Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Salvarani]

Guys, he's trolling and clowning around. Why the hell are you answering?

Exactly. Just nonsense. Whatever, eh.

 

[bNator]

Guys, he's trolling and clowning around. Why the hell are you answering?

I'm afraid not...

 

[Extinction]

You're not making any sense . Panache is a style that contextless viewers attribute to a certain win or way of riding. Not having it does not affect how much one wins or if one rider wins. Pogacar in Ronde 20022 comes to mind. The only "logic" around your thinking is that you are not speaking generally by stating "riders with panache will more likely win" but taking Roglic's example as proof of what are you saying. And what is that example, exactly?

1. That because he didn't gift Mader (RIP) the peloton started getting resentful on his greed for stage wins;
2. That if had otherwise let Mader win the peloton would be more respectful towards the slovenian;
3. That ultimately 2. had a bearing on why he crashed in both 2021 and 2022.

In 2022 Roglic crashed because of a hay bale.
In 2021 Colbrelli was careless towards Roglic.

This is basically what you're saying that is remotely "logic": that a win that should have not happened in Paris Nice somehow resulted months later in a vengeful act of a rider that is a part of a peloton that agreed in giving Roglic's lack of panache its due karma. Had he gifted Mader the win, he wouldn't crash in the Tour and could win it.

Unless you argue a little bit better, I think you can be considered a troll

Hogwash! Other than better argumentation, you fail. If you don't know panache when you see it, you don't recognize anything that's been witnessed and written about cycling for over a century. I never said riders with panache win more often, just in that particular case it was required to win. What I find comically deficient about your critique, is that you fail to recognize had Roglic honorably eased back to not deprive Mader of a well-earned success, when he crashed in the leader's jersey the next day I highly doubt you'd have seen certain teams drilling it to capitalize on his misfortune. At times diplomatic riding is the better strategy.

 

[Gargamel35]

So now that trolling is echoing behind us, let's talk about Roglič TT form. I really don't know what to expect today. He's not as good on flats as he was before I think but looks like to be in great form so that should help. I still think Remco gets the best time and Ganna probably close behind. The rest of GC i think Vinge goes 20s down from Remco, Roglič 30 do 40s down. Kuss i hope can smash it and not loose all lead.

 

[Elos Anjos]

So now that trolling is echoing behind us, let's talk about Roglič TT form. I really don't know what to expect today. He's not as good on flats as he was before I think but looks like to be in great form so that should help. I still think Remco gets the best time and Ganna probably close behind. The rest of GC i think Vinge goes 20s down from Remco, Roglič 30 do 40s down. Kuss i hope can smash it and not loose all lead.

It's a bit technical and winding in the beginning, but after it I think the course has about 15km (?) of straight roads where Remco can gain momentum. How good is Roglic in his accelerations after bending?

 

[Gargamel35]

It's a bit technical and winding in the beginning, but after it I think the course has about 15km (?) of straight roads where Remco can gain momentum. How good is Roglic in his accelerations after bending?

He can be good but days when he took those risks to the limit are probably gone.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Guys you can't be seriously suggesting for Rogla to gift today's stage to Remco? That is the impression i got from reading the discussion.

When it comes to Rogla and ITT in Spain. The stats are brutal. Sorry but Rogla can't spoil that.

 

[tobydawq]

Guys you can't be seriously suggesting for Rogla to gift today's stage to Remco? That is the impression i got from reading the discussion.

That probably says more about your reading skills than much else...

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Do you guys remember when Roglic gifted the stage to Remco in Catalunya and Remco crowed about beating Roglic in the sprint? That might have cured him of the desire to gift wins.

I also remember Froome somewhat maliciously preventing his former lieutenant, Richie Porte, from winning the Dauphine I believe. Not very magnanimous.

Of course there was Lance “no gifts” Armstrong, who did occasionally give a gift in the spirit of building a book of favors.

@Extinction I think in the most pure sense you’re advocating for the heroic Greek concepts of kleos and time, with kleos referring to superficial glory, tied to perception of others, and time referring to honor, and existing within a self (if I remember my freshman honors seminar from over a decade ago correctly). And then you’re suggesting that Roglic chooses kleos (victories) over time (nobly gifting the victory), which results in unfavorable treatment by others. This is certainly possibly, as we do not live in the heroic age of Homer, and our values are not their values. In the Iliad, noble Hector, rich in time, is killed by Achilles and dragged behind a chariot. Achilles, driven by kleos, wins eternal glory and is revered by his people, despite his selfish behavior. No real point here, just enjoying the exercise.

 

[bNator]

Do you guys remember when Roglic gifted the stage to Remco in Catalunya and Remco crowed about beating Roglic in the sprint? That might have cured him of the desire to gift wins.

I also remember Froome somewhat maliciously preventing his former lieutenant, Richie Porte, from winning the Dauphine I believe. Not very magnanimous.

Of course there was Lance “no gifts” Armstrong, who did occasionally give a gift in the spirit of building a book of favors.

@Extinction I think I’m the most pure sense you’re advocating for the heroic Greek concepts of kleos and time, with kleos referring to superficial glory, tied to perception of others, and time referring to honor, and existing within a self (if I remember my freshman honors seminar from over a decade ago correctly). And then you’re suggesting that Roglic chooses kleos (victories) over time (nobly gifting the victory), which results in unfavorable treatment by others. This is certainly possibly, as we do not live in the heroic age of Homer, and our values are not their values. In the Iliad, noble Hector, rich in time, is killed by Achilles and dragged behind a chariot. Achilles, driven by kleos, wins eternal glory and is revered by his people, despite his selfish behavior. No real point here, just enjoying the exercise.

