Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Rackham]

If this merger is true, then it retroactively makes Jumbo's behavior during the Vuelta even worse. They jerked Roglič around with bad strategies which saw him painted as a quasi villain on social media before the team imposed orders to freeze GC positions. It was a total waste of time going to the Vuelta. The only thing he got out of it was the Angliru.

If this is the end, I at least hope Jumbo give him a proper send off & farewell at Lombardia.

I think it would be hard for Movistar to get him good enough support. If that transfer happens I expect Mas to go to Giro + Vuelta next year, I think he still first and foremost have ambitions for himself.

Movistar would need to add one or two quality climbers. If Roglic can come to the Tour with Quintana (there’s been rumours), another strong climber (but who??), Tratnik (I guess he could follow), Guerreiro, Lazkano, Muhlberger and one more strong roleur it could be interesting.

If I could handpick a Jumbo rider to take with him, I'd choose Bouwman. He's super reliable & plays a key role in the bunch (spare bike as well).

He just scored a top 10 overall GC finish in Luxembourg as well.

 

[theyoungest]

If this merger is true, then it retroactively makes Jumbo's behavior during the Vuelta even worse. They jerked Roglič around with bad strategies which saw him painted as a quasi villain on social media before the team imposed orders to freeze GC positions. It was a total waste of time going to the Vuelta. The only thing he got out of it was the Angliru.

If this is the end, I at least hope Jumbo give him a proper send off & farewell at Lombardia.



If I could handpick a Jumbo rider to take with him, I'd choose Bouwman. He's super reliable & plays a key role in the bunch (spare bike as well).

He just scored a top 10 overall GC finish in Luxembourg as well.

Bouwman has had a very poor season. Don't know why you would pick him, I don't think Roglic would.

Also, regarding "Jumbo's behavior" during the Vuelta: you consistently make the mistake of regarding Jumbo as this evil moloch that's out to destroy Roglic' spirit. Like the whole of team management, plus his fellow riders, conspire against him. And Vingegaard wasn't painted as less of a villain than Roglic. So I don't really see your point here, like they should have let him win the Vuelta because... because why, exactly?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Bouwman has had a very poor season. Don't know why you would pick him, I don't think Roglic would.

I think he was solid for Roglic in the Giro.

 

[tobydawq]

If this merger is true, then it retroactively makes Jumbo's behavior during the Vuelta even worse. They jerked Roglič around with bad strategies which saw him painted as a quasi villain on social media before the team imposed orders to freeze GC positions. It was a total waste of time going to the Vuelta. The only thing he got out of it was the Angliru.

If this is the end, I at least hope Jumbo give him a proper send off & farewell at Lombardia.



If I could handpick a Jumbo rider to take with him, I'd choose Bouwman. He's super reliable & plays a key role in the bunch (spare bike as well).

He just scored a top 10 overall GC finish in Luxembourg as well.

Bouwman reliable? Sure, in a 2022 Giro context. Anywhere else in his career not so much.

 

[Rackham]

Bouwman has had a very poor season. Don't know why you would pick him, I don't think Roglic would.

Also, regarding "Jumbo's behavior" during the Vuelta: you consistently make the mistake of regarding Jumbo as this evil moloch that's out to destroy Roglic' spirit. Like the whole of team management, plus his fellow riders, conspire against him. And Vingegaard wasn't painted as less of a villain than Roglic. So I don't really see your point here, like they should have let him win the Vuelta because... because why, exactly?

Bouwman was there for Rog in the Giro. That was his job. He can provide support on flat, hilly & some mountain terrains. They understand each other very well as well (there were some interviews where Bouwman mentioned how they can read each other's thoughts with just a look).

As for the Vuelta, I found this little bit of info from Jan Tratnik interesting:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1705941272689615276

View: https://twitter.com/IgorTominec/status/1705941272689615276


On stage 6, he slowed down at the end & stopped pulling the breakaway as hard because they didn't want to give Sepp Kuss a 5 minute lead in GC, i.e. a gap which would have risked eliminating Rog & Vinge from contention.

I mean wow, right? Kuss could have been in an even stronger position in GC but Jumbo deliberately chose not to.

Basically a GT takes months to prepare for, at altitude, away from the family & under a super strict diet & lifestyle. Why did Jumbo even send Rog to Spain? Their tactic in the first week was about getting Kuss ahead (but not too far ahead...), at the end of the second week & beginning of the third week their tactic was about getting Vingegaard to make up all his lost time (specifically from the ITT) & jump ahead of Rog in GC, then their tactic at the end of week 3 was to freeze GC.

