Federal Prosecutor Doug Miller Assigned to Landis case

[slcbiker]

I don't know. While there's certainly alot of potential here... I wouldn't expect anything to happen any time soon.

Years later, these guys still haven't imposed any significant penalty on Barry Bonds. Nor has anything happened to Roger Clemens, despite there apparently being actual physical evidence in that case (syringes with Clemens DNA).

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[MacRoadie]

I don't know. While there's certainly alot of potential here... I wouldn't expect anything to happen any time soon.

Years later, these guys still haven't imposed any significant penalty on Barry Bonds. Nor has anything happened to Roger Clemens, despite there apparently being actual physical evidence in that case (syringes with Clemens DNA).

I'm not holding my breath.

I think there again is a significant difference. Barry Bonds was never the center of the BALCO investigation, although he was certainly used to give the investigation more notoriety/publicity.

Before Bonds decided to perjure himself (more to protect his own legacy than to protect anyone at BALCO), the feds really didn't have anything on him beyond using some illegal drugs...ho hum. Catching drug users isn't real high on the IRS/FDA to-do list. Setting inflated homerun records isn't up there either.

Their goal in BALCO was to go after Victor Conte and the sale and distribution of the drugs.

The same goes for Clemens. The feds weren't looking to get Clemens per se, they again were after the distribution system alluded to by Jason Grimsley and traced back through Clemens to Brian McNamee. Clemens is also the subject of a federal grand jury investigation on alleged perjury before congress.

It has been suggested, however, that as a co-owner of Tailwind Sports Armstrong may have been complicit in the purchase, distribution, and use of certain controlled substances, in addition to whatever fraud charges nay arise from the relationship between Tailwind and the USPS or other sponsors.

 

[Tubeless]

I don't know. While there's certainly alot of potential here... I wouldn't expect anything to happen any time soon.

Years later, these guys still haven't imposed any significant penalty on Barry Bonds. Nor has anything happened to Roger Clemens, despite there apparently being actual physical evidence in that case (syringes with Clemens DNA).

I'm not holding my breath.

The Armstrong case has always been there, the only thing missing was someone authorized to investigate. This is much broader that any of the baseball cases, involving business fraud, organized team doping, witness intimidation and corruption.

LA was operating under the impression that breaking a sporting regulation (about doping) has nothing to do with breaking any laws. He was further emboldened by winning the civil case against SCA - which confirmed that as long as his sporting authority (UCI) was considering him clean, he would in fact be clean. Most tested athlete = clean athlete.

Armstrong's own arrogance was his undoing. He would have been smart to keep his friends close and enemies even closer. But he felt he had immunity to operate with a wink and a nod - and ended up getting turning enough folks against him that, eventually, added the last straw. Landis' allegations alone would not have been sufficient, it was the accumulation of everything along the way.

It sure seems the feds are proceeding and would likely lose face themselves now if they did not at least obtain an indictment. That alone is enough to put an end to the Armstrong saga, as we know it.

 

[slcbiker]

I think there again is a significant difference. Barry Bonds was never the center of the BALCO investigation, although he was certainly used to give the investigation more notoriety/publicity.

Before Bonds decided to perjure himself (more to protect his own legacy than to protect anyone at BALCO), the feds really didn't have anything on him beyond using some illegal drugs...ho hum. Catching drug users isn't real high on the IRS/FDA to-do list.

Their goal in BALCO was to go after Victor Conte and the sale and distribution of the drugs.

The same goes for Clemens. The feds weren't looking to get Clemens per se, they again were after the distribution system alluded to by Jason Grimsley and traced back through Clemens to Brian McNamee. Clemens is also the subject of a federal grand jury investigation on alleged perjury before congress.

It has been suggested, however, that as a co-owner of Tailwind Sports Armstrong may have been complicit in the purchase, distribution, and use of certain controlled substances, in addition to whatever fraud charges nay arise from the relationship between Tailwind and the USPS or other sponsors.

If you ask most people about BALCO, however, what comes up is not Conte, but Bonds. And yes Clemens is under investigation, but that's been the case for a couple of years now.
Point I was trying to make was not to expect anything soon, and unless they have very good, very direct evidence that Lance was behind it all, he may end up walking away.
A lot of folks on this board seem to be expecting Lance to get hauled away in cuffs any day now, simply because a couple of BALCO feds are working on this. While that may happen, I'm still thinking it's not going to be any time soon.

 

[Mr.DNA]

And yes Clemens is under investigation, but that's been the case for a couple of years now.

Looks like it is moving forward:
http://tinyurl.com/27s3dkr

 

[Tubeless]

If you ask most people about BALCO, however, what comes up is not Conte, but Bonds. And yes Clemens is under investigation, but that's been the case for a couple of years now.
Point I was trying to make was not to expect anything soon, and unless they have very good, very direct evidence that Lance was behind it all, he may end up walking away.
A lot of folks on this board seem to be expecting Lance to get hauled away in cuffs any day now, simply because a couple of BALCO feds are working on this. While that may happen, I'm still thinking it's not going to be any time soon.

