Teams & Riders Fabio Jakobsen thread

[AlfaLum]

Everyone can see you're trying hard to push a narrative by taking the accident out of its context and compare with real life situations. Making it way worse and making Groenewegen look a like a murderer. We got it already from your previous posts, you hate Jumbo but your hatred in this serious situation is getting out of hand. You're comparing the accident to a murder and you call it 1:1, how terrible can you be? This is a competition, not something out free on the street.

I'm not a fan of either rider and Groenewegen going out and trying to put himself in a positive note was terrible but Jakobsen fans using comparisons out of context to make the guy a murderer is just as stupid.

Groenewegen's actions in that sprint were one of the worst i ever saw. There was no other person involved, no corner, no nothing. And still he moved towards the fences in two phases and then elbowed Jakobsen into the fence. Of course he didn't close that door to injure Jakobsen. He closed that door in extreme fashion to win the race, hoping that Jakobsen would touch his brakes.

I think the whole debate is really difficult because some people judge this as an incident like many others. Some other people however (myself included) think that Groenewegens action was more extreme than most of the other actions i have seen. And then he has the bad luck that on top of that the outcome of his actions is very extreme. In that sense i do think that driving while watching your phone is very much the same. If you look at your phone without causing an accident people might call you stupid or an idiot but that is that. If you look at your phone and you do cause an accident that nearly costs someone his/her life i think that people are justified when calling you a little more than that.

So for me, yes it happened during sports and people have to be aware there are more risks involved there. But Groenewegen did take extreme risks with his move and thereby played with other peoples health. And unfortunately for him the consequences were very bad. But of course he shouldnt be called a murderer either.

 

[Bonimenier]

Well... The "Groenewegen trying to score cheap popularity points" can also be viewed as him venting his feelings after almost a year of scrutiny and threats.
Some months ago i already felt like it's kinda inhumane from Fabio to not engage in a meeting or respond to him looking for contact but the whole Groenewegen PR thing is just a whole new spin to this already weird story.

Inhumane from Jakobsen? Really? The guy had a major traumatic incident which could have ended his life. He can take all the time he wants before meeting the rider who is responsible for that for a large part. Or even not meet with him at all.

 

[spalco]

Inhumane from Jakobsen? Really? The guy had a major traumatic incident which could have ended his life. He can take all the time he wants before meeting the rider who is responsible for that for a large part. Or even not meet with him at all.

Don't forget also, that even if he gets back to 100% of the level he was before (unlikely), he still has lifelong consequences, he lost half his teeth, parts of his jaw, his skull was broken, etc. All of that can easily become an issue again in 10, 20, 30 years for him, lowering his quality of life considerably as he ages. Even if he "gets over it" mentally, his body won't.

 

[Luthor]

It has happened. In football for example there's a difference between a "normal" foul with unfortunate consequences or an unprovoked attack that can only be viewed as an assault, especially when it results in an injury. Just because it happens on the pitch doesn't mean it's immune to legal action.

To use a really extreme example, an American Football player knowingly accepts risks on the field, even severe risks, but not another player pulling out a gun Last Boy Scout style and shooting his way free to the end zone (or possibly even just a lack of regulations regarding concussions, to make the example more realistic).

If an injury is caused by an action that's either totally unrelated to the accepted way the sport is run or the sports authority is knowingly overlooking critical safety measures, it could well be a question for the courts to handle.

(imo the Groenewegen-Jakobsen incident is not over the line, but if Jakobsen wants to push it in court, that's his right)

There are some very bad fouls in football where the guy doesn't have the ball and it ends up being taken to hospital and out for several months. It's not gonna be considered an assault, except for the fans of the injured guy. The guy who did the foul gets a red card, a fine and a month suspension at best. The injured guy might never reach that level ever again.

Jakobsen can go for legal court if he feels Groenewegen got away too easy. My issue is with people taking the situation out of context only to fit their narrative and comparing it with murder. They're basically in the same category as Lefevere. If for Lefevere is somehow understandable because the guy is directly affected, all the people who makes this poor comparisons here make no sense.

