Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[acm]

You mean when Roglic got put on the front, started looking around, Landa went to attack, Roglic accelerated with him, and then everyone slowed down after which he later went back in the group? Where was all of Roglic’s help on stage 18?

Oh you know exactly what I meant. Just like you know that's not what really happened. But oh well, keep making a fool of yourself if you want.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Oh you know exactly what I meant. Just like you know that's not what really happened. But oh well, keep making a fool of yourself if you want.

That’s what happened in the visuals we saw. But I forgot, Roglic can do no wrong and we’re blind to a massive Roglic hate conspiracy going on under our noses.

 

[CyclistAbi]

That was likely the main problem with this last part of the debate.

Rogla never ever claimed he isn't in it for the overall. So trying to prove that he was in it for the overall. In my opinion that just doesn't make much sense. There is no disagreement involved in the first place.

Jonas was there for overall too. And on any chance he got he tried to do exactly that. Even on stages where the agreement made prior to the stage was different.

Sepp kind of grown into the idea during the race. And if Rogla or Jonas would prevent him to win, then such win wouldn't be perceived as particularly remarkable. But during all of this it did expose something. That is Jonas was favoured over Rogla, by team, now that wouldn't change at the Tour 2024. So Visma choose and so did Rogla, now both again in a loving relationship. From both expected to win the Tour and nothing less than that. Rather ideal and kudos to Rogla for making such move, as that is not always easy. Making room for Jonas at Visma and helping Bora win the Tour.

 

[Froome]

It’s not a hypocrisy- it’s just defence… There was a claim that Vingegaard didn’t pull when Roglic was in front. “Roglic fans” debunked this claim. That’s all there is to it. No hypocrisy and entirely believable…

And whoever perceives Roglic as the aggressor in the Kuss saga, needs a new pair of glasses. In the category of attacking and not caring about Kuss it’s 2:1 between Vingegaard and Roglic in Vuelta 2023, with Vinge leading as much as 2:0 at one point…

That's not what i was discussing, the discussion was about vingegaard or roglic attacking and the one who stayed on the bunch, don't make a move.

I was telling that roglic did the same that vingegaard did on jalavambre. They moved when the other one was at the front. So, there's no moral by roglic fans, to say that roglic didn't do what vingegaard did.

Even so, there was a difference. Vingegaard dropped everybody when he catched Roglic on jalavambre. Roglic couldn't drop ayuso on sierra de bejes, he continued to push with ayuso on his wheel, and the result was Kuss being dropped by him, when Vingegaard was at the front.
This his facts, that's what was showed on TV.

 

[bNator]

That's not what i was discussing, the discussion was about vingegaard or roglic attacking and the one who stayed on the bunch, don't make a move.

I was telling that roglic did the same that vingegaard did on jalavambre. They moved when the other one was at the front. So, there's no moral by roglic fans, to say that roglic didn't do what vingegaard did.

Even so, there was a difference. Vingegaard dropped everybody when he catched Roglic on jalavambre. Roglic couldn't drop ayuso on sierra de bejes, he continued to push with ayuso on his wheel, and the result was Kuss being dropped by him, when Vingegaard was at the front.
This his facts, that's what was showed on TV.

First of all, we need to understand something. There’s no such thing as ”Roglic fans” in terms of some sort of an entity, consisting of people sharing the same opinions on everything regarding Roglic. Sure there’s a common denominator - whishing Roglic to succeed… But that’s more or less it. For instance, I consider myself a big Roglic fan. That doesn‘t mean I support all of his actions. Far from it. Sometimes he will do things I feel quite uncomfortable about. Blaming Wright for the crash being the most obvious example. Yet whenever he’s on his bike, I somehow always want him to win. This I think makes me his fan.

So when guys on this board operate with the term “Roglic fans” in a negative way, it‘s not really fair, is it? But that’s not the biggest problem. Bigger issue is the distortion of facts in order to compensate the “Roglic fans” and reach a neutral position. If a neutral position is that both Roglic and Vingegaard don’t give a flying * about Kuss (which it is), then you don’t need to claim something that isn’t true just to balance the opinion. If one feels that exaggerations are being stated by “Roglic fans”, I think it should be enough to oppose those exaggerations by stating facts.

BTW this is not necessarily entirely targeted at you, I was speaking in general…

 

[CyclistAbi]

Nah, Rogla even played it fair on a stage where it was decided, prior to the stage, Rogla will go for the stage win due to stage being most suited for him. And suddenly, at the end of the stage, Jonas got good legs, asked and got a green light from the team car and went for it. One can only imagine on how Rogla must have felt. Played by Jonas and the team. Still, Rogla played it cool. So this alone should set the debate straight.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The key factor here really comes down to the fact Rogla and Bora share the same vision, to win the Tour. At Visma it was becoming increasingly impossible to do that. Vuelta further exposed it.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Nah, Rogla even played it fair on a stage where it was decided, prior to the stage, Rogla will go for the stage win due to stage being most suited for him. And suddenly, at the end of the stage, Jonas got good legs, asked and got a green light from the team car and went for it. One can only imagine on how Rogla must have felt. Played by Jonas and the team. Still, Rogla played it cool. So this alone should set the debate straight.