We all know Lance was behind the whole scheme. He's been the boss, the ringleader, the order-giver, the undisputed king. He's the one with the most money. Ever heard of another rider being part-owner of the team? He talks and acts like the guy in charge. It won't be hard to find people to corraborate this much.

Lance's main problem now is that because of his style / ego / arrogance, he made lots of enemies along the way. Most people don't want a nice guy harmed and would stay quiet. But Lance? And it's the feds asking? It's not surprising to hear that many are talking voluntarily. The fraud happened over so many years with so many teammates and business partners that many folks know many details.

And I don't think Armstrong ever covered his tracks well enough as his narsistic ego certainly did not expect that the feds would be calling one day. He firmly believed he was not doing anything wrong. There could be many juicy details left to uncover as the investigation proceeds.

 

[Oldman]

Show me the loose ends.

Conspiring to defraud the govt into giving them money.

Clear enterprise and structure, with knowledge and participation in the acts

Sufficient longevity.

Organized manner by which the laws were conspired to be broken, (ie not opportunistic).

Mail/Wire fraud, goes without saying.

Issue of consent, meaning the govt. would not have directly or indirectly authorized or consented these rules of law or sport to be broken, no more than they would continue within their contract had they been informed of the scheme.

Bear in mind, generally, only two of all the criteria must be present for a matter to be taken as RICO. This situation has nearly all elements.

Everything you've noted above is a loose end unless LA is the actual mastermind. When I think of LA MASTERMIND is not the word that comes first. He's not that bright. Every charge has to be proven and what you believe doesn't count.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Everything you've noted above is a loose end unless LA is the actual mastermind. When I think of LA MASTERMIND is not the word that comes first. He's not that bright. Every charge has to be proven and what you believe doesn't count.

Your first reply seemed to me to doubt that RICO would be applicable. My point is it is more than applicable, based on the standards that have been set by US DoJ. It appears that procedurally there are a whole host of things that must happen in order for that to happen, and from my research into it, this is no stretch at all to happen.

Yes, obviously, all charges must be proven. Kind of implied, isn't it?

To the extent they are or are not loose ends, sure, as matter of opinion. However, it is not just the Mastermind who is charged. The entire ownership group, as part and parcel in the conspiracy based on their roles, go down.

 

[Oldman]

Your first reply seemed to me to doubt that RICO would be applicable. My point is it is more than applicable, based on the
Yes, obviously, all charges must be proven. Kind of implied, isn't it?

To the extent they are or are not loose ends, sure, as matter of opinion. However, it is not just the Mastermind who is charged. The entire ownership group, as part and parcel in the conspiracy based on their roles, go down.

Sorry for any confusion. RICO would be applicable but I was speaking to probable charges. The degree of involvment is the key and proving it can be difficult. LA saying "I need drugs to go fast" is not the same as arranging, acquiring or distributing to others. As pointed out earlier; drug abusers are not a real priority for a Grand Jury investigation should that be the venue. They'd have to have airtight evidence to convict for a criminal offense and the Special Prosecutor may have it. These type of investigations tend to be more about the institutionalized "cheating" problem if it follows MLB and the NFL stereotype of prosecution. That and the political difficulty of USPS resources being involved-without those Federal funds there would not be a Special Prosecutor assigned to the case. It would be a simple criminal case and they'd leave it to USADA to pursue and they're not going to bust a small drug ring. Congress didn't care about criminal use of steroids in baseball; they had to care about the special Monopoly rights they granted MLB (and partial monopoly the NFL enjoys) as it was a politically sensitive issue. That set the model for this case IMO.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

[/color]

Sorry for any confusion. RICO would be applicable but I was speaking to probable charges. The degree of involvment is the key and proving it can be difficult. LA saying "I need drugs to go fast" is not the same as arranging, acquiring or distributing to others. As pointed out earlier; drug abusers are not a real priority for a Grand Jury investigation should that be the venue. They'd have to have airtight evidence to convict for a criminal offense and the Special Prosecutor may have it. These type of investigations tend to be more about the institutionalized "cheating" problem if it follows MLB and the NFL stereotype of prosecution. That and the political difficulty of USPS resources being involved-without those Federal funds there would not be a Special Prosecutor assigned to the case. It would be a simple criminal case and they'd leave it to USADA to pursue and they're not going to bust a small drug ring. Congress didn't care about criminal use of steroids in baseball; they had to care about the special Monopoly rights they granted MLB (and partial monopoly the NFL enjoys) as it was a politically sensitive issue. That set the model for this case IMO.

I agree that this is a very unique situation.

The USPS as "sponsor" is what makes it really problematic for Tailwind/LA. I agree that absent that, it would be far less likely to gain traction, and might even fail.

