Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Netserk]

There was also a point in time where Roglic had won just 1 WT stage race. At that point, he was as good as anyone in stage races, nevertheless.

So I don't know what your point is.

The point is straightforward if you follow the conversation. The conversation was about results.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Rogla before his first Romandie victory was as good as anyone in stage races.

 

[SHAD0W93]

2 of which were WT: UAE and Pologne.

Evenepoel has won 1 of the 10 greatest stage races, Rogla has won 13 of those. This season alone of Rogla beats the entire career of Evenepoel in this regard.

They are not in the same league, not even in bordering leagues.

Again, thank you for proving my point that not every win is the same. Or are we going to argue Cavendish’s 34 is the same as Merckx’s 34?

Case in point:
Roglic won 20 stage races (4 GT + 10 WT + 6 minor ones), 70% being big races
Pogacar won 13 stage races (2 GT + 6 WT + 5 minor), 62% big races
Vingegaard won 6 stage races (2 GT + 2WT + 2 minor), 67% big races
Evenepoel won 11 stage races (1 GT + 2WT + 8 minor), 27% big races

So we have Roglic on top of the list in both races won, and percentage of this races being the highest category.
Domination again..

Case in point:
Roglic has also rode and lost more WT stage races compared to Vinge and Pog.
Roglic also has the worst GT GC finishing position.

So does that put him back on the bottom?



But we can all agree we’d love to have Roglic go to the Tour on Jumbo or a different team, some for different reasons.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The point is straightforward if you follow the conversation. The conversation was about results.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Rogla before his first Romandie victory was as good as anyone in stage races.

The conversation was not about results, it’s been about his comparison to Pogacar and Vingegaard and their domination over the rest of the field. All 3 win, two beat down the competition more frequently than the other.

 

[Netserk]

What stage races is Evenepoel dominating?

Roglic won 20 stage races, among them 4 Grand Tours and 10 WT level races (6 of the big 7), all in last 4-5 years. That's called domination. Or do you know someone did better? Or even close?

Evenepoel gets belittled as a stage racer and he’s won a GT and 10 other stage races. That’s far better than some that are rated as a stage racer.

Only winning 1 of the 10 greatest stage races ever (while Rogla won 3 this season alone), means that Evenepoel doesn't qualify as a dominating stage racer. Unlike Rogla.

 

[Netserk]

No other rider in the WT peloton has won as many as prestigious stage races as Rogla has. And he keeps delivering.

 

[Valv.Piti]

No other rider in the WT peloton has won as many as prestigious stage races as Rogla has. And he keeps delivering.

Roglic, especially at his peak, was close to impossible to beat in those races. His record is very impressive, but he's very clearly not the best at week long stages races.

 

[Netserk]

Roglic, especially at his peak, was close to impossible to beat in those races. His record is very impressive, but he's very clearly not the best at week long stages races.

He’s not? Clearly so?

I think he is.

 

[Valv.Piti]

He’s not? Clearly so?

I think he is.

Pogacar is the best one week stage racer in the world by quite a margin even though he doesn't do a ton of them. But when he does, he simply obliterates the competition due to him being the best at 10-20 min climbs, lesser mountain days and has a monstrous sprint that even Roglic can't match. He's literally built for these races, so is Roglic, but Pogacar is just one level above. Unmatched versatility and top-end level.

Close between Rogla and Jonas for 2nd. I'd favor Rogla on some courses, Jonas on some others.

 

[Netserk]

Pogacar is the best one week stage racer in the world by quite a margin even though he doesn't do a ton of them. But when he does, he simply obliterates the competition due to him being the best at 10-20 min climbs, lesser mountain days and has a monstrous sprint that even Roglic can't match. He's literally built for these races, so is Roglic, but Pogacar is just one level above. Unmatched versatility and top-end level.

Close between Rogla and Jonas for 2nd. I'd favor Rogla on some courses, Jonas on some others.

He has only done 2 of the greatest 7 the past 2 seasons (against subpar Vingegaard both times). Last time he faced Rogla, he lost.

Of the best three, Rogla has the best ITT. And the best killer instinct.

 

[Valv.Piti]

He has only done 2 of the greatest 7 the past 2 seasons. Last time he faced Rogla, he lost.

