere puny cat 2 murito, Vingegaard most likely won the Vuelta in a highly opportunistic manner, then proceeded to add insult to injury by feigning ignorance re his GC gains which were concealed under a humanitarian banner (no joke).

I mean... Jesus. It turned Rogla into the butt of the joke (after all the hard work & playing by the rules & team orders, he was totally screwed over). Is it any surprise after that little sh*tshow he went helter-skelter on the Angliru? As a fan I'm just super happy he won one of the hardest & most famous MTF's in pro cycling. Having his name up there is a real honor.

I mean he's won the Vuelta 3 times but never won on the Angliru. Now he has.

Agree. All I can say in Jumbo's defense is that it was before the Angliru, where a bad day could mean several minutes' loss. So I could see an argument for sending Vingegaard, whose form is getting better, up the road. But then that put Roglic in an impossible situation.

 

[tobydawq]

lol, talk about actions not matching words, Vingegaard has been mega agressive and is carving out time whenever he can on Kuss, he wants this Vuelta and you would be naive to think otherwise, all three of them want to win and will do whatever they can to get it.

He also started out (also after Kuss was in red) that he still hoped he would win himself.

Now when he can sense that it's out of fashion to say that, he suddenly has a different opinion.

I'm sure he'll be crying when he does get red. But the tears will be fake.

 

[Gargamel35]

It's all on JV bosses. Jonas and Primož look decent people and i don't believe they would act on their own against team orders. If Jonas asked to attack 2 days ago and JV bosses said no, i'm sure he wouldn't. The same yesterday with Primož and Jonas. It's JV bosses who want everything, all wins, all three podiums and Jonas in red. And they keep them "racing" so the outcome would be just like that. Primož doesn't like that so he's also racing. Sepp is trying to survive.

Imagine being Sepp and fighting two of the finest GC riders in the world (TdF and Giro champions). How strange is that? On the other hand. Imagine Sepp winning. Now THAT would be a win. So i'm all in for Sepp. I HOPE, JV bosses realized what are they doing and they said from now on, they all ride for Sepp. I HOPE. It's not too late. If not, Jonas will win but for most this will be a big loss.

 

[cellardoor]

I'm a Roglic fan, but things will have to get real ugly for him to win. I don't think it's worth it. I would feel much happier about Kuss winning if Roglic was at least 2nd and within a minute, but there's no pathway to that without attacking Kuss too. I think JV should call a truce at this point. But I think he did need to show the world yesterday that he's still one of the best climbers.

 

[Gargamel35]

I'm a Roglic fan, but things will have to get real ugly for him to win. I don't think it's worth it. I would feel much happier about Kuss winning if Roglic was at least 2nd and within a minute, but there's no pathway to that without attacking Kuss too. I think JV should call a truce at this point. But I think he did need to show the world yesterday that he's still one of the best climbers.

He did and i hope it's done now. He can't crack Jonas but he will drag him into red. I still believe bosses are pushing this agenda. Jonas and Primož look embarrassed out there.

 

[Scarponi]

He could easily win the next 2 Giros if he wanted to but obviously this all about one more crack at the TDF

 

[Rackham]

He also started out (also after Kuss was in red) that he still hoped he would win himself.

Now when he can sense that it's out of fashion to say that, he suddenly has a different opinion.

I'm sure he'll be crying when he does get red. But the tears will be fake.

Vingegaard will win this Vuelta (unless there's suddenly an intervention from Plugge & Zeeman who forcibly freeze GC now), but he'll do so because of team orders only, i.e. favoritism from the car on the Tourmalet & Bejes, which a touch of serious luck involved when UAE didn't chase.

