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Favourite "Dirty" Performance

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Anonymous

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i think for sheer embarassment Museeuw in 1996 robaix is the top... nothing can beat that for sheer cheek, what a way for the 100th to end.. :/

And of course the gewiss flecha wallone..

as for favourite dirty performances.. in recent years i dont have any, and refuse to.. from history, i guess would still be roche on la plagne..
 
Yes, I'm a little surprised no big name has attempted the hour record (track bike), especially as it hasn't moved much still, and Ondřej Sosenk broke it, and several months later popped positive. You'd think just about any big name pro TT rider could probably break 50km if they trained for it, and would like to be the first to do ever so. Still think if Chris Bordman would have tried it in his prime he could have gotten over 50km.

As to the hour performance (aero bike) Chris's distance of nearly 57km is still an incredible achievement, and I'd have to think it would take something like a doped up performance by Spartacus to topple it. Chris was completely knackered when that effort was over, and it was the pinnacle of his entire life.

Maybe a lot of these top names figure that it isn't worth the risk? To have to pass a slew of controls, knowing it's 99% likely you have to dope to ride that fast. And if you get caught, it's over - for a ride you didn't need to ride.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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dimspace said:
from history, i guess would still be roche on la plagne..
Am interested to know why you'd include this one? My understanding of the situation is that he only really cranked it for the last couple of km of the stage - and the video I've seen shows him labouring the gear rather than the ridiculous big gear spinning we see in the EPO/blood bag era. And of course there's the collapse and night in hospital which to me points more to last desparate effort and determination/adrenaline than PEDs ...

Am open to changing my mind though - although I will confess it would really sadden me to do so as Roche always seemed like one of the last of the set who rode the bike for mostly the love of it ...:)
 
Aug 17, 2009
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hour records

Alpe d'Huez said:
Yes, I'm a little surprised no big name has attempted the hour record (track bike), especially as it hasn't moved much still, and Ondřej Sosenk broke it, and several months later popped positive. You'd think just about any big name pro TT rider could probably break 50km if they trained for it, and would like to be the first to do ever so. Still think if Chris Bordman would have tried it in his prime he could have gotten over 50km.

As to the hour performance (aero bike) Chris's distance of nearly 57km is still an incredible achievement, and I'd have to think it would take something like a doped up performance by Spartacus to topple it. Chris was completely knackered when that effort was over, and it was the pinnacle of his entire life.

Maybe a lot of these top names figure that it isn't worth the risk? To have to pass a slew of controls, knowing it's 99% likely you have to dope to ride that fast. And if you get caught, it's over - for a ride you didn't need to ride.

Interesting to note from ACoogans post on the critics have their power numbers wrong Chris Boardmans crank power was estimated at 442 Watts by his coach Peter Keen

According to Peter Keen, at the time of his hour record Boardman had a VO2max of 90 mL/min/kg, of which he maintained 90% for the 60 min. I don't recall the exact figure given for his efficiency, but it was neither low nor exceptional...his estimated power output was therefore 442 W, or 6.4 W/kg. Assuming that he did not use drugs, the question then becomes "what sort of performance is possible naturally when someone comes along who has an equally high VO2max and LT, but also has exceptional efficiency*?"

Eddy Mercx was measured at 455 Watts for an hour on a stationary ergometer. While we cannot know whether Eddy Mercx used performance enhancing drugs to do this or not we do know for certain he didn't use EPO because it was unknown in 1975. Mercx was 72Kg and 184cm. So 6.3 watts per Kg is achieved for an hour in this controlled test.

When Mercx set his hour record in 1972 in Mexico city his power output was estimated at 366 Watts. Using a model equating the effect of aerodynamic effects and reduced aerobic capacity at altitude this performance equates to an approximate 430 Watt performance at sea level.

Boardmans attempt at Mercx record on 1972 style bike was estimated at 414 Watts quite a difference in performance from his 442 achieved in superman position on the 57km/hr record

Miguel Indurain was estimated at close to 500 Watts in periods during his hour record of 53 km. Indurains performances are questionable because of his working with Conconi.

So without EPO it is possible to achieve 6.3 Watts per Kg for an hour.
There is substantial variance in output performed between a controlled lab measurement on stationary bike and comparing this to outside performance. Aerodynamics effect is difficult to estimate with body size and position etc variance of pace. Other factors with less impact affecting variance include equipment weight, rolling resistance, temparature, stiffness in equipment etc.

Given Mercx performance is over 30 years old and natural advancement along with nutrition training technique etc would mean a significant improvement on this is possible. Unfortunately because of EPO every performance in cycling seems to raise questions now.
 
kiwirider said:
Am interested to know why you'd include this one? My understanding of the situation is that he only really cranked it for the last couple of km of the stage - and the video I've seen shows him labouring the gear rather than the ridiculous big gear spinning we see in the EPO/blood bag era. And of course there's the collapse and night in hospital which to me points more to last desparate effort and determination/adrenaline than PEDs ...

Am open to changing my mind though - although I will confess it would really sadden me to do so as Roche always seemed like one of the last of the set who rode the bike for mostly the love of it ...:)

Roche took an illegal feed on that stage - and was subsequently given a time penalty. Some say it was illegal in more ways than one.

One thing for sure though is that his name is on files for having being administered EPO in the early 90s whilst with Cerrera. Himself and Chiapucci to name but two. Conconi was the doctor.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Digger said:
Roche took an illegal feed on that stage - and was subsequently given a time penalty. Some say it was illegal in more ways than one.

