Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

[Red Rick]

I don't think it'd be more jarring if Boonen were dropped on a mountain by Rujano than if Rujano were dropped by Boonen in crosswinds, on cobbles, on bergs etc.

Comparing him to Rujano does not make Boonen look amazing at any rate.

 

[Netserk]

Comparing him to Rujano does not make Boonen look amazing at any rate.

Rackham compared him to anyone who would drop him on climbs in GTs. I don't think it's jarring that he'd be outclimbed by Jens Voigt.

 

[Netserk]

Rogla was arguably the best stage racer in the world for two years, and has been among the best since 2018. Outside of the Tour, he has very effectively turned that in to numerous victories, but his weak Tour results obviously knocks his status down compared to what it easily could have been.

I think it's very reasonable to rank him near Sagan.

 

[Red Rick]

Rogla was arguably the best stage racer in the world for two years, and has been among the best since 2018. Outside of the Tour, he has very effectively turned that in to numerous victories, but his weak Tour results obviously knocks his status down compared to what it easily could have been.

I still blame Jumbo for choosing Groenewegen over Roglic in 2019.

 

[Rackham]

Rackham compared him to anyone who would drop him on climbs in GTs. I don't think it's jarring that he'd be outclimbed by Jens Voigt.

All things being equal, all is fair, i.e. Boonen had his specialty and he was good at it. Good for him. But the part I'm reacting to is the initial premise made by Flamme Rouge and such cycling 'influencers' on social media who overrate classics riders - especially at this time of the year when it's topical (April namely).

Because yeah, it's funny as hell when the number one highest ranked rider in the UCI rankings (Boonen at the time) gets dropped by a whole bunch of no name gregarious in the TdF on soft cols.

It just creates a funny disconnect between what the media and pundits say are the 'best riders in the world' versus what we see on the road in a GT. The same applies to WvA & MvdP as well.

 

[Netserk]

All things being equal, all is fair, i.e. Boonen had his specialty and he was good at it. Good for him. But the part I'm reacting to is the initial premise made by Flamme Rouge and such cycling 'influencers' on social media who overrate classics riders - especially at this time of the year when it's topical (April namely).

Because yeah, it's funny as hell when the number one highest ranked rider in the UCI rankings (Boonen at the time) gets dropped by a whole bunch of no name gregarious in the TdF on soft cols.

It just creates a funny disconnect between what the media and pundits say are the 'best riders in the world' versus what we see on the road in a GT. The same applies to WvA & MvdP as well.

Stage races, and the Tour in particular, are obviously the top prize. That's also why I argued the case for Vingegaard winning Vélo d'Or in 2023.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I feel that comparing Rogla to Sagan is like comparing apples and oranges. It doesn't really make much sense.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

All things being equal, all is fair, i.e. Boonen had his specialty and he was good at it. Good for him. But the part I'm reacting to is the initial premise made by Flamme Rouge and such cycling 'influencers' on social media who overrate classics riders - especially at this time of the year when it's topical (April namely).

Because yeah, it's funny as hell when the number one highest ranked rider in the UCI rankings (Boonen at the time) gets dropped by a whole bunch of no name gregarious in the TdF on soft cols.

It just creates a funny disconnect between what the media and pundits say are the 'best riders in the world' versus what we see on the road in a GT. The same applies to WvA & MvdP as well.

Well, Roglic could also just turn up to Flanders and Roubaix. It would also be funny as hell to see him get dropped on something infinitely softer than some „soft cols“, a flat road. If Van der Poel can finish Top 60 in the Tour then Roglič should also be able to finish Top 60 in Roubaix. I guess if he did Roubaix and the 1% chance that his collarbone stays intact occured, he could get a better result than that, but don‘t say your rider is so much better just because he doesn‘t ride the races that don‘t suit him. I‘d estimate Van der Poel could win a 1v1 race against Roglič on over 90% of roads in the world, just because it‘s easier to drop someone uphill that doesn‘t mean that uphill is all that counts.