The message Rog sent yesterday was "look how strong I am". It made Tuesday's minute gain by Vingegaard look ridiculous in hindsight. And for me that's the main issue here, i.e. it's no secret Vingegaard is insanely strong (everyone now knows this), but when the team car conspired to give him an advantage over Rog (after Rog took time in the ITT fair & square), it was not right. But in a certain way I don't want to rehash this stuff like on & on because Rog made his point yesterday & after all, it's just bike racing. All I know is the vast majority of commentators expected him to crack out there on the slopes of the Angliru. He re-established his credentials quite spectacularly (& shut up the "watts calculator hobbyists" on social media who were constantly undermining his performances, i.e. which was something I enjoyed quite a lot).

I mean the basic truth is he was over a minute down & third in GC anyway so if any of the top 3 should have enjoyed more freedom to attack & gain time, it was him. Certainly after Vinge was afforded all manner of opportunities to take back time himself.

If Rog waits for Kuss & paces him, everyone would say "look, he couldn't win on the Angliru anyway". And that's another unwritten 'rule' in cycling, i.e. a rider is only as good as his last performance. The pendulum swings quickly & there's always people just waiting to bury a rider, especially Roglič who had been declared "finished" as a top GT rider... for years.

 

[RedheadDane]

The message Rog sent yesterday was "look how strong I am". It made Tuesday's minute gain by Vingegaard look ridiculous in hindsight.

Does it, though? On Wednesday Roglic was one of the strongest. On Tuesday, he wasn't... it's not that unlikely a scenario.

 

[DNP-Old]

This Vuelta isn't about Vuelta any more. It's about TdF. Jonas is trying to prove he can win it on his own and doesnt need another captain. Rog is trying to prove he's just as good and deserves a fair chance. Kuss got caught in the middle.

How (and why) does one prove something which they have already done? Vingegaard beat Pogacar straight up this year.

 

[bNator]

Does it, though? On Wednesday Roglic was one of the strongest. On Tuesday, he wasn't... it's not that unlikely a scenario.

It's not enitrely unlikely - but it is more likely that he was either told or thought himself he shouldn't chase his teammate. Or maybe he miscalculated that UAE would drive the chase and he would benefit in the end. Or he was hoping for Jonas to implode. Out af all these scenarios I consider Roglic being actually 1 minute weaker than Jonas the least likely.

On a separate note. I agree with all the guys saying Roglic should stand back now. It is what it is - he probably can't win this vuelta and all his attempts to get back in front of Jonas will just result in Jonas winning the Vuelta and not only that - he will be given an opportunity to legitimise/justify his win. He was merely following Roglic.

Roglic made his point and if Jonas wants to snatch vitory from his teammate, he should do it himself and then cry about it in the interviews after the race.

In fact, the best thing for Rogla now is to ride for Kuss and then immediately switch teams. Even serving Pogacar at UAE is better for him at this point.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I’m a little confused as to how Roglic is the big villain here today. Vingegaard has attacked on two mountain stages in a row, and Roglic sat with the group, giving up his chances at red to a teammate behind him on GC. Today he attacked and, unlike Roglic, Vingegaard and Kuss immediately followed. Yesterday, Roglic was supposed to get the win but Vingegaard took it. Today, Roglic took the win for himself. The problematic one, IF you think the team should ride for Kuss, is Vingegaard, who has gone from third to two minutes back to 8 seconds off the lead by leaving behind his teammate in red 3 stages in a row.

Roglič is being portrayed as the villain because there are a lot of sentimentalists (and a lot of Americans, or people like Bruyneel and Benji who are targeting an American audience, being among the most vocal of these) who want to see Kuss win and are upset now that it looks like he would need a gift to keep it. Some of them are just straight up asking for a gift, others are conflicted because they don't want to see formation riding take away the only racing left, but their favoured option for the win is now looking like he needs a gift to do so.

Plus of course those raised on the sport in the Armstrong era have had the importance of the unwritten rules drilled into them as sacrosanct, and so it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. It's certainly happened plenty of times before and it's always controversial, but usually it's just between two riders, not three. Roche and Visentini, Fignon and Hinault, Olano and Jiménez, Contador and Armstrong. I mean, the Schleck brothers held a grudge for how many years against Carlos Sastre, and he even asked Fränk for permission to attack on Bonette, which was denied, was a good boy and heeded his teammate's wishes even though he was nominally the team leader, and only attacked on Alpe d'Huez because it was his last chance left to win the Tour (AND Fränk proved not strong enough to have won anyway so Carlos' decision was vindicated).

