Teams & Riders Fabio Jakobsen thread

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You don't have to equate to think that it is at least in very bad taste to say that you 'had a heart-to-heart and worked through it' when talking about the person you acidentally stabbed in the eye (this actually happened when someone slammed someone's head in a birthday cake but it turned out that there were woorden sticks inside to Maintain the cake's structure).

You shut up and let that person talk on whether it has actually been worked through.

And becausr People tend to just Attack comparisons without giving a different example we can compare it with football where some tackles were super irresponsible and caused much more damage than ever intended as a result.
 
Nov 24, 2020
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I really don't see how this is going at the expense of Jakobsen. The whole situation is difficult for everybody, and I think it's good that we also try to remember that Groenewegen is also still a person who's gone through a very hard time.

Why are we supposed to feel empathy for just one person here? Not you necessarily, but I have a feeling that too many people here are equating what Groenewegen did with manslaughter/murder, which is imo very unhealthy and might say something about those persons.
Exacyly.. It was just a very unfortunate race accident, but ever since that day Groenewegen is being told he should be put in jail and has even had police patrolling around his house because there was so much hate towards him.
Then people also seems to have missed this interview which showed a trully broken man where he literally even says "sorry for my mistake":
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyQbfofEwTQ

Honestly almost everyone liked Fabio because of his character but he's been pulled into this legal mess by his team which is kinda sad.
Blaming Groenewegen for the consequences instead of just his faulty move in the sprint is what makes people turn negative about Fabio since he could have just blamed the Tour of Poland with their yearly downhill sprint. It's inhumane and shows a very skewed view of reality imo.
 
the comparison doesn't make sense
It makes perfect sense. It's against the rules, you know you shouln't do it, or that you risk putting other people in danger. When you actually end up putting someone in the hospital or worse, it was never the intention.

I really don't see how this is going at the expense of Jakobsen. The whole situation is difficult for everybody, and I think it's good that we also try to remember that Groenewegen is also still a person who's gone through a very hard time.

Why are we supposed to feel empathy for just one person here? Not you necessarily, but I have a feeling that too many people here are equating what Groenewegen did with manslaughter/murder, which is imo very unhealthy and might say something about those persons.
It's at the expense of the victim, because insinuating you had a good meeting is insinuating there was some closure. When that's not the case, it's nothing but a slap in the face of Jakobsen, literally adding insult to injury.

And you can feel sorry for Groenewegen all you want. Nobody will deny he's had it rough, but people in the process of feeling sorry for him and feeling he'd been punished enough/too much, forget that Jakobsen did nothing wrong and will be punished for the rest of his life. I think he's entitled to feeling screwed, especially since it seems like Groenewegen met with Jakobsen, not for Jakobsen's benefit, but for his own.
 
It makes perfect sense. It's against the rules, you know you shouln't do it, or that you risk putting other people in danger. When you actually end up putting someone in the hospital or worse, it was never the intention.

It's at the expense of the victim, because insinuating you had a good meeting is insinuating there was some closure. When that's not the case, it's nothing but a slap in the face of Jakobsen, literally adding insult to injury.

And you can feel sorry for Groenewegen all you want. Nobody will deny he's had it rough, but people in the process of feeling sorry for him and feeling he'd been punished enough/too much, forget that Jakobsen did nothing wrong and will be punished for the rest of his life. I think he's entitled to feeling screwed, especially since it seems like Groenewegen met with Jakobsen, not for Jakobsen's benefit, but for his own.
The comparison only works if it suits your narrative.

If you truly feel that way, then you should also believe in punishing riders for near accidents where they were in the wrong.


I don't feel more sorry for Groenewegen than I do for Jakobsen, because ofcourse even how rough Groenewegen had it mentally, it pales in comparison to what Jakobsen has gone through (and still is going through). Ofcourse he may feel entitled to feeling screwed, but even how bad the entire situation is, it's not up to him to decide how we should feel about Groenewegen. And the last remark really is an assumption I am not cynical enough for to make.
 
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The comparison only works if it suits your narrative.

If you truly feel that way, then you should also believe in punishing riders for near accidents where they were in the wrong.