 

[Cassirer]

I‘d estimate Van der Poel could win a 1v1 race against Roglič on over 90% of roads in the world, just because it‘s easier to drop someone uphill that doesn‘t mean that uphill is all that counts.

1v1 race seems a strange format, lets take a time trial!

 

[Netserk]

Geraint Thomas is a tier below Rogla, but that is as much down to watching them race as it is results. The Tour records do a lot to somewhat even out the palmares.

Had Thomas won in 2019 too (could have been engineered in the team car), it'd be a lot harder to say that the palmares of Rogla is the better.

 

[Cycling111]

When did Bora or Visma won a GT with another rider than Jonas and Primoz? Kuss in an exception.

Bora won a Giro with Hindley. Yates and Almeida none.
Daniel Felipe Martinez second at Giro behind Pogacar, G. Thomas third.
Almeida couldn't even beat G. Thomas in 2023

Almeida has led two Giro and Vuelta and hasn´t been able to win like Hindley, or beat G. Thomas like Dani Martinez.

Not even Yates was able to compete for the Vuelta overall last year.
Those riders don´t offer guarantees as leaders in a GT.

Ayuso has more margin for age. But Almeida has definitely given up on that. This year he´ll be a domestique in GT.

 

[Red Rick]

Had Thomas won in 2019 too (could have been engineered in the team car)

Dear Netserk

Please do not make me imagine hypothetical worlds that are this much worse than the this one

Kind regards,

Red Rick

 

[Rackham]

Well, Roglic could also just turn up to Flanders and Roubaix. It would also be funny as hell to see him get dropped on something infinitely softer than some „soft cols“, a flat road. If Van der Poel can finish Top 60 in the Tour then Roglič should also be able to finish Top 60 in Roubaix. I guess if he did Roubaix and the 1% chance that his collarbone stays intact occured, he could get a better result than that, but don‘t say your rider is so much better just because he doesn‘t ride the races that don‘t suit him. I‘d estimate Van der Poel could win a 1v1 race against Roglič on over 90% of roads in the world, just because it‘s easier to drop someone uphill that doesn‘t mean that uphill is all that counts.

Dude, my rider wins the only battle that counts, i.e. the head-to-head PCS battle!

Mathieu van der Poel versus Primož Roglič

Head to head career results between Mathieu van der Poel and Primož RogliÄ. The overal score is 37.7% for Mathieu van der Poel versus 62.3% for Primož RogliÄ. A comparison on same race results, time trial points and the points per age.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Cycling111]

@Cycling111

Nah, never. Rogličes career is much better, compared if he would win Tour and become a WC. As said he can still win those two specific races in the future if he feels strongly about it but IMHO that was not the primary reason to switch teams. He switched teams to continue to do Rogla things, as a lead for Red Bull. At Visma that was just becoming increasingly impossible, for example he was not allowed to do Giro-Tour combo, if he felt doing it, he was not even allowed to win Vuelta any more ... Now not only he can still do all that it's sort of expected of him. To beat everybody in stage races and beyond, including his former team. Why not.

Has anyone read what I wrote?

At no point am I saying that Roglic's career is worse.

What I'm saying is that instead of 4 Vuelta, he'd prefer 3 Vuelta and 1 Tour de France, or 3 Vuelta and 1 road world championship.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

1v1 race seems a strange format, lets take a time trial!

1v1 race is just like a normal race, just that you don‘t have all the other riders to worry about. You could also imagine that this occurs quite often on a ride with someone, where you could say: „Hey, I bet I can beat you to some point on the road.“ In the end the vast majority of bike races require you to be strong on some shorter effort (quite to the liking of Roglič) and the time trial is much more of an odd one out as a format. We could make a significant part of our imaginary duel time trials, but I‘m not sure what bike those should be held on, I‘m guessing Roglič gains significantly from the TT bike.