I'm guessing Jakobsen demanded a lot of stuff in that meeting knowing Lefevere and Groenewegen denied them. Groenewegen tried to put himself in a good light knowing that Jakobsen wasn't happy. So Jakobsen obviously take his revenge by going 2 days before the Giro with some incriminating tweets. Honestly I'm dissapointed by both riders, Groenewegen for not stfu and trying to make as everything is settled and Jakobsen for going full Lefevere/lawyers route and trying to ruin Groenewegen's return. I don't think the peloton is gonna be happy with either of them. All the good feelings regarding Jakobsen's return are kinda gone, at least for me.

 

[Bonimenier]

There are some very bad fouls in football where the guy doesn't have the ball and it ends up being taken to hospital and out for several months. It's not gonna be considered an assault, except for the fans of the injured guy. The guy who did the foul gets a red card, a fine and a month suspension at best. The injured guy might never reach that level ever again.

Jakobsen can go for legal court if he feels Groenewegen got away too easy. My issue is with people taking the situation out of context only to fit their narrative and comparing it with murder. They're basically in the same category as Lefevere. If for Lefevere is somehow understandable because the guy is directly affected, all the people who makes this poor comparisons here make no sense.

I'm guessing Jakobsen demanded a lot of stuff in that meeting knowing Lefevere and Groenewegen denied them. Groenewegen tried to put himself in a good light knowing that Jakobsen wasn't happy. So Jakobsen obviously take his revenge by going 2 days before the Giro with some incriminating tweets. Honestly I'm dissapointed by both riders, Groenewegen for not stfu and trying to make as everything is settled and Jakobsen for going full Lefevere/lawyers route and trying to ruin Groenewegen's return. I don't think the peloton is gonna be happy with either of them. All the good feelings regarding Jakobsen's return are kinda gone, at least for me.

Barely any rider will have misfeeling towards Jakobsen because of his tweets. How can you even think that? I saw quite some pro riders even liking the tweets.

 

[Red Rick]

There are some very bad fouls in football where the guy doesn't have the ball and it ends up being taken to hospital and out for several months. It's not gonna be considered an assault, except for the fans of the injured guy. The guy who did the foul gets a red card, a fine and a month suspension at best. The injured guy might never reach that level ever again.

Jakobsen can go for legal court if he feels Groenewegen got away too easy. My issue is with people taking the situation out of context only to fit their narrative and comparing it with murder. They're basically in the same category as Lefevere. If for Lefevere is somehow understandable because the guy is directly affected, all the people who makes this poor comparisons here make no sense.

I'm guessing Jakobsen demanded a lot of stuff in that meeting knowing Lefevere and Groenewegen denied them. Groenewegen tried to put himself in a good light knowing that Jakobsen wasn't happy. So Jakobsen obviously take his revenge by going 2 days before the Giro with some incriminating tweets. Honestly I'm dissapointed by both riders, Groenewegen for not stfu and trying to make as everything is settled and Jakobsen for going full Lefevere/lawyers route and trying to ruin Groenewegen's return. I don't think the peloton is gonna be happy with either of them. All the good feelings regarding Jakobsen's return are kinda gone, at least for me.

There's been at least one case of a pro footballer being convicted for assault for a tackle he made in the Eredivisie.

Jakobsen has every right to piss on Groenewegens return if they haven't settled their differences and the latter wants to pretend they did.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's an awful lot of people forgetting, or sweeping under the carpet, the role played by Czesław Lang and his organisational team here. Yes, Groenewegen's move in the sprint was bad, but we've seen other, at least equal, if not worse actions take place in the sprint in living memory (Theo Bos literally wrestling Daryl Impey off his bike, for example). We've seen some very divisive incidents involving riders pinching people into the barriers or veering from side to side in the sprint (Cavendish on Haußler, Sagan on Cavendish, Ferrari in the 2012 Giro stage to name but three), and I can totally understand if Dylan Groenewegen looks at incidents like that and feels he has been unreasonably vilified (and also totally understand others not seeing it that way and feeling his reckless actions to be worse - they certainly feel that way to me as an outsider). But of course Groenewegen is not going to take sole responsibility for the accident if he feels - and it would be totally reasonable for him to do so - that while he was in the wrong, if it had not been for the race organisers' negligence of their responsibility to the riders to provide a safe racing environment, the consequences faced by Jakobsen would have been nothing like as bad.