I don't feel more sorry for Groenewegen than I do for Jakobsen, because ofcourse even how rough Groenewegen had it mentally, it pales in comparison to what Jakobsen has gone through (and still is going through). Ofcourse he may feel entitled to feeling screwed, but even how bad the entire situation is, it's not up to him to decide how we should feel about Groenewegen. And the last remark really is an assumption I am not cynical enough for to make.
How on earth does it suit a narrative, it's about as 1:1 as it gets. When you get caught by the cops for using your smartphone while driving, you get a slap on the wrist, a fine. When you actually kill somebody, it goes to court and you don't get away with paying a fine.
 
It makes perfect sense. It's against the rules, you know you shouln't do it, or that you risk putting other people in danger. When you actually end up putting someone in the hospital or worse, it was never the intention.


It's at the expense of the victim, because insinuating you had a good meeting is insinuating there was some closure. When that's not the case, it's nothing but a slap in the face of Jakobsen, literally adding insult to injury.

And you can feel sorry for Groenewegen all you want. Nobody will deny he's had it rough, but people in the process of feeling sorry for him and feeling he'd been punished enough/too much, forget that Jakobsen did nothing wrong and will be punished for the rest of his life. I think he's entitled to feeling screwed, especially since it seems like Groenewegen met with Jakobsen, not for Jakobsen's benefit, but for his own.
I think Jakobsen will never get closure if he pursues a "I must get money from Groenewegen as compensation" route.

And by perpetuating the "Groenewegen is a villain" narrative (which is what his Tweets are all about), it does nothing to ever solve the core problem, i.e. which let's face facts here is the barrier & sprint safety situation, because that's what will save future riders, i.e. not punishing & roasting Groenewegen in the public sphere again, again & again which is just ammunition for online warriors of all stripes. Groenewegen was already punished for his sport offense. But crashes (caused for whatever reasons) happen all the time in cycling & a world which decides to apply the civilian penal code to cycling accidents/crashes is a serious rabbit hole no one can seriously consider would be good news.

And if Groenewegen has his career ruined by this (or faces financial ruin himself as a result), then yeah, he's also a victim. Because he never set out to murder someone with premeditation or destroy Jakobsen's career that morning before the sprint in Poland.

How on earth does it suit a narrative, it's about as 1:1 as it gets. When you get caught by the cops for using your smartphone while driving, you get a slap on the wrist, a fine. When you actually kill somebody, it goes to court and you don't get away with paying a fine.
Groenewegen was suspended. This is also sport we're talking about (a very dangerous one under normal circumstances), i.e. comparable to when an F1 driver causes an accident, or when a footballer goes in for a tackle which cripples his opponent.

Comparing that to civilian road accidents involving real felonies (for example) is not exactly accurate. And the punishment should obviously have zero relation to the example you posted.
 
How on earth does it suit a narrative, it's about as 1:1 as it gets. When you get caught by the cops for using your smartphone while driving, you get a slap on the wrist, a fine. When you actually kill somebody, it goes to court and you don't get away with paying a fine.
Everyone can see you're trying hard to push a narrative by taking the accident out of its context and compare with real life situations. Making it way worse and making Groenewegen look a like a murderer. We got it already from your previous posts, you hate Jumbo but your hatred in this serious situation is getting out of hand. You're comparing the accident to a murder and you call it 1:1, how terrible can you be? This is a competition, not something out free on the street.

I'm not a fan of either rider and Groenewegen going out and trying to put himself in a positive note was terrible but Jakobsen fans using comparisons out of context to make the guy a murderer is just as stupid.
 
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I am not a Jumbo hater (why should I be?), I am totally with Logic here.
Of course you are, you also used a comparison with a drunk driver to push the same narrative. The narrative that the accident wasn't actually in a competition context and that legal proceedings should happen. How is a drunk driver even close to the situation from the accident? Makes no sense to me.
 
By the way I think sending Groenewegen to the Giro was not the best step. Keep it down a bit, don't talk much in public, yeah, I think that would have been a more decent stance.
On the contrary, it brings everything back to what the sport is really about: winning bike races.

I don't see why JV should withhold their best sprint option when they're just like everybody else in this sport (including Deceuninck): here to win bikes races.

Groenewegen served his suspension so that should be that. And just to reiterate my previous point: this is a bike race, i.e. where contestants are required to go as fast as possible, race as hard a possible & fight as hard as possible for the win.

That's what gives us entertainment (not meandering around respecting road safety rules). Groenewegen made a mistake, went way too far & was punished. But crashes in the peloton happen all the time (& yeah, often by guys swerving, cutting others off or shoulder barging/headbutting opponents). It just usually has far less incidence & consequences.