Is it just about the stage win then??? Would 'roglic fans' (I don't assume they all have the same opinion) be happy if Roglic got 3 stage wins instead of 2? Surely Roglic is too big a rider to care about one extra Vuelta stage win?

Roglic implied he wanted to race Kuss and Vingegard and I respect him for that. I agree. But if Roglic did want to race, he should be attacking from far like Vingegard did, because he was over 90 seconds down on Kuss before the start of stage 16. He was not going to pull that back by waiting for the sprints and going for stage wins like that. Vingegard anticipated the race and was smarter than Roglic.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Besides no one crashing or getting sick, it’d be pretty crazy to see Roglic and Pogacar and/or Evenepoel going off on a long range attack on stage 14 like when Roglic went with Bernal at the Vuelta. It’ll also be interesting how high Bora and UAE can keep everyone on GC.

 

[Froome]

Is it just about the stage win then??? Would 'roglic fans' (I don't assume they all have the same opinion) be happy if Roglic got 3 stage wins instead of 2? Surely Roglic is too big a rider to care about one extra Vuelta stage win?

Roglic implied he wanted to race Kuss and Vingegard and I respect him for that. I agree. But if Roglic did want to race, he should be attacking from far like Vingegard did, because he was over 90 seconds down on Kuss before the start of stage 16. He was not going to pull that back by waiting for the sprints and going for stage wins like that. Vingegard anticipated the race and was smarter than Roglic.

Roglic could also have antecipated his attack on sierra de bejes when Vingegaard asked to do an attack.

Fortunately the attack of Vingegaard happened, because if that didn't happened, we would get a boring final stage with just an attack in the last 500 m/1 km, a tribute to the sky days. When it was Sky doing that, what a boring years, when it's Roglic doing that "wow, what a attack, we all need a bit of roglstomp" 😂

 

[Oldermanish]

Roglic could also have antecipated his attack on sierra de bejes when Vingegaard asked to do an attack.

Fortunately the attack of Vingegaard happened, because if that didn't happened, we would get a boring final stage with just an attack in the last 500 m/1 km, a tribute to the sky days. When it was Sky doing that, what a boring years, when it's Roglic doing that "wow, what a attack, we all need a bit of roglstomp" 😂

Yeah, see....Roglic attacks riders from other teams and wins in the last 500m.

Jonas had the go-ahead from the car would be my guess and they were looking for a "little" separation to get Jonas securely on the podium, making other teams chase when he attacked 3.5km from the finish. Roglic had Kuss with him waited until the last 150m to accelerate and minimized Kuss' loss (-4 seconds) as much as he could. Suggestions Roglic might not have been strong enough to go away have been widely debated but are generally pointless unless the answer comes from he or Kuss.
Fortunately JV management finally put an end to the free for all and rode like a team for Kuss. It was an embarrassing situation.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Yeah as others have said, clearly it was nuanced. Roglic and Vingegaard both rode selfishly at times, but the both also ultimately delivered Kuss the win when most can agree that either could have beaten Kuss if truly raced head to head.

One thing that gets lost is Roglic was riding to tie the record for most Vuelta wins and was in pole position to do so before teams let Kuss get up front, thinking he wasn’t a threat, and the team set Vingegaard up to jump past Roglic (heavily aided by the competitors just inanely letting him ride away without even the faintest attempt to control the damage). Plus, Roglic, as many like to point out, is 34 so his opportunities are theoretically much more limited than Kuss and Vingegaard’s. Plus Vinge had already claimed the much bigger Tour prize, which Roglic was not allowed to ride. All reasons why Roglic should have really wanted this win and to be supported in it. All the Americans going off about how the team owes it to Kuss or full of ***, and I’m American. Kuss is paid to be a lieutenant.

But all in all, I don’t think there is a villain here, just competing interests between captains where only one can win. Roglic had to go to Bora to avoid that, but there’s a good reason Jumbo “chose” Vingegaard and it will be very tough for anyone to beat him.

 

[scribers]

has roglic announced his late season intentions? Why not try the Vuelta again?

 

[bNator]

has roglic announced his late season intentions? Why not try the Vuelta again?

It appears his chances are better if unannounced…

 

[CyclistAbi]

Is it just about the stage win then??? Would 'roglic fans' (I don't assume they all have the same opinion) be happy if Roglic got 3 stage wins instead of 2? Surely Roglic is too big a rider to care about one extra Vuelta stage win?

No. Obviously is not just about the stage win. It's about trust in your team and leadership position. He got none of that at Vuelta so it would be naive to expect it would be any different at the Tour. The team pushed both Sepp and Jonas ahead.

Roglic implied he wanted to race Kuss and Vingegard and I respect him for that. I agree. But if Roglic did want to race, he should be attacking from far like Vingegard did, because he was over 90 seconds down on Kuss before the start of stage 16. He was not going to pull that back by waiting for the sprints and going for stage wins like that. Vingegard anticipated the race and was smarter than Roglic.