I don't really like what I am seeing at the Vuelta, just kind of makes me feel a bit sad, but I do love racing.

"I do love racing, but I want them not to race because the guy I want to win may lose."

Not to dig at you individually, we all have that cognitive dissonance sometimes. But just to point out that that is what you're saying. You love racing, but you want them to not race one another and just shepherd Kuss to the line because he's the guy you want to win and he's now shown to be vulnerable.

He also started out (also after Kuss was in red) that he still hoped he would win himself.

Now when he can sense that it's out of fashion to say that, he suddenly has a different opinion.

I'm sure he'll be crying when he does get red. But the tears will be fake.

100%.

Vingegaard will win this Vuelta (unless there's suddenly an intervention from Plugge & Zeeman who forcibly freeze GC now), but he'll do so because of team orders only, i.e. favoritism from the car on the Tourmalet & Bejes, which a touch of serious luck involved when UAE didn't chase.

...and if they get instructed to ride in formation and Kuss wins, surely that would be due to team orders and favouritism from the team car only just as much?

 

[dazaau]

"I do love racing, but I want them not to race because the guy I want to win may lose."

Not to dig at you individually, we all have that cognitive dissonance sometimes. But just to point out that that is what you're saying. You love racing, but you want them to not race one another and just shepherd Kuss to the line because he's the guy you want to win and he's now shown to be vulnerable.

100%.

...and if they get instructed to ride in formation and Kuss wins, surely that would be due to team orders and favouritism from the team car only just as much?

I personally want roglic to win. I don't want Jonas to win and would have preferred he stayed home.

I enjoy a bit of drama and chaos, so I'm enjoying the JV <insert appropriate adjective> show over boring! But part of me didn't like seeing roglic attack kuss, and all of me didn't like roglic dragging Jonas into red. The whole episode doesn't reflect well on anyone except kuss IMO.

I also maintain that now is a weird time to race each other. It's almost too late for roglic and kuss to defend / win as much of the race between them has not been raced. Kuss would have lost less time if he was able to chase in earnest not waiting for UAE and Mas, and roglic would have put Jonas to the sword early on when he was suffering early in the race, not to mention the TTT.

 

[Rackham]

I personally want roglic to win. I don't want Jonas to win and would have preferred he stayed home.

I enjoy a bit of drama and chaos, so I'm enjoying the JV show over boring! But part of me didn't like seeing roglic attack kuss, and all of me didn't like roglic dragging Jonas into red. The whole episode doesn't reflect well on anyone except kuss ATM IMO.

I also maintain that now is a weird time to race each other. It's almost too late for roglic and kuss to defend / win as much of the race between them has not been raced. Kuss would have lost less time if he was able to chase in earnest not waiting for UAE and Mas, and roglic would have put Jonas to the sword early on when he was suffering, not to mention the TTT.

IMO some people are too caught up in the moment & cannot see the forest for the trees.

Some facts of life in a team like Jumbo get brushed aside in these 'dramatic' moments on TV, i.e. the main one being Jumbo is a highly competitive team where the fight for slots in GT selections is hard. Just look at Rog's post-Giro press conference in which he said he asked the team if he could go to the TdF & they said 'no'.

Kuss meanwhile was selected because he said 'yes' when asked to domestique for Vingegaard. There's constantly a battle going on behind the scenes between riders for race selections & roles in the team. To be fair this is probably what gives them part of their edge as well, i.e. these riders have competitiveness drilled into them 24/7, all year.

But sometimes it goes wrong & for example I believe the team handled Vingegaard's inclusion in the Vuelta team very poorly, i.e. displaying favoritism before & during the race. Kuss himself is also only in red because of a tactical coup in the first week (when Quick-Step, UAE & Ineos made a huge mistake).