I just think some guys have lost all perspective because the camera shots in the final sprint finish perfectly captured the moment & the consequences (caused by sh*t barriers) were so severe.
 
I think Jakobsen will never get closure if he pursues a "I must get money from Groenewegen as compensation" route.

And by perpetuating the "Groenewegen is a villain" narrative (which is what his Tweets are all about), it does nothing to ever solve the core problem, i.e. which let's face facts here is the barrier & sprint safety situation, because that's what will save future riders, i.e. not punishing & roasting Groenewegen in the public sphere again, again & again which is just ammunition for online warriors of all stripes. Groenewegen was already punished for his sport offense. But crashes (caused for whatever reasons) happen all the time in cycling & a world which decides to apply the civilian penal code to cycling accidents/crashes is a serious rabbit hole no one can seriously consider would be good news.

And if Groenewegen has his career ruined by this (or faces financial ruin himself as a result), then yeah, he's also a victim. Because he never set out to murder someone with premeditation or destroy Jakobsen's career that morning before the sprint in Poland.



Groenewegen was suspended. This is also sport we're talking about (a very dangerous one under normal circumstances), i.e. comparable to when an F1 driver causes an accident, or when a footballer goes in for a tackle which cripples his opponent.

Comparing that to civilian road accidents involving real felonies (for example) is not exactly accurate. And the punishment should obviously have zero relation to the example you posted.
But DG is the one who brought it back into the public eye.
 
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Everyone can see you're trying hard to push a narrative by taking the accident out of its context and compare with real life situations. Making it way worse and making Groenewegen look a like a murderer. We got it already from your previous posts, you hate Jumbo but your hatred in this serious situation is getting out of hand. You're comparing the accident to a murder and you call it 1:1, how terrible can you be? This is a competition, not something out free on the street.

I'm not a fan of either rider and Groenewegen going out and trying to put himself in a positive note was terrible but Jakobsen fans using comparisons out of context to make the guy a murderer is just as stupid.
All i can say to this is: lol

The fact that it happened during a competition doesn't matter AT ALL when it comes to endangering other people's lives, when you knowingly cross the line and knowingly put someone in danger. Everybody has their reasons, there's always an excuse. When a businessman checks his phone while driving, because he's expecting a big deal to come through, where they might outgun a rival company, he will have the same sense of competition as Groenewegen had. It doesn't matter, it's a weak excuse. The important factors are quite the same.

It's also nice of you to tell me what i like and hate. I think i'll be a bit better placed than you as to what i hate or not. I don't hate any team. If you think i can't form an opinion in this case because i think they didn't support van Aert enough in the classics, or because i think they screwed up tactically in the TDF, then i think it speaks volumes about your actual arguments. Rather than bringing something substantial to the table, you resort to "you just hate TJV". Done talking to you.
 
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But DG is the one who brought it back into the public eye.
I definitely think Groenewegen should stfu about this, especially to the media. He said his piece, whether he did it well or not, but it is what it is. He served his punishment, best he could do now imo is to get back to racing, be respectful, learn from his mistake and leave Jakobsen alone. He doesn't have to grovel before Jakobsen, but he also has no right no demand forgiveness.

Jakobsen is not obligated to accept any apology (if it was even said).
It's questionable if continuing the feud is helpful for anything, but that's up to him too.
 
And by perpetuating the "Groenewegen is a villain" narrative (which is what his Tweets are all about), it does nothing to ever solve the core problem, i.e. which let's face facts here is the barrier & sprint safety situation, because that's what will save future riders, i.e. not punishing & roasting Groenewegen in the public sphere again, again & again which is just ammunition for online warriors of all stripes.
I am probably misunderstanding you, but the way I am reading this and the subsequent post is that crashes happen and the issue is to minimize the consequences of the crashes as much as possible.

If that is the case, I do not fully agree. I think the ban handed out is a good deterrent against obviously dangerous riding which is the core problem for me as cycling has a lot of potential for injury as it is.

And of course Groenewegen trying to score cheap popularity points is a whole different issue alltogether,
 
I don't really understand the people who argue that the incident happened in a sports competition and thus legal proceedings should not and can not happen. Sports isn't some sort of separate world where criminal law and civil law doesn't apply. It is not because a disciplinary sports body has issued a disciplinary sanction such as a suspension that victims can't try to pursue both criminal and civil liability from the culprit to get compensation for their damages.