Anyway, I‘m not saying Roglič isn‘t that great and he‘s possibly a greater rider than Van der Poel (although he hasn‘t won the biggest race in his specialty). But I just took issue with @Rackham ‘s ridicule of anyone who isn‘t at the weight limit trying to ride as fast as possible on tall mountains.

 

[Rackham]

1v1 race is just like a normal race, just that you don‘t have all the other riders to worry about. You could also imagine that this occurs quite often on a ride with someone, where you could say: „Hey, I bet I can beat you to some point on the road.“ In the end the vast majority of bike races require you to be strong on some shorter effort (quite to the liking of Roglič) and the time trial is much more of an odd one out as a format. We could make a significant part of our imaginary duel time trials, but I‘m not sure what bike those should be held on, I‘m guessing Roglič gains significantly from the TT bike.

Anyway, I‘m not saying Roglič isn‘t that great and he‘s possibly a greater rider than Van der Poel (although he hasn‘t won the biggest race in his specialty). But I just took issue with @Rackham ‘s ridicule of anyone who isn‘t at the weight limit trying to ride as fast as possible on tall mountains.

"Ridicule" is a strong word and doesn't really reflect the content of my posts. But regardless, I won't beat around the bush here, i.e. there are pretty much 9 major races on the cycling calendar. 5 monuments, 3 GT's and one world championship. Those nine are the major prizes. And specialization was obviously always the way to go when targeting any of them (at least for a long time since the 1980's until Pog recently changed the cycling landscape).

What I won't accept is anyone smack talking about the Giro and claiming it's a lesser race than Roubaix (as Flamme Rouge did on X last night) just because Pog is targeting Roubaix now instead of the Giro again. That's asinine to the highest degree.

The basic fact is Rog is about to target his 6th GT win next month. And five is already a substantial number of major GT wins. It's the sort of palmarès that's definitely earned him a place at the table of top riders lists, certainly relative his era and adversaries (it stands to reason if people are saying Pog is the 'best ever', then losing a TdF versus Pog in 2020 under those circumstances would entail no shame, right?).

 

[Luthor]

It also totally depends on whether the stages even go ahead as they're currently planned.

This is the Giro. Things change, like the weather... or the peloton itself decides to go on strike for xyz reason. I think Rog and Red Bull simply need to be prepared to strike out and score when there's an opportunity and not stress about the ideal path to victory.

I also think Ayuso might prove to be stronger in the ITT's as well, so there's that to take into consideration.

I still favor Rog more in term of ITTs, Ayuso struggles with long ITTs. Anyway the difference won't be made there, it's all about the mountains.

For Roglic, the opposite would be ideal: lots of mountain stages, tough but not incredibly tough, spread out over the three weeks, and if possible with the steepest climb in terms of gradient at the end, Vuelta-style.
On this course, if he wants to finish the Giro before the final tappones, he'll have to step out of his comfort zone a bit and try it in the mid-mountain and hilly stages or take advantage of the stages that end in downhill. He can do all of that with the necessary motivation, but he'd definitely prefer a couple of Moncalvillos or Ancares stages where he could reach 7 w/kg and give eveybody a run for his money.
In any case, he's still the favorite on this course against these rivals.

Roglic could probably attack on the last climbs in stages like 7 or 16 then defend on the final stages. In Vuelta he was screwed because BOC was ahead of him but otherwise he wouldn't have attacked that early. It will be on UAE to try and use their numeric advantage. Like if Yates attacks early do you let him

 

[CyclistAbi]

Well, Roglic could also just turn up to Flanders and Roubaix. It would also be funny as hell to see him get dropped on something infinitely softer than some „soft cols“, a flat road. If Van der Poel can finish Top 60 in the Tour then Roglič should also be able to finish Top 60 in Roubaix. I guess if he did Roubaix and the 1% chance that his collarbone stays intact occured, he could get a better result than that, but don‘t say your rider is so much better just because he doesn‘t ride the races that don‘t suit him. I‘d estimate Van der Poel could win a 1v1 race against Roglič on over 90% of roads in the world, just because it‘s easier to drop someone uphill that doesn‘t mean that uphill is all that counts.