 

[Bolder]

He did and i hope it's done now. He can't crack Jonas but he will drag him into red. I still believe bosses are pushing this agenda. Jonas and Primož look embarrassed out there.

Yeah, a lot of sheepish grins and half-hearted talk about good for the team bla bla bla. But really they are in an impossible situation. I honestly don't know what I would have done if I were Jumbo's DSs. Nobody who knows anything about cycling buys that Kuss is so strong that the two best GC riders in the world can't match him.

All in all, as someone who believes the strongest riders should win the biggest races, JV aren't handling this all that badly. The mistake in my mind was allowing Vingegaard to race the Vuelta in the first place, but again, careers are short and windows of form can slam shut at any time.

It's a different magnitude from Wout gifting a bunch of B-level one-day races to Laporte, which I thought was nonsense. To give a GT to Kuss would be worse IMO.

 

[Lequack]

I saw Roglic as perfectly fine with Kuss winning, when both of him and Vinge were almost 2 minutes behind. He seemed cheerful and and always happy for Kuss. But once Vinge got 1 minute in one attack, and then another minute in another, leapfrogging him and looking like he got an okay to win this Vuelta, something changed. Yesterday on Angliru it seemed like he was just racing against Vinge more than anything else, even at the expense of Kuss, and Vinge obviously had no objections as well.

 

[Divergence]

Rog is put in an incredibly unenviable situation. Prior to stage 16 I believe he would have rode to the top of every climb with Sepp and maybe sprinted for stage wins, thus allowing Sepp to win the Vuelta. But, on stage 16 Jonas showed that we wants to win the Vuelta himself and what is Rog supposed to do. He must show (to his teams primarily) that he can fight with and beat Jonas. On the other hand he understands that Sepp winning would be the nice thing to do. Thus, his mixed feelings yesterday. Also, this is more about the Tour next year. There is either a spoken or unspoken message that Rog needs to perform here in order to get a leadership at the Tour next year. So, all in all, Jonas started this sh**show and now everybody looks bad. There still might be a truce called from the VJ directors where JV do not go for stages anymore and where they do not attack anymore, thus allowing Sepp to win the Vuelta. However, I do not see Jonas sticking to that plan and he will for sure find an excuse to get those 8 second back. I guess today's stage will tell us a lot.

 

[Netserk]

I agree, i think is impossible that roglic goes to the tour with Vingegaard, because roglic will not accept work for vingegaard, just like lance would never accept work for contador, going as a domestique instead of leader.
Roglic would never accept a role like what adam yates did in this tour, for pogacar.
It's time for him, to move to another team. Certainly he's got a lot of teams interested, and he will be a undisputed leader in every team except uae or jumbo.

Jumbo has so much depth that they don't need Rogla in the role of Yates.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Can he beat Vingegaard on the same team?

Yes.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If Roglic goes into red tomorrow, I wonder if Sepp should work with Vinge along with UAE later in the week to attack Roglic? Every man for himself, right? I am just wondering at what point should Jumbo not be attacking Jumbo?

Sepp should attack yes. Do everything in his power to win this race.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Crunch time to establish the Tour 2024 team hierarchy.

P.S. Or to send Jonas and Kuss to Ineos.

 

[kn0s]

The rage crying over stage 16 in this thread is some funny stuff. It was absolutely text book. Last Dom gone, launch a rider to keep control, he makes it or doesn't, you clean up with your sprint strong guy behind that can free wheel. This is done all the time. Like what the hell.

It's like all this emotional baggage is pushing all logic out the window. You are injecting all kinds of thing in to it, when it was common racing practice.

But they promised it to Roglic in the morning you say, aka plan A. Well things change on the road. If UAE was a normal team, Roglic wins, if Jumbo has 2-3 dom's at the bottom of the climb, Roglic wins.

Now I don't mind yesterday as much as some do, but to compare what happened there to stage 16 is just ridiculous. Here Roglic and Jonas looked bad to a great deal of people.