It's just the other way around actually. If you read Extinction's texts carefully, he wants Roglič to be diplomatic therefore choosing kleos (if I understood correctly) over time so that he is percieved heroic by the peloton which will benefit him later when he tries to win a stage race. The plot twist here is that in this day and age, kleos actually translates to giving away victories while time is taking the win selfishly for yourself. That's how far we've come since ancient Greece And kleos in this case, is what Extinction calls panache

Edit: unless we’re talking about Remco. The rules are slightly different in that case and panache can be both kleos and time - giving away victories, winning them for yourself or even taking them as gifts…

 

[Valv.Piti]

That probably says more about your reading skills than much else...

I still can't wrap my brain around how this guy's brain work at times. I'd love to experience for a day.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Do you guys remember when Roglic gifted the stage to Remco in Catalunya and Remco crowed about beating Roglic in the sprint? That might have cured him of the desire to gift wins.

I also remember Froome somewhat maliciously preventing his former lieutenant, Richie Porte, from winning the Dauphine I believe. Not very magnanimous.

Of course there was Lance “no gifts” Armstrong, who did occasionally give a gift in the spirit of building a book of favors.

@Extinction I think I’m the most pure sense you’re advocating for the heroic Greek concepts of kleos and time, with kleos referring to superficial glory, tied to perception of others, and time referring to honor, and existing within a self (if I remember my freshman honors seminar from over a decade ago correctly). And then you’re suggesting that Roglic chooses kleos (victories) over time (nobly gifting the victory), which results in unfavorable treatment by others. This is certainly possibly, as we do not live in the heroic age of Homer, and our values are not their values. In the Iliad, noble Hector, rich in time, is killed by Achilles and dragged behind a chariot. Achilles, driven by kleos, wins eternal glory and is revered by his people, despite his selfish behavior. No real point here, just enjoying the exercise.

While I appreciate your reinterpretation of Roglic as a modern day incarnation of arete (and really, that's what sports is about...coping mechanisms for a society that does not have to constantly war) you're doing him a favor by simpling not stating that he doesn't get his s**t straight most of the times. Seriously, attributing causality to panache is borderline new-age stuff.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I am afraid to ask again. But why are we discussing Kleos instead of Kronos? Hopefully somebody with a bit better reading skills and understanding of the matter can chime in.

 

[Miha81]

Very good ITT. Exactly what he needed to be within stricking distance.

 

[zlev11]

he looked real good. will be interesting to see how Kuss can hold up for 3 weeks, but i think Primoz can definitely take back his deficit to Remco on the terrain that's left.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Roglic did very well and is in a good position with Kuss still a min ahead of Evenepoel. As long as he’s not dropped, two to three stomps and he’s past Evenepoel.

 

[Netserk]

Depending on how well Vingegaard holds up, they can sweep the podium.

 

[Blanco]

Very good TT! Rogla is on a mission here... Kuss and Vinge wil be great allies.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Very good TT. Primoz is on a mission to get #4.

 

[Carols]

I hope he trained his ITT after the the Giro, he needs to be better than Vinge.

No problem, he was rocking it!!!

 

[Extinction]

At any rate, Rog rode an ecxcellent TT today and I'd say he's in the driver's seat to win this Vuelta, as he seems marginally better than Remco in the mountains. Unless, of course, Kuss hangs on, as he too did an excellent performance today.

PS. Wrong again @VayaVayaVaya and @bNator, the Greek term for Roglic is Paideia, "deep learning" and ΠΑΡΑ ΔΑΤΗ (SURETY BRINGS RUIN).

 

[Rackham]

Notice how Roglič was spinning his legs whilst pulling a lower gear? That's peak Rog right there. Unlike when he's really not feeling it (like in the Giro) & pulls a massive gear in the ITT to compensate.

Oh & special shoutout to Robbie McEwen on Eurosport who kept on telling himself Rog sucks at technical ITT's (as if he'd crash or something) & would like the non-technical part. Naturally the reverse was true (he's always liked technical routes whilst struggling more on the pure power flat sections). He rocketed around the first split today.

I don't usually get vexed by sport commentary but Eurosport jumped the shark today. The bias was a bit too obvious IMO.

 

[bNator]

Notice how Roglič was spinning his legs whilst pulling a lower gear? That's peak Rog right there. Unlike when he's really not feeling it (like in the Giro) & pulls a massive gear in the ITT to compensate.

I don't know - in LPDBF, he was spinning like a madman... I've accepted the fact I have no idea how he's doing in TT until I see split times. The only reliable indicator he's doing well for me is lack of saliva running from his mouth in km 5 of the course

 

[Rackham]

I don't know - in LPDBF, he was spinning like a madman... I've accepted the fact I have no idea how he's doing in TT until I see split times. The only reliable indicator he's doing well for me is lack of saliva running from his mouth in km 5 of the course

I'm referring to the flat time trials. If we go back & analyse his previous flat ITT's, he's had a tendency to pull a big gear when his overall form hasn't been so hot. It's been mentioned a few times in this thread over the past seasons.

He looked really good out there today & was pulling his 'normal' gear. A bit like the first flat section of Monte Lussari ITT (which he also did well on).

It's just an observation. I've basically got a good feeling about this Vuelta right now.

 

[Volderke]

He pulled a big gear in the last few K, but by then, he was mainly trying to consolidate his effort, and he did better than I expected.
Age seems to have no grip on Roglic; he looks as good as ever and is the most solid of the top 5 GC guys.