Of the best three, Rogla has the best ITT.

Of course Im aware of that, and thats not my argument at all. Pogacar focus on classics in the spring and prefers Slovenia to Dauphine and Suisse, so naturally doesn't race many. But when he races, the result is pretty much a given each time. Its not close to being close when he lines up.

You're referring to Basque Country, 2021, two and a half years from now. Irrelevant

And I do think Roglic has the worst time trial off the three, but its very marginal and therefore not really relevant. Pog is just undropable in the terrain that these races uses, only its high mountains close to Vingegaard peak shape. He would definitely have been in trouble against Jonas in Dauphine, as would everybody else in the world.

 

[tobydawq]

He has only done 2 of the greatest 7 the past 2 seasons

That's not really the point, is it?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Only winning 1 of the 10 greatest stage races ever (while Rogla won 3 this season alone), means that Evenepoel doesn't qualify as a dominating stage racer. Unlike Rogla.

Evenenpoel was brought up to prove a point, just because he’s won 11 stage races doesn’t mean it equals Roglic’s 20. Just like just because Roglic is winning doesn’t mean it equals Pog and Vinge’s wins because they were dominate. That’s been the point and it keeps being circumvented because Roglic is still winning due to his brains, sprint, and team.

 

[Netserk]

That's not really the point, is it?

It makes it harder to judge him. Beating Gaudu places you where exactly?

 

[Valv.Piti]

It makes it harder to judge him. Beating Gaudu places you where exactly?

Thats just disingenuous

 

[tobydawq]

It makes it harder to judge him. Beating Gaudu places you where exactly?

At the top.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Will you admit Remco is a better one day racer?

Overall or in remainder of the season? Best to wait and see.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Thank you for arguing mine and everyone else’s point that not all wins are the same. Evenepoel gets belittled as a stage racer and he’s won a GT and 10 other stage races. That’s far better than some that are rated as a stage racer.

There’s a difference that is being stated, and is ignored by the fans; Roglic winning does not equal that he dominated the opposition. Is him winning over a long period domination, yes. But that’s not what’s being discussed. It’s on his status to Pogacar and Vingegaard. Roglic the majority of the time wins because he uses his brains, stomps them, and has the best or one of the best teams in the race to win those close GCs. While compared to Pogacar and Vingegaard who quite frankly play with their food because they are far and away the strongest.

Case in point;
Roglic has won 15 of his 20 stage races with less than a min advantage. 75%
Pogacar has won 7 of his 13 stage races with less than a min advantage. 54%
Vingegaard has won 1 of his 6 stage races with less than a min advantage. 17%
Evenepoel 7 of his 11 stage races with less than a min advantage. 64%

Roglic is closer to Evenepoel, quite a bit of peoples number 4 stage racer, than he is to Pog and Vinge.

The discussion was about domination is stage racing. It was you who brought Remco into the discussion. I don't feel Remco got belittled, by saying that currently Remco can't be considered as dominant in stage racing as Rogla.

When you say long period of domination. That is something i can agree with you. We could say that about Rogla. One more thing with Rogla is, at least up until now, he has show much more interest and focus on stage racing, compared to Pogi and Remco. Rogla is stage racer by choice (and desire). On where Remco and especially Pogi in my opinion really likes to do classics. Pogi especially races stage races and even GT's, as classics.

As for Rogla using his brain. That doesn't imply he isn't the strongest. It takes severe confidence and strength, to beat such great rivals, by second, instead of going for more.

P.S. As for Rogla having the best team support. Team yes, as for the support, that is rather debatable. For example there were even discussions involved, by some, on how Rogla won't be a sole leader at the Tour 2024. Imagine that.

 

[tobydawq]

For example there were even discussions involved, by some, on how Rogla won't be a sole leader at the Tour 2024. Imagine that.

Yes, the majority do indeed speculate that the guy who won the Tour the last two years will not start in a domestique role.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yes, the majority do indeed speculate that the guy who won the Tour the last two years will not start in a domestique role.