The crash took place on a poorly-chosen, dangerous downhill sprint finish where control is decreased and speed is increased, and then shoring up the finishing line structure with bricks that Jakobsen was sent catapulting into, and there's no way that that did not contribute, if not to the cause of the accident, then at least to the severity of the injuries suffered by Jakobsen. Much like Michael Matthews and the metal posts with cones on top of them in País Vasco a few years ago, the race organisers dropped the ball on providing adequate safety precautions for riders going at the speed they were going. Yes, the chances of a rider going head first at the finish and striking those bricks was small, and it was only because of reckless and dangerous riding that it happened, but it would have been possible for the same outcome to be arrived at by a pure accident, especially if the weather was bad. Groenewegen's irresponsible racing shouldn't be allowed to let the organisers get off scot free for their part in Jakobsen's injuries. If the crash in País Vasco had been caused by a rider being squeezed out into those poles, and was asked to shoulder 100% of the blame for any injuries sustained, they would have every right to claim that the race organisers' negligence is at least a contributory factor to the outcome.

 

[jmdirt]

Well... The "Groenewegen trying to score cheap popularity points" can also be viewed as him venting his feelings after almost a year of scrutiny and threats.
Some months ago i already felt like it's kinda inhumane from Fabio to not engage in a meeting or respond to him looking for contact but the whole Groenewegen PR thing is just a whole new spin to this already weird story.

I 100% disagree.

 

[memyselfandI]

There's an awful lot of people forgetting, or sweeping under the carpet, the role played by Czesław Lang and his organisational team here.

Hindsight JV and DQS should have joined and sued race organisation together to the end. I guess they still could.

 

[Luthor]

There's been at least one case of a pro footballer being convicted for assault for a tackle he made in the Eredivisie.

Jakobsen has every right to piss on Groenewegens return if they haven't settled their differences and the latter wants to pretend they did.

That's only one side of the coin. Groenewegen didn't say he apologised or shared any specifics regarding the meeting. Of course going that they kinda settled was a terrible move by Groenewegen but Jakobsen's tweets are doing him no favors, leaving himself open for others to question him. I think most people who have no bone in this beef would rather see this settled peacefully and in a gentleman's manner.

The legal proceedings would have already taken place, with or without Jakobsen's tweets. Jakobsen said nothing all this time yet he comes out right before Giro with some tweets written by lawyers. These tweets are putting both riders in a bad light imo, especially for people who are not a fan of either of them.

Barely any rider will have misfeeling towards Jakobsen because of his tweets. How can you even think that? I saw quite some pro riders even liking the tweets.

Yet no rider took any stance of support in terms of those tweets. Not even journalists or twitter editors. They just reported it and that's it. They clearly want to stay out of this mess. Let cycling fans devour each other exactly as it happens here. The peloton is gonna do the same, they're gonna try to stay out of it. Some riders might think this case should go to the legal court, others don't.

So it creates a mixed reaction towards Jakobsen because of his legal endeavor and the way he decided to take revenge. If Groenewegen gets punished, this would a create a precedent. I think most riders won't support for punishments to go over legal courts especially when UCI and the organiser share no blame.

I think I'm gonna do the same and stay out of this mess. The discussion doesn't progress to anything objective imo.

 

[roundabout]

I mean it's all well and good to be pointing at the barriers, finish and so on, but again, it would be dealing with the consequences and not the cause. Having a finish that was not safe doesn't make moves like Groenewegen's more acceptable.

 

[roundabout]

Well... The "Groenewegen trying to score cheap popularity points" can also be viewed as him venting his feelings after almost a year of scrutiny and threats.
Some months ago i already felt like it's kinda inhumane from Fabio to not engage in a meeting or respond to him looking for contact but the whole Groenewegen PR thing is just a whole new spin to this already weird story.

Maybe something get's lost in translation as it often does, but it seems rather obvious that Groenewegen tried to portray their meeting in the most favorable way possible for himself.

The more likely story is that it was a meeting brokered by lawyers instead of Groenewegen's private initiative to say directly to Jakobsen that he was truly sorry for the harm that he caused.

