Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

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this is a nonsensical response. I just gave you the top names that he has beaten. Exactly zero epic duels won. Whenever real competition appears, he takes a dive.
I’m afraid it’s you who don’t make sense here. Like @CyclistAbi said, he has beaten everyone. Granted not everyone was in their top shape at the time they took a beating. So let’s reverse this excercise. Since his first GT victory, who did he fail to beat (while those who took a beating were at the top of their game)?

In grand tours, it’s just Pog and Vinge. That’s it.
 
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I’m afraid it’s you who don’t make sense here. Like @CyclistAbi said, he has beaten everyone. Granted not everyone was in their top shape at the time they took a beating. So let’s reverse this excercise. Since his first GT victory, who did he fail to beat (while those who took a beating were at the top of their game)?

In grand tours, it’s just Pog and Vinge. That’s it.
But that’s not what is being argued by everyone bar @CyclistAbi who’s beyond lost in the sauce. Pog and Vinge have beat those same riders Roglic beat more severely.
 
But that’s not what is being argued by everyone bar @CyclistAbi who’s beyond lost in the sauce. Pog and Vinge have beat those same riders Roglic beat more severely.
Of course they did. And I'm definitely not arguing Rog is on the same level as these two in their peak. It's just the specific argument @proffate made I have a beef with, which is: "Exactly zero epic duels won. Whenever real competition appears, he takes a dive."

It's a bit dismissive to the opposition Roglic beat and Roglic himself. In fact, it shows lack of respect to everyone bar Pog and Vinge. You can't only count Pog and Vinge as "real competition"... Roglič is 3rd best and its natural, that he gets to beat 4th best and 5th best but not THE best and 2nd best. Putting down the 3rd best rider for not beating the 2 riders better than him is what means Exactly zero sense made.
 
Yeah, Rogla took one for the team. So now there really should be not much discussions left involved. In regards to Rogličes Tour 2024 choice and on how to support him properly over there. That should be rather clear now. The team will just have to take one for Roglič.
In a team there are always gonna be first-choice options and second-choice options.

Vingegaard has surpassed Roglic in that regard. Whether me/you like it or not. Something Roglic will have to live with riding for one of the best or the best GC-team.

That he would be entitled to the leadership, because he just followed team orders in the Vuelta, doesnt necessarily means he gets/should get Tour leadership. It is all about what the team thinks are their best chance to win in the end or as always, what happens in the actual race. Unless Vingegaard and the team suddenly decides he should go for the Giro, Roglic will just have to keep doing his best and stay in shape. Hope that things will align for the Tour and set other goals in the meantime. It is what it is and he will have to live with it. His focus should just be to keep winning and keep being in the best shape he can to succeed,
 
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Of course they did. And I'm definitely not arguing Rog is on the same level as these two in their peak. It's just the specific argument @proffate made I have a beef with, which is: "Exactly zero epic duels won. Whenever real competition appears, he takes a dive."

It's a bit dismissive to the opposition Roglic beat and Roglic himself. In fact, it shows lack of respect to everyone bar Pog and Vinge. You can't only count Pog and Vinge as "real competition"... Roglič is 3rd best and its natural, that he gets to beat 4th best and 5th best but not THE best and 2nd best. Putting down the 3rd best rider for not beating the 2 riders better than him is what means Exactly zero sense made.
Right, but again we’re not talking about Roglic being number three. Look who they’re responding too, they’re talking about Roglic being a clear number one. That’s why Roglic is being put down, to get back to his three spot.
 
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Right, but again we’re not talking about Roglic being number three. Look who they’re responding to, they’re talking about Roglic being a clear number one. That’s why Roglic is being put down, to get back to his three spot.
Yes I can understand that and in the past, I even tried to explain CyclistAbi that they’re doing Roglic a disservice with their approach on this forum.

Still, I do not believe he needs to be put down just because there are some posters with weird perspective here. One shouldn’t fight absurdity with diametrically opposite absurdity. No need to say zero epic wins when you can say a lot of epic wins, still not on the level of Pog and Vinge… The latter being much closer to reality than the former.
 