What did Roglič get out of this? Nothing. So I'm not surprised about his comments yesterday when he said it's not about victories, it's about "showing what he can do". This I think is the real point of contention because in two incidents this season (that we know of), he hasn't been allowed to show what he can do. First in the Tour when he asked to go but they said no, then in the Vuelta.

 

[theyoungest]

Bouwman was there for Rog in the Giro. That was his job. He can provide support on flat, hilly & some mountain terrains. They understand each other very well as well (there were some interviews where Bouwman mentioned how they can read each other's thoughts with just a look).

As for the Vuelta, I found this little bit of info from Jan Tratnik interesting:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1705941272689615276

View: https://twitter.com/IgorTominec/status/1705941272689615276


On stage 6, he slowed down at the end & stopped pulling the breakaway as hard because they didn't want to give Sepp Kuss a 5 minute lead in GC, i.e. a gap which would have risked eliminating Rog & Vinge from contention.

I mean wow, right? Kuss could have been in an even stronger position in GC but Jumbo deliberately chose not to.

Basically a GT takes months to prepare for, at altitude, away from the family & under a super strict diet & lifestyle. Why did Jumbo even send Rog to Spain? Their tactic in the first week was about getting Kuss ahead (but not too far ahead...), at the end of the second week & beginning of the third week their tactic was about getting Vingegaard to make up all his lost time (specifically from the ITT) & jump ahead of Rog in GC, then their tactic at the end of week 3 was to freeze GC.

What did Roglič get out of this? Nothing. So I'm not surprised about his comments yesterday when he said it's not about victories, it's about "showing what he can do". This I think is the real point of contention because in two incidents this season (that we know of), he hasn't been allowed to show what he can do. First in the Tour when he asked to go but they said no, then in the Vuelta.

Poor, poor Primoz. The multi millionaire living in a tax haven. You think these other riders don't have to do any training?

You explain literally everything as a plot against Roglic. It's getting a bit tiresome. This is just conspiracy theory territory. Bahrain (or Trek, or wherever he'll go) won't know what's coming for them with this unique following he has

 

[bNator]

Poor, poor Primoz. The multi millionaire living in a tax haven. You think these other riders don't have to do any training?

You explain literally everything as a plot against Roglic. It's getting a bit tiresome. This is just conspiracy theory territory. Bahrain (or Trek, or wherever he'll go) won't know what's coming for them with this unique following he has

How can that ever be an argument for anything? In the end of the day, when other arguments fail, just say he's rich so he should suck it up?

And I'm not that sure about unique following either, TBH. There's interesting stuff going on in other threads as well...

 

[Rackham]

Poor, poor Primoz. The multi millionaire living in a tax haven. You think these other riders don't have to do any training?

You explain literally everything as a plot against Roglic. It's getting a bit tiresome. This is just conspiracy theory territory. Bahrain (or Trek, or wherever he'll go) won't know what's coming for them with this unique following he has

Well, I'm just explaining what is. You don't have to agree.

Roglič wants to "show what he can do" (his words, not mine). That entails operational freedom which he didn't get in the Vuelta.

 

[theyoungest]

How can that ever be an argument for anything? In the end of the day, when other arguments fail, just say he's rich so he should suck it up?

And I'm not that sure about unique following either, TBH. There's interesting stuff going on in other threads as well...

No, but this constant portrayal of Roglic as some kind of victim... it's just pathetic IMO. It also involves believing two opposite things at the same time: that Jumbo management are tactically inept but also that they can exactly plan how to sabotage him. Now somehow the fact that Kuss didn't get a 5 minute gap was disadvantageous to Roglic, but not to Vingegaard. Yeah, that's what they were thinking about on that breakaway day: how can we destroy Roglic.

 

[Rackham]

No, but this constant portrayal of Roglic as some kind of victim... it's just pathetic IMO. It also involves believing two opposite things at the same time: that Jumbo management are tactically inept but also that they can exactly plan how to sabotage him. Now somehow the fact that Kuss didn't get a 5 minute gap was disadvantageous to Roglic, but not to Vingegaard. Yeah, that's what they were thinking about on that breakaway day: how can we destroy Roglic.

I don't know where you're getting the bolded part from. No one has said that. The Kuss breakaway gap on Javalambre getting curtailed by Jumbo themselves like that simply showed they were juggling too many interests at once. It's certainly not common for a team to deliberately make sure one of their own riders doesn't get a bigger gap in GC. That's why Tratnik's admission was a remarkable confession, i.e. not because of some sort of inserted victimhood which you're attempting to paint upon Rog fans here.

Jumbo wanted Kuss ahead in GC, but not by too much. Then they wanted Vingegaard back in the game, but in the end not by too much either (& he had to deliberately lose time after coming within 8 seconds of Kuss).