 

[Salvarani]

Who cares what the story is...

They moving on.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Too be fair, Cavendish and Haussler both moved into the other but Cavendish did deviate from his line at least double the amount Haussler did when they met in the middle.

I think all of this should have stayed privately or just out that they talked. Something still going unchecked is the barriers, stay finish, and road furniture. In a way I feel like they like the crashes for the "excitement", like fights breaking out in hockey or baseball. Heck I went to a flat track race for work and the only time anyone cheered was when someone crashed.

Groenewegen served his time but Jakobsen has to serve this his whole life. I don't even know if sorry would cut it as an accident to this extent hasn't happened.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I mean it's all well and good to be pointing at the barriers, finish and so on, but again, it would be dealing with the consequences and not the cause. Having a finish that was not safe doesn't make moves like Groenewegen's more acceptable.

Sure, but do you think Groenewegen gets a suspension if Jakobsen is fine to start the next day? Reffing the consequence and not the cause is what has been going on all along whether we like it or not, and it took both Groenewegen and Lang to create the set of circumstances that caused the accident to be as bad as it was. Without Groenewegen's recklessness and dangerous riding, the organisers get away with their actions and go on with their day... but with a less dangerous finish at a slower speed and with more appropriate safety provisions, Groenewegen's recklessness and dangerous riding causes an accident, yes, and maybe even injuries, but Jakobsen is far less likely to have been as injured as he was, and most likely Groenewegen gets a relegation or at worst is thrown out of the race, because after the incident and the response. The UCI is also partly culpable because they haven't policed people moving in the sprint unless it causes an accident, regardless of how egregious the move is, then they felt pressured to do something about Groenewegen given the severity of the injuries caused and the outrage at the time.

I mean, we fans as a collective called for heads to roll and for sprints to be better policed against riders changing lanes or barging one another in the wake of the Jakobsen crash... and then a month later we're having arguments about whether it's fair that the stricter enforcement of those rules meant Peter Sagan got relegated for exactly that offence, robbing us of what had been an exciting green jersey battle, because it was a far more contentious example, on a much safer finish, and bumping a rider who was able to respond as they had more space and were going at a slower speed, and everybody stayed upright and the incident was an inconsequential footnote if not for the points penalty. Complaining about reffing the outcome not the offence only works if we have consistency in the reffing of the offence, which we don't. I totally understand if Groenewegen feels he's been singled out because of an outcome that was worse because of circumstances out of his control - but of course that doesn't make him any less guilty of causing the accident by riding like a psycho in the first place.

 

[IndianCyclist]

If somebody ends up in the hospital like Fabio due to a car crashing into them(DUI or otherwise), i doubt they will be in a forgiving mood just after a year and ready to sing Kumbayah together. These things take decades if at all.

 

[jmdirt]

That's only one side of the coin. Groenewegen didn't say he apologised or shared any specifics regarding the meeting. Of course going that they kinda settled was a terrible move by Groenewegen but Jakobsen's tweets are doing him no favors, leaving himself open for others to question him. I think most people who have no bone in this beef would rather see this settled peacefully and in a gentleman's manner.

The legal proceedings would have already taken place, with or without Jakobsen's tweets. Jakobsen said nothing all this time yet he comes out right before Giro with some tweets written by lawyers. These tweets are putting both riders in a bad light imo, especially for people who are not a fan of either of them.


Yet no rider took any stance of support in terms of those tweets. Not even journalists or twitter editors. They just reported it and that's it. They clearly want to stay out of this mess. Let cycling fans devour each other exactly as it happens here. The peloton is gonna do the same, they're gonna try to stay out of it. Some riders might think this case should go to the legal court, others don't.

So it creates a mixed reaction towards Jakobsen because of his legal endeavor and the way he decided to take revenge. If Groenewegen gets punished, this would a create a precedent. I think most riders won't support for punishments to go over legal courts especially when UCI and the organiser share no blame.

I think I'm gonna do the same and stay out of this mess. The discussion doesn't progress to anything objective imo.

"I'll make all of my assertions, and then stay out of it." Wait, what?! By stating your thoughts you are in.