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I’m afraid it’s you who don’t make sense here. Like @CyclistAbi said, he has beaten everyone. Granted not everyone was in their top shape at the time they took a beating. So let’s reverse this excercise. Since his first GT victory, who did he fail to beat (while those who took a beating were at the top of their game)?

In grand tours, it’s just Pog and Vinge. That’s it.
That's a pretty big "it."

You can twist the "he beat X who beat Y who beat Z, thus he's better than Z" argument into any pretzel shape you want.

The larger point, made upthread, is that he is third on the GC pecking order in the eyes of other teams, and even his own team. Otherwise he'd be targeting the Tour as his No. 1 priority the last two years...which he didn't.

Now, this isn't necessarily through any fault of his own. He was Opa-Omi'ed in 2021, revealing that Vingegaard was pretty damn good, and in 2022 he came into the Tour as declared co-leader but after the Dauphine it was clear to me that he was option No. 2. and then he had that haybale crash...but in any event, no one but only his most ardent fan would argue he could have matched Vingegaard.

Pog might be arguable; you could say his ITT win in 2021 was a fluke, I suppose. But at the same time, you could argue his 2023 Giro ITT win was...a fluke. Thus he's not better than G...

So, yeah, he's likely better than anyone except GC Kuss:) and those 2 guys. I don't think that is particularly debatable.
 
That's a pretty big "it."

You can twist the "he beat X who beat Y who beat Z, thus he's better than Z" argument into any pretzel shape you want.

The larger point, made upthread, is that he is third on the GC pecking order in the eyes of other teams, and even his own team. Otherwise he'd be targeting the Tour as his No. 1 priority the last two years...which he didn't.

Now, this isn't necessarily through any fault of his own. He was Opa-Omi'ed in 2021, revealing that Vingegaard was pretty damn good, and in 2022 he came into the Tour as declared co-leader but after the Dauphine it was clear to me that he was option No. 2. and then he had that haybale crash...but in any event, no one but only his most ardent fan would argue he could have matched Vingegaard.

Pog might be arguable; you could say his ITT win in 2021 was a fluke, I suppose. But at the same time, you could argue his 2023 Giro ITT win was...a fluke. Thus he's not better than G...

So, yeah, he's likely better than anyone except GC Kuss:) and those 2 guys. I don't think that is particularly debatable.
Perhaps I should have made my stance clearer but I definitely don’t subscribe to CylcistAbi’s take that since he has beaten everyone since 2019 at some point, he is now the best. He hasn’t beaten Jonas or Pog where it counts the most, so until he does that, he’s 3rd. That’s the way it is and I completely agree with you here.

But I also don’t agree with the take that he had no epic wins and that he has not won against any real completion. That take, to me, is equally unfounded…

Edit: forgot about GC Kuss… I assume that was a joke?
 
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That's a pretty big "it."

You can twist the "he beat X who beat Y who beat Z, thus he's better than Z" argument into any pretzel shape you want.

The larger point, made upthread, is that he is third on the GC pecking order in the eyes of other teams, and even his own team. Otherwise he'd be targeting the Tour as his No. 1 priority the last two years...which he didn't.

Now, this isn't necessarily through any fault of his own. He was Opa-Omi'ed in 2021, revealing that Vingegaard was pretty damn good, and in 2022 he came into the Tour as declared co-leader but after the Dauphine it was clear to me that he was option No. 2. and then he had that haybale crash...but in any event, no one but only his most ardent fan would argue he could have matched Vingegaard.

Pog might be arguable; you could say his ITT win in 2021 was a fluke, I suppose. But at the same time, you could argue his 2023 Giro ITT win was...a fluke. Thus he's not better than G...

So, yeah, he's likely better than anyone except GC Kuss:) and those 2 guys. I don't think that is particularly debatable.
WTF are you talking about? So many logical mishaps going on.
Asserting that team ranking inside JV in La Vuelta is based on actual GC capabilities is just wrong. It is biased because it ignores the background shenanigans that JV was developing,.
 