But that was my point, that is a claim was made, that Rogla is benefiting from strong team support. Not really, on races as Tour. There he rides for a strong team. That much is true. Support, well ... dog eat dog type of support. He can rely on that. On Giro and Vuelta Rogla usually doesn't get the A team support either.

 

[tobydawq]

But that was my point, that is a claim was made, that Rogla is benefiting from strong team support. Not really, on races as Tour. There he rides for a strong team. That much is true. Support, well ... dog eat dog type of support. He can rely on that. On Giro and Vuelta Rogla usually doesn't get the A team support either.

Fair enough. I agree with that.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The discussion was about domination is stage racing. It was you who brought Remco into the discussion. I don't feel Remco got belittled, by saying that currently Remco can't be considered as dominant in stage racing as Rogla.

When you say long period of domination. That is something i can agree with you. We could say that about Rogla. One more thing with Rogla is, at least up until now, he has show much more interest and focus on stage racing, compared to Pogi and Remco. Rogla is stage racer by choice (and desire). On where Remco and especially Pogi in my opinion really likes to do classics. Pogi especially races stage races and even GT's, as classics.

As for Rogla using his brain. That doesn't imply he isn't the strongest. It takes severe confidence and strength, to beat such great rivals, by second, instead of going for more.

P.S. As for Rogla having the best team support. Team yes, as for the support, that is rather debatable. For example there were even discussions involved, by some, on how Rogla won't be a sole leader at the Tour 2024. Imagine that.

Yes like has been said previously Evenepoel was brought up to show a win doesn’t equal other wins because you and others keep bringing up that Roglic is just as dominate as Pog and Vinge. That’s been the point. What races do you think Rolgic could have won by more, even including shipping time on the final stage?

We all can imagine that, Vinge was better the last two years. Any other team bar UAE and he’s sole leader. You’re not making the third best sole leader when you have number one on the team.

 

[SHAD0W93]

But that was my point, that is a claim was made, that Rogla is benefiting from strong team support. Not really, on races as Tour. There he rides for a strong team. That much is true. Support, well ... dog eat dog type of support. He can rely on that. On Giro and Vuelta Rogla usually doesn't get the A team support either.

Roglic might not have the A team there but it’s still shown to be the strongest or one of the strongest GC teams.

Edit: also I thought Roglic was best at a hard pace? Vinge being there means Roglic will benefit from the harder pace and you say he’s the best when the race is hard. Thus even as a coleader he’s being benefited.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What races do you think Rolgic could have won by more, even including shipping time on the final stage?

A whole lot of them. For example Giro, TA, Catalunya. If we focus on this season. In all of them it's reasonable to suggest Rogla could gain a bit more time. If he would be into that.

P.S. Rogla didn't win Vuelta. Still, if allowed, he would likely do a tad better.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Roglic might not have the A team there but it’s still shown to be the strongest or one of the strongest GC teams.

Sometimes indeed that was the case but not always. Rogla was left hanging on a whole lot of races. Any resemblance of a climb and that was it. You are the leader and you do it. And Rogla did it.

Edit: also I thought Roglic was best at a hard pace? Vinge being there means Roglic will benefit from the harder pace and you say he’s the best when the race is hard. Thus even as a coleader he’s being benefited.

No, that is not beneficial for Rogla. Team more or less waits until they decide it's time to send Jonas up the road. Then Rogla should do nothing. As others should pull. But lately others don't care. Rogla, if he would be a bit selfish, should then crack others and make sure not to bring anybody with him, when he bridges Jonas. On top of that Kuss is not prepared to empty himself any more. Due to being a Joker. So again it's Rogla who should crack the rest. Bottom line, no real benefit for Rogla. More of an interference.

P.S. On what i actually said is if the profile is hard enough, that benefits Rogla. As he can then just drop Jonas or at least Kuss and to again have a resemblance of a team.

 

[Blanco]

Evenenpoel was brought up to prove a point, just because he’s won 11 stage races doesn’t mean it equals Roglic’s 20. Just like just because Roglic is winning doesn’t mean it equals Pog and Vinge’s wins because they were dominate. That’s been the point and it keeps being circumvented because Roglic is still winning due to his brains, sprint, and team.

There's plenty smart riders with a good sprint and a good team.
Roglic is winning mainly because of his strength.