The whole Vuelta had the feel of the Schumacher-Barrichello Ferrari days when Jean Todt would choose the winner. Here, Jumbo chose the winner. And that decision came pretty late in the game when Roglič hadn't really had the opportunity to show what he could do (other than in the ITT).

 

[CyclistAbi]

Rogla said it well. Currently he doesn't have 6 contracts on the table but 6 dippers. Thinking what to do. But he is happy all the teams mentioned are interested in him. That means he is doing something right.

P.S. That is if teams will mix and riders will change nests. For Rogla i feel that for sure it is important to stay vigilant and to chose wisely. In the end i feel it will be fine.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Tour leadership, good support, good materials, team serious about winning with Rogla ... At JV or in a similar team. Looking forward to it.

P.S. For Rogla i feel that all the latest talks, about mergers, presented a few new opportunities not previously being available.

 

[kn0s]

GT takes months to prepare for, at altitude, away from the family & under a super strict diet & lifestyle. Why did Jumbo even send Rog to Spain? Their tactic in the first week was about getting Kuss ahead (but not too far ahead...), at the end of the second week & beginning of the third week their tactic was about getting Vingegaard to make up all his lost time (specifically from the ITT) & jump ahead of Rog in GC, then their tactic at the end of week 3 was to freeze GC.

What did Roglič get out of this? Nothing. So I'm not surprised about his comments yesterday when he said it's not about victories, it's about "showing what he can do". This I think is the real point of contention because in two incidents this season (that we know of), he hasn't been allowed to show what he can do. First in the Tour when he asked to go but they said no, then in the Vuelta.

At the end of the day, Roglic got 2 stages and free rein on Angliru. Jonas got two stages also. Should Rog get 4 stages? Would that be the right move by the team?

Would you rather Roglic get the planned win on stage 16 and Jonas as the designated winner on Angliru?

I understand things came out a little underwhelming for Roglic as a 3 time winner here. But you have to admit it was just about impossible to make everyone happy.

 

[theyoungest]

I don't know where you're getting the bolded part from. No one has said that. The Kuss breakaway gap on Javalambre getting curtailed by Jumbo themselves like that simply showed they were juggling too many interests at once. It's certainly not common for a team to deliberately make sure one of their own riders doesn't get a bigger gap in GC. That's why Tratnik's admission was a remarkable confession, i.e. not because of some sort of inserted victimhood which you're attempting to paint upon Rog fans here.

Jumbo wanted Kuss ahead in GC, but not by too much. Then they wanted Vingegaard back in the game, but in the end not by too much either (& he had to deliberately lose time after coming within 8 seconds of Kuss).

The whole Vuelta had the feel of the Schumacher-Barrichello Ferrari days when Jean Todt would choose the winner. Here, Jumbo chose the winner. And that decision came pretty late in the game when Roglič hadn't really had the opportunity to show what he could do (other than in the ITT).

Roglic was free to attack on the Tourmalet stage just as much as Vingegaard was, of course. He just didn't. It was pretty clear that Vingegaard just was the one with the better legs on the day, you could see it basically for the whole stage. Roglic was happy just to follow. And that's also just more his style. I don't know why as a Roglic fan you think he's been held back so much, when it's really not his MO to go on solo attacks all the time. He likes to follow wheels and sprint in the final k. That's his particular strength, and he uses it well.

 

[Rackham]

At the end of the day, Roglic got 2 stages and free rein on Angliru. Jonas got two stages also. Should Rog get 4 stages? Would that be the right move by the team?

Would you rather Roglic get the planned win on stage 16 and Jonas as the designated winner on Angliru?

I understand things came out a little underwhelming for Roglic as a 3 time winner here. But you have to admit it was just about impossible to make everyone happy.

Be that as it may, it does kind of answer the question though, right? i.e. what does Roglič actually get out of a set-up like Jumbo's in the recent Vuelta? Nothing!

If riders like Mas, Landa (at least until next season), Thomas & co get to ride around GT's as team leaders, then Rog should as well. And what's the risk? That he finishes third in GC? He already did at Jumbo.

So there's not much to lose here in raw terms by leaving Jumbo, except perhaps on the performance side of things, but tbh that's more opaque with regards to its veracity & open to interpretation, i.e. like we've seen some riders better elsewhere than at Jumbo (like Dennis) & vice-versa.

Either Jumbo gives Rog a better deal on the road for next season, or he'll leave. That's how I see it.

Roglic was free to attack on the Tourmalet stage just as much as Vingegaard was, of course. He just didn't.

This isn't what the team DS said (Marc Reef). He said the plan was for Vingegaard to go from further out on the climb, then Kuss & then Rog was allowed to go in the final km with his burst of speed uphill. They got what they aimed for on the Tourmalet which was 1-2-3 in that order.