Perhaps I should have made my stance clearer but I definitely don’t subscribe to CylcistAbi’s take that since he has beaten everyone since 2019 at some point, he is now the best. He hasn’t beaten Jonas or Pog where it counts the most, so until he does that, he’s 3rd. That’s the way it is and I completely agree with you here.

But I also don’t agree with the take that he had no epic wins and that he has not won against any real completion. That take, to me, is equally unfounded…

Edit: forgot about GC Kuss… I assume that was a joke?
Yes, GC Kuss was a joke. I completely agree that Roglic was not able to race full stop in the Vuelta.
 
WTF are you talking about? So many logical mishaps going on.
Asserting that team ranking inside JV in La Vuelta is based on actual GC capabilities is just wrong. It is biased because it ignores the background shenanigans that JV was developing,.
Sorry, think you misunderstood or I wasn't clear: I wasn't talking about the Vuelta, but more that he hasn't been sole protected leader at the Tour. He and Vingegaard get a mulligan for the Vuelta on their palmares as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Roglic went where? To the store? Cause we’re not talking about the same things.

So basically Jonas tends not to stomp. Point proven? And there is a clear difference on how Jonas and Pogi rode into the sunset, alone and holding hands. But with Remco and Rogla. It was all hands? That is the difference?

About that. Such arguments are just for making things up. As it used to be Rogla crashes a lot, he is old, years back, ... Meanwhile Rogla won everything important in stage racing bar ToS and the Tour. And still going strong.

And all in all if you portray Rogla like that, how should then quality cyclists like Mas, Thomas, Landa, Ayuso, Yates (both), Almeida, Carapaz ... be perceived?

Right, but again we’re not talking about Roglic being number three. Look who they’re responding too, they’re talking about Roglic being a clear number one. That’s why Roglic is being put down, to get back to his three spot.

Well, annihilators, if you are listening. Try that next year. And lets see how that goes. If not in 2024 maybe a (couple of) year(s) later. When Rogla will indeed be more of a cycling grandpa. Having a beard and going ho ho ho. That is going after beating the Horner record.

Till then this are just some theories.
 
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In grand tours, it’s just Pog and Vinge. That’s it.

When it comes to Pogi it's 50:50 ATM, when both finished the race. When it comes to Jonas, both finishing, there really isn't any conclusive stats for that. At Vuelta they both got beaten by Kuss. Previously Jonas rode for Rogla. So here we can't really say one has beaten another. What can be said is at Vuelta 23 the difference was not significant enough. That is to for example determine Tour 2024 leaderhip based on it.

Of course they did. And I'm definitely not arguing Rog is on the same level as these two in their peak.

All three peaking, Rogla stomps both.
 
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In a team there are always gonna be first-choice options and second-choice options.

Vingegaard has surpassed Roglic in that regard. Whether me/you like it or not. Something Roglic will have to live with riding for one of the best or the best GC-team.

That he would be entitled to the leadership, because he just followed team orders in the Vuelta, doesnt necessarily means he gets/should get Tour leadership. It is all about what the team thinks are their best chance to win in the end or as always, what happens in the actual race. Unless Vingegaard and the team suddenly decides he should go for the Giro, Roglic will just have to keep doing his best and stay in shape. Hope that things will align for the Tour and set other goals in the meantime. It is what it is and he will have to live with it. His focus should just be to keep winning and keep being in the best shape he can to succeed,

Kuss made the team ride for him. Before that happened the team had two leaders, on paper. And among this three riders basically nobody was riding for the other two. Until after the Angliru that is.
 
When it comes to Pogi it's 50:50 ATM, when both finished the race. When it comes to Jonas, both finishing, there really isn't any conclusive stats for that. At Vuelta they both got beaten by Kuss. Previously Jonas rode for Rogla. So here we can't really say one has beaten another. What can be said is at Vuelta 23 the difference was not significant enough. That is to for example determine Tour 2024 leaderhip based on it.



All three peaking, Rogla stomps both.
You reckon Roglic could create peace between Russia and Ukraine too?
 

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