One thing for sure though is that his name is on files for having being administered EPO in the early 90s whilst with Cerrera. Himself and Chiapucci to name but two. Conconi was the doctor.
OK ... had forgotten about the illegal feed - and hadn't heard the story that people suspected he'd been dosed in the process ... and had heard about the subsequent involvement with Conconi - I mean, he was racing for Carrera after all ...

Thanks for the info :)
 
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kiwirider said:
Am interested to know why you'd include this one? My understanding of the situation is that he only really cranked it for the last couple of km of the stage - and the video I've seen shows him labouring the gear rather than the ridiculous big gear spinning we see in the EPO/blood bag era. And of course there's the collapse and night in hospital which to me points more to last desparate effort and determination/adrenaline than PEDs ...

Am open to changing my mind though - although I will confess it would really sadden me to do so as Roche always seemed like one of the last of the set who rode the bike for mostly the love of it ...:)

my point kinda was, that if you work on the assumption that every rider over that period of time was in some way doped, then basically "best doped performance" could just be titled "favourite cycling performance" on the basis that every single ride up to about 2007 was in some way enhanced.. ;)
 
dimspace said:
my point kinda was, that if you work on the assumption that every rider over that period of time was in some way doped, then basically "best doped performance" could just be titled "favourite cycling performance" on the basis that every single ride up to about 2007 was in some way enhanced.. ;)

It wasn't. Nor is it right to assume that the majority of rides since 07 are now clean.
 
cyclingmad said:
Interesting to note from ACoogans post on the critics have their power numbers wrong Chris Boardmans crank power was estimated at 442 Watts by his coach Peter Keen

According to Peter Keen, at the time of his hour record Boardman had a VO2max of 90 mL/min/kg, of which he maintained 90% for the 60 min. I don't recall the exact figure given for his efficiency, but it was neither low nor exceptional...his estimated power output was therefore 442 W, or 6.4 W/kg. ...
Interesting notes. I'll use this information for the other thread. I am gathering some information to answer some posts.
Thanks.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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bit late in this thread, there are so many.

the first ones that came to mind (apart from the ones named):

older ones: moser's world hour record, bobrik's lombardia win, jaskula's 3rd place in the 1993 tour.

more recently: the 2006 vuelta podium (i think it was in jef d'hondt's book where he quoted kashechkin "us kazakhs don't care about you europeans with your ethics and health regulations. we're here to make as much money as possible").
up for debate:
pellizotti on krohnplatz.
stijn devolder's wins in de ronde van vlaanderen.
team columbia in 2009. ;p
 
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blackcat said:
Cavendish San Remo 2009.

Never seen a sprinter chase down another sprinter, and put ten lengths into the bunch, in the last 250 metres.

Cav riding 260 kms, is not credible, even accounting for the first 100km piano tranquillo, but that sprint was something else.

so what are you suggesting he is taking that gives him the ability to sprint that well over 250 metres???
 
Aug 31, 2009
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besides the "usual suspects" and some performances already mentioned:

-rasmussen at tdf 2005 st. 9 defending a 3 min. gap against voigt and moreau over the final flat 30 km
-dekker's 3 tdf solo wins in 2000 + paris-tour 2004
-bettini the 2006 worlds beating zabel in the sprint after several attacks during the last 2 rounds
-olympics 2000

nice thread btw. :)
 
Jun 2, 2009
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Tour de France 2005, Stage 21, Corbeil Essonnes-Paris Champs Elysees, Alexandre Vinokourov attacks the time bonus sprint from a long, long way out with three Gerolsteiner riders on his wheel. The Gerolsteiners were supposed to keep Vino from getting time on Leipheimer. The drag race went on forever and no one could come around him nor hold his wheel. Vino gets the time bonus and is tied for 5th on GC with Levi who is fractions of a second ahead. Then, Vino holds off the sprinters on a final 1500-meter attack and wins the last stage. Victory secures another twenty seconds bonus. It was a truly unbelievable performance that day.
 
Max Cadence said:
Tour de France 2005, Stage 21, Corbeil Essonnes-Paris Champs Elysees, Alexandre Vinokourov attacks the time bonus sprint from a long, long way out with three Gerolsteiner riders on his wheel. The Gerolsteiners were supposed to keep Vino from getting time on Leipheimer. The drag race went on forever and no one could come around him nor hold his wheel. Vino gets the time bonus and is tied for 5th on GC with Levi who is fractions of a second ahead. Then, Vino holds off the sprinters on a final 1500-meter attack and wins the last stage. Victory secures another twenty seconds bonus. It was a truly unbelievable performance that day.

Hey, you don't happen to have a link to a video of this stage appearing online somewhere? Or a torrent? Would love to watch it.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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dimspace said:
so what are you suggesting he is taking that gives him the ability to sprint that well over 250 metres???
nothing. Just like Sella could climb and win stages in the last Giro. Cav has a natural ability to sprint, like Sella and Ricco have a natural affinity for the high mountains. It is how they are allowed to showcase that skill. The dope gives them the ability to showcase it, ofcourse, they may be talented responders. The may have great androgens that helps their explosivity. But, it is a fallacy, about sprinters not needing dope. Over 250km classics, everyone needs it.
 
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RhodriM said:
Well, nobody 'needs' it...
It is possible riders need it to keep their job; a former professional has implied that on this board.

The word 'need' only becomes meaningful if it comes with a 'for'.