Just wondering, would you write the exact same thing in regards to Jonas?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Has anyone read what I wrote?

At no point am I saying that Roglic's career is worse.

Darn, you are right.

What I'm saying is that instead of 4 Vuelta, he'd prefer 3 Vuelta and 1 Tour de France, or 3 Vuelta and 1 road world championship.

What Rogla will do instead is he will win both on top of everything else he already won, as that is on how GOAT stage racer does it.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Just wondering, would you write the exact same thing in regards to Jonas?

Probably not exactly the same since Jonas has already won the biggest bike race in the world two times while Roglič will only do it this year
But if someone wrote in the Jonas thread that they find it really funny that classics stars get dropped so easily on mountains, I‘d be happy to point out that Jonas wouldn‘t do well in Flanders or Roubaix either. It‘s not like I‘m Jonas‘s biggest fan and he spends even more of his year starving himself on Teide.

 

[Netserk]

Probably not exactly the same since Jonas has already won the biggest bike race in the world two times while Roglič will only do it this year
But if someone wrote in the Jonas thread that they find it really funny that classics stars get dropped so easily on mountains, I‘d be happy to point out that Jonas wouldn‘t do well in Flanders or Roubaix either. It‘s not like I‘m Jonas‘s biggest fan and he spends even more of his year starving himself on Teide.

I don't think he will be on Teide this year (before winter).

 

[CyclistAbi]

Probably not exactly the same since Jonas has already won the biggest bike race in the world two times while Roglič will only do it this year

Fair point, you will only praise Rogla once he wins the Tour. And Worlds?

But if someone wrote in the Jonas thread that they find it really funny that classics stars get dropped so easily on mountains, I‘d be happy to point out that Jonas wouldn‘t do well in Flanders or Roubaix either. It‘s not like I‘m Jonas‘s biggest fan and he spends even more of his year starving himself on Teide.

Actually this whole debate started as somebody wrote Rogla is basically nobody, compared to some other proper riders. Like there really is a long list of riders that can be considered to be ahead of Rogla, historically speaking.

 

[Sciatic]

All things being equal, all is fair, i.e. Boonen had his specialty and he was good at it. Good for him. But the part I'm reacting to is the initial premise made by Flamme Rouge and such cycling 'influencers' on social media who overrate classics riders - especially at this time of the year when it's topical (April namely).

Because yeah, it's funny as hell when the number one highest ranked rider in the UCI rankings (Boonen at the time) gets dropped by a whole bunch of no name gregarious in the TdF on soft cols.

It just creates a funny disconnect between what the media and pundits say are the 'best riders in the world' versus what we see on the road in a GT. The same applies to WvA & MvdP as well.

That’s just the nature of the sport. Usain Bolt would get demolished by distance runners in the 5,000 meters, but athletes don’t do all the different events even though they’re in the same sport. In road cycling the same riders ride the full range of races, including some that don’t suit them as well.

 

[CyclistAbi]

And lets not forget Mathieu van der Poel didn't get Vélo d'Or that year he deserved it. Indication on what is worth more in pro road cycling. On top of that biggest teams in pro peloton are usually not the ones oriented towards classics. Hierarchy is hence rather clear regardless if one likes it or not.

 

[Cycling111]

And lets not forget Mathieu van der Poel didn't get Vélo d'Or that year he deserved it. Indication on what is worth more in pro road cycling. On top of that biggest teams in pro peloton are usually not the ones oriented towards classics. Hierarchy is hence rather clear regardless if one likes it or not.

They gave Vingegaard Vélo d'Or for the Tour, but in 2020 they didn't give it to Pogacar for winning the Tour

There's no a specific criteria por Vélo d'Or. They're journalist subjetive votes.