No. First of all it's the leaders choice, on how he will race. And second he lost seconds because of the decisions of his team. Not because of his form or racing style. So in the end he had no business racing for Visma any more. They made their choice clear and it wasn't Rogla.

 

[CyclistAbi]

has roglic announced his late season intentions? Why not try the Vuelta again?

Vuelta a España
The Vuelta line-up will be decided as the season progresses. But the long list is already tailored to the Spanish race’s demanding profile. In addition to triple winner Primož Roglič, Jai Hindley, Aleksandr Vlasov, Emanuel Buchmann and Sergio Higuita also have the third Grand Tour of the year in their provisional race program. Just like in Italy, the aim is to finish in the top five in Spain as well.

BORA - hansgrohe

German Professional Cycling

www.bora-hansgrohe.com

Not 100% confirmed but the idea is to do the double yes.

 

[bNator]

Roglic could also have antecipated his attack on sierra de bejes when Vingegaard asked to do an attack.

Fortunately the attack of Vingegaard happened, because if that didn't happened, we would get a boring final stage with just an attack in the last 500 m/1 km, a tribute to the sky days. When it was Sky doing that, what a boring years, when it's Roglic doing that "wow, what a attack, we all need a bit of roglstomp" 😂

I don't think Roglic's stomps are comparable to Sky. To who exactly in Sky? Froome?

The reason why the stomp is so appreciated here is because it is incredible sight if done right. It is something only a handful of riders are capable of. Currently, apart from Roglic only Pog on his very best day...

Not every sprint victory is a stomp. Stomp is making your opponents wonder what the hell just happened. This is a stomp:

What's not to like?

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's funny on how Rogličes racing style critique correlates to cycling fans that are members of another cyclist fan club.

 

[bNator]

It's funny on how Rogličes racing style critique correlates to cycling fans that are members of another cyclist fan club.

Yes but that's to be expected....

 

[CyclistAbi]

Yes but that's to be expected....

Is it? I don't see that in Jonas, Remco or Masnada threads. Focusing on fans of this cyclists, that often bring such critique up. In addition if Jonas, Remco or Masnada would win Giro 2023 in the way Rogla did. All we would be hearing is what legends they are, just like Rogla is. But OK, at least the age BS quieted down.

 

[bNator]

Is it? I don't see that in Jonas, Remco or Masnada threads. Focusing on fans of this cyclists, that often bring such critique up. In addition if Jonas, Remco or Masnada would win Giro 2023 in the way Rogla did. All we would be hearing is what legends they are, just like Rogla is. But OK, at least the age BS quieted down.

That's not true at all. Every rider gets their fair share of critique, some more some less. Jonas for instance is often associated with juices of various forms and colours and is dissed for being a "boring personality". Remco is being doubted (sometimes by me ) he is a true GT top dog despite the fact he won a GT. You, CylistAbi, would go berserk if anyone still insisted after Roglic won 2019 Vuelta that he might not be the real deal GT contender.

I too sometimes have a feeling that Roglic is being disproportionally mistreated/disrespected by some guys here, but go to Remco thread, it's a similar story...

 

[CyclistAbi]

Still, what in my opinion this debate exposed is, it's not the racing style, that is not the problem at all, just like with age. It's more about some wishful thinking, or exaggerating about preference, trying to find something, aim being on how to make Rogla change his racing style, so some other riders would stand a chance. Thanks for helping me figure that one out @bNator.

So no, Rogla won't change his winning ways. What he did change, though, is the team. From the one that didn't want to support it any more, to the one that at least says it will. So lets hope for years of stomp to come! As what a lost that would be to cycling. Roglstomp, no more. It pains me inside, to even think about it at this point.

So lets get real. Gremo Primož!

 

[Blanco]

That's not what i was discussing, the discussion was about vingegaard or roglic attacking and the one who stayed on the bunch, don't make a move.

I was telling that roglic did the same that vingegaard did on jalavambre. They moved when the other one was at the front. So, there's no moral by roglic fans, to say that roglic didn't do what vingegaard did.

Even so, there was a difference. Vingegaard dropped everybody when he catched Roglic on jalavambre. Roglic couldn't drop ayuso on sierra de bejes, he continued to push with ayuso on his wheel, and the result was Kuss being dropped by him, when Vingegaard was at the front.
This his facts, that's what was showed on TV.

I'm going to answer on this one although I'm not sure if you're trolling or just clueless, or maybe both.
Vingegaard attacked when Roglic was 15 sec in front, and brought Enric Mas with him.
Roglic attacked 1km from the line when Vingegaard already had a minute advantage, and there's no way someone could reach him, plus when he saw he didn't dropped them, he stopped.
That's facts, and that was showed on TV.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I'm going to answer on this one although I'm not sure if you're trolling or just clueless, or maybe both.
Vingegaard attacked when Roglic was 15 sec in front, and brought Enric Mas with him.
Roglic attacked 1km from the line when Vingegaard already had a minute advantage, and there's no way someone could reach him, plus when he saw he didn't dropped them, he stopped.
That's facts, and that was showed on TV.

Spot on. I have already quitted answering because it becomes tiring to polish a turd.

 

[scribers]

I think it’s wild we are still debating Vuelta race tactics.