There is a quite a bit of objective discussion in this tread.

 

[Naico]

My take (spoiler: this might be highly unpopular):

Groenewegen recently through interviews made it seem like they had a good conversation, that they both felt good about it and feels like he can move on from there. In the meantime he’s expressed he felt sorry for what happened...
Now I can imagine that different media, colleagues within the peloton, friends etc. started asking Jakobsen about that conversation. He’s also had to read about it. The good news show and well wishes and support for Groenewegen on social media included.
If indeed with that context in mind, Dylan hasn’t personally apologized and hasn’t been really remorseful towards him th I can understand that just doesn’t sit right with Jakobsen. The guy went through an awful physical and mental ordeal..Dylan handling this in a way which allows Fabio to get closure is extremely important for him.

I hope both of them can finally come out of this ok but I still find it pretty baffling how the majority of people online are acting like this was just a random thing that occurred.
Somehow Fabio should watch his mouth because that would just harm Dylan again..I mean really?! Twilight zone *** right there.

Let’s say a drunk driver runs over someone nearly killing him. And everyone giving the guy who got ran over *** because he states that the driver hasn’t apologized. This is just too crazy for my understanding.

Again I wish both of them well, but the way people are approaching this and somehow blaming Jakobsen is straight up nuts.

 

[Luthor]

"I'll make all of my assertions, and then stay out of it." Wait, what?! By stating your thoughts you are in.

There is a quite a bit of objective discussion in this tread.

Obviously I meant for further discussion.
Did you look at the previous pages as well? I don't know how much "quite" means for you but for me it's not enough. People feel the need to make non-sensical comparisons to prove their point because otherwise their arguments would look ridiculous. I guess for you even forums for football teams look "quite" objective. It's the same feeling as this thread.

 

[jmdirt]

Obviously I meant for further discussion.
Did you look at the previous pages as well? I don't know how much "quite" means for you but for me it's not enough. People feel the need to make non-sensical comparisons to prove their point because otherwise their arguments would look ridiculous. I guess for you even forums for football teams look "quite" objective. It's the same feeling as this thread.

I've read the thread for quite some time and probably have a post on most of the pages. There's enough objective for me to keep reading.
The NFL thread here is objective most of the time.

 

[jmdirt]

Obviously I meant for further discussion.
Did you look at the previous pages as well? I don't know how much "quite" means for you but for me it's not enough. People feel the need to make non-sensical comparisons to prove their point because otherwise their arguments would look ridiculous. I guess for you even forums for football teams look "quite" objective. It's the same feeling as this thread.

High speed finish
Dangerous fence, blocks, etc.
Dangerous move by DG
Horrendous crash by FJ made worse by speed, fence and blocks
DG sanctioned
FJ months of horrible surgeries and recovery
FJ a year of mental/emotional distress
DG tells the media that the two met and its all good
FJ says that all is not good


Those are the facts (maybe poorly summarized but...). Not subjective or objective, just the events that happened. If you'll remember from above, I loved the way that DG sprinted, and really had no feeling one way or another about FJ before this so its not about "fanboy" reactions. Granted I don't live in Euroland so I'm not reading the Belge/Dutch rags, but the news that makes it to the USA doesn't make DG or JV look too good.

 

[Berflamand]

He finally has new teeth! He looks good and really happy.

Fabio Jakobsen straalt met nieuw gebit: "Ik ben ontzettend dankbaar" | sporza

Acht maanden na zijn horrorcrash in de Ronde van Polen heeft Fabio Jakobsen opnieuw een stralende witte glimlach. De Nederlandse spurter verloor in Polen bijna al zijn tanden, maar heeft nu een nieuw gebit gekregen. "Het ziet er fantastisch uit en ik ben ontzettend dankbaar", klinkt het.

sporza.be

 

[Red Rick]

Looks like a bunch of facial motor nerve damage sadly.

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

Looks like a bunch of facial motor nerve damage sadly.

Yeah., sadly it seems so.
will there be a civil court case cor the damages with Groenewegen?

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah., sadly it seems so.
will there be a civil court case cor the damages with Groenewegen?

I believe the legal dispustes are ongoing?