 

[theyoungest]

This isn't what the team DS said (Marc Reef). He said the plan was for Vingegaard to go from further out on the climb, then Kuss & then Rog was allowed to go in the final km with his burst of speed uphill. They got what they aimed for on the Tourmalet which was 1-2-3 in that order.

Maybe on the Tourmalet itself. Vingegaard had already attacked a couple of times previously. Nothing holding back Roglic from doing the same once Vingegaard was caught. But he didn't.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@kn0s

For Roglič not winning the overall is always an issue. Especially as in the end he couldn't even go for it, due to team orders. Then there is the question on why prepare 6 month for that. And when Kuss won't be enough, on some future GT, then fallback to Rogla?

@theyoungest

Nah. That was not full gas racing by Rogla by any means. Roglič was acting like a good teammate should. As he didn't want to bring others with him, to attack team member, he jeopardies his own opportunities. Team dynamics played a crucial role here, not strength. On top of that he was riding Tourmalet without any team support. That by itself is indeed strange. With for example a mechanical it would be all over.

 

[Netserk]

Maybe on the Tourmalet itself. Vingegaard had already attacked a couple of times previously. Nothing holding back Roglic from doing the same once Vingegaard was caught. But he didn't.

From what anyone from the team has said in public, that's just not true. They had a plan and different roles. Rogla's role was not to attack from farther out.

 

[Divergence]

At the end of the day, Roglic got 2 stages and free rein on Angliru. Jonas got two stages also. Should Rog get 4 stages? Would that be the right move by the team?

Would you rather Roglic get the planned win on stage 16 and Jonas as the designated winner on Angliru?

I understand things came out a little underwhelming for Roglic as a 3 time winner here. But you have to admit it was just about impossible to make everyone happy.

Rog easily gets 5 or more stages if there were no team orders.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Maybe on the Tourmalet itself. Vingegaard had already attacked a couple of times previously. Nothing holding back Roglic from doing the same once Vingegaard was caught. But he didn't.

Why do you keep posting s*** like this? Some of your other posts are well put, so it just sounds awkward you're insisting on this time again.

 

[bNator]

No, but this constant portrayal of Roglic as some kind of victim... it's just pathetic IMO. It also involves believing two opposite things at the same time: that Jumbo management are tactically inept but also that they can exactly plan how to sabotage him. Now somehow the fact that Kuss didn't get a 5 minute gap was disadvantageous to Roglic, but not to Vingegaard. Yeah, that's what they were thinking about on that breakaway day: how can we destroy Roglic.

To be totally honest, this "Roglic fans always try to present him as victim" narrative has also gotten out of hand. It's not a conspiracy theory to say that TJV prefer Jonas. It's a fact. And it's also understandable - he's the better GC rider at the moment.

And here's where the problem is: Rogla is not so bad himself. He's firmly among the top 3 GC riders in the world right now. It's not far and we can debate whether he may even be second. So the fact that 3rd best GC rider in the world does not have the best possible team support befitting his quality (because only one in the team can have that) is what causes frustration for his fans. There's no conspiracy here, TJV don't want to sabotage anyone... It's not even TJV's fault. It's just a simple fact that Jonas is the better GC rider at the moment and that's why Rogla does not have the leadership status he would have had in any other team bar UAE.

And since we seem to be on the verge of him leaving the team, it's only natural for his fans to express their frustration and call for him to go, without being conspiracy theorists...

And then we have a loop:
Roglic fan: Damn, Rogla does not have the support he deserves!
Roglic sceptic: That's because he sucks! He should just go if he can't handle it...
Roglic fan: Ok, TJV really don't support him anymore, he can't hanlde it, he should go.
Roglic sceptic: Stop victimising him, you conspiracy theorist pussy! He should stay and suffer! Ha ha!

 

[DNP-Old]

Rog easily gets 5 or more stages if there were no team orders.

Lol, he would easily get 21 stages with free reign.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's not a conspiracy theory to say that TJV prefer Jonas. It's a fact.

Kuss won.

 

[bNator]

Kuss won.

So what's your point - TJV prefer Kuss? Did you watch the race?

 

[CyclistAbi]

So what's your point - TJV prefer Kuss? Did you watch the race?

Well, if it would be such a fact, then JV would find a way to push Jonas in front of Kuss. Just like it isn't a fact that Jonas is better GC rider then Rogla. That is currently at best a moot point, based on some inconclusive data. People just like to spread this theory. Like the flat earth one. Both are currently popular. On why this needs to be said from time to time is as spreading this theory has some actual effects. That is JV is rather reluctant to give Rogla leadership at the Tour. They rather result to some "Joker" crap.