We also don't know (at least as far as I know) the exact contents of the legal proceedings. There are plenty of people now apparently outraged by the fact that the very bad DQS team and the very bad Lefevere have convinced Jakobsen to legally act against Groenewegen while the UCI and the Polish organisers are the real culprits. Isn't it possible that legal action is being taken against all of them? At least that's what I would do. It is then up to the courts to decide which parties made which offense and who should be liable for which damages.
 
The important factors, including the organisers' responsibility?
It is possible for more than one party to be at fault. Either party's fault doesn't absolve the other party. You could easily introduce similar factors into the aforementioned comparison. For instance, dangerous road furniture. But the organizer didn't force Groenewegen to run Jakobsen into the barriers just as a dangerous road, badly lit streets or road furniture, don't force someone to start looking at his cellphone.
 
All i can say to this is: lol

The fact that it happened during a competition doesn't matter AT ALL when it comes to endangering other people's lives, when you knowingly cross the line and knowingly put someone in danger. Everybody has their reasons, there's always an excuse. When a businessman checks his phone while driving, because he's expecting a big deal to come through, where they might outgun a rival company, he will have the same sense of competition as Groenewegen had. It doesn't matter, it's a weak excuse. The important factors are quite the same.

It's also nice of you to tell me what i like and hate. I think i'll be a bit better placed than you as to what i hate or not. I don't hate any team. If you think i can't form an opinion in this case because i think they didn't support van Aert enough in the classics, or because i think they screwed up tactically in the TDF, then i think it speaks volumes about your actual arguments. Rather than bringing something substantial to the table, you resort to "you just hate TJV". Done talking to you.
I hope you judge the same for every situation in any sport you watch. If that would actually happen, then we will have hundreds of court cases for footballers who endangered other's people lives. Not to mention motorsports or other even more dangerous sports where people actually got killed. Nobody would actually watch any of those sports because nobody will push things to the limit.

That's a very weak comparison. The businessman endanger people's lives which are not in a competition with him. Both actors have to be in the same competition. By being in a competition there are risks involved. If I go on a shortcut in a moto race and I injury someone who is not in the competition then that's totally my fault. And I should be prosecuted by a legal court.

Competitions are regulated by entities which should make sure that the risks involved are minimal. The entity should also be prosecuted if the risk involved was not appropriate. Where is Jakobsen's case against UCI and Tour of Poland? Nowhere to be found.
That's why illegal races are not allowed, because there is no entity which actually makes sure the safety rules to be applied. Illegal races are the case where there is competition but legal proceedings should happen.

All your opinions are already formed in terms of TJV no matter the situation. if it's WvA or Dumo then it's good, otherwise bad. If this whole issue wouldn't actually be against a TJV rider then I wouldn't have said anything, But not matter what this team does, your bias is there and clearly showing.
 
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Nov 24, 2020
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Well... The "Groenewegen trying to score cheap popularity points" can also be viewed as him venting his feelings after almost a year of scrutiny and threats.
Some months ago i already felt like it's kinda inhumane from Fabio to not engage in a meeting or respond to him looking for contact but the whole Groenewegen PR thing is just a whole new spin to this already weird story.
 
I hope you judge the same for every situation in any sport you watch. If that would actually happen, then we will have hundreds of court cases for footballers who endangered other's people lives. Not to mention motorsports or other even more dangerous sports where people actually got killed. Nobody would actually watch any of those sports because nobody will push things to the limit.
It has happened. In football for example there's a difference between a "normal" foul with unfortunate consequences or an unprovoked attack that can only be viewed as an assault, especially when it results in an injury. Just because it happens on the pitch doesn't mean it's immune to legal action.

To use a really extreme example, an American Football player knowingly accepts risks on the field, even severe risks, but not another player pulling out a gun Last Boy Scout style and shooting his way free to the end zone (or possibly even just a lack of regulations regarding concussions, to make the example more realistic).

If an injury is caused by an action that's either totally unrelated to the accepted way the sport is run or the sports authority is knowingly overlooking critical safety measures, it could well be a question for the courts to handle.

(imo the Groenewegen-Jakobsen incident is not over the line, but if Jakobsen wants to push it in court, that's his right)
 

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