Since it does feature, the seriousness of this, which is downplayed by the loyalists, ratchets up day after day. It is this seriousness that is "scaring straight" (as I hear it) so many of the accused riders. I don't believe cooperation or corroboration will be an issue. Where this will stall is post-indictment.

To me, LA retires and their whole crew digs in for a legal battle that lasts 2-4 years. The sudden and shocking impact of LA being indicted, along with the others, will be so shocking and so contrary to the general public conception of LA it will be irreparable.

Post-indictment, I think the lawyers for the defense will make crazy fees wrangling on every point, delaying every hearing and contesting every motion. Should it ever get to trial, it will be quick and bloody, as the facts are not on his side and the evidence will be overwhelming.

You mention the other sports leagues as the model for this case and as compared to the interest in doping in the big league sports, this is quite a departure, first on the USPS point but also on the narrowness of the focus. This is not about 100 ballplayers, it is about 1 massive sports entity. For that reason the baseball issue was like grasping water or sand, whereas this can be taken by one skinny neck and twisted.

 

[Jimmy Riddle]

I agree that this is a very unique situation.

The USPS as "sponsor" is what makes it really problematic for Tailwind/LA. I agree that absent that, it would be far less likely to gain traction, and might even fail.

Yes I've noticed you banging the drum over this technicality of having federal funds as sponsor money.

I wonder how many people were highlighting this before the case was announced. I've done a search and can't find anything in the clinic on this. Interesting.

 

[blackcat]

what is the threshold for Landis being eligible for the whistleblower reward on the fraud, and does any criminal charge he pleas down to or gets immunity, will this disqualify him.

If he is eligible, with the enemies StrongArm made, it is astounding none like Hamilton and Landis came forward with this strategy orchestrated, when both are in need of a buck.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Yes I've noticed you banging the drum over this technicality of having federal funds as a sponser money.

I wonder how many people were highlighting this before the case was announced. I've done a search and can't find anything in the clinic on this. Interesting.

Well, it is the key to prosecuting this case. I "bang the drum" because it is constantly overlooked by the fanboys who say, "this will blow over in two weeks". No, it will not.

I find it convenient that they overlook it and I highlight it in the interest of general forum intelligence, to which I enjoy contributing. You know, sharing ideas and thoughts on common interests topics, arguing over petty issues, etc.

Before the case was announced, none of this was relevant, and I had not a care about it. The accusations Landis made have triggered all of this. Without Landis, none of this really makes a difference, ie someone had to come forward for such a scenario to come about.

I find it humorous you call it a technicality, as if this could be some mistake or trip up based on an arbitrary rule or policy. Do you find defrauding the US govt a technicality? Are you a US citizen (I am not) who pays taxes?

If so, can you tell me how you feel about LA defrauding, essentially, you?

 

[lean mean &green]

Congress didn't care about criminal use of steroids in baseball; they had to care about the special Monopoly rights they granted MLB (and partial monopoly the NFL enjoys) as it was a politically sensitive issue. That set the model for this case IMO.

the USPS is not a govt agency, it is more accurately described as a heavily regulated monopoly. they have a monopoply on 1st class mail. competition exists with parcels but the USPS is the only game in town when you want to drop a stamped letter in the mail and that's why they need govt approval to raise the price of postage. the fact that they can't set their own prices and powerful stubborn unions is why they're in such financial difficulty. there are some interesting parallels to other monopolies you mentioned.

USPS is absolutely massive tho. post offices/employees in every god-for-saken town in the country no matter how remote. sponsoring a bike team was a drop in the bucket with a budget the size of theirs.

alot of possible angles in this, it will be interesting to see what charges, if any, will stick.

-i had a summer job with USPS back in college and had to sit thru an orientation explaining all this crap, might have been the worst job of my life. i did get paid to sit thru the orientation at least.

 

[Jimmy Riddle]

Well, it is the key to prosecuting this case. I "bang the drum" because it is constantly overlooked by the fanboys who say, "this will blow over in two weeks". No, it will not.

I find it convenient that they overlook it and I highlight it in the interest of general forum intelligence, to which I enjoy contributing. You know, sharing ideas and thoughts on common interests topics, arguing over petty issues, etc.

Before the case was announced, none of this was relevant, and I had not a care about it. The accusations Landis made have triggered all of this. Without Landis, none of this really makes a difference, ie someone had to come forward for such a scenario to come about.

I find it humorous you call it a technicality, as if this could be some mistake or trip up based on an arbitrary rule or policy. Do you find defrauding the US govt a technicality? Are you a US citizen (I am not) who pays taxes?

If so, can you tell me how you feel about LA defrauding, essentially, you?

I think you contradict yourself. You admit that nobody had thought of this area before the Landis thing blew up. It is a technicality that allows the sport to be criminalised.

Strangely though, no one seems to admit to wanting the sport to be criminalised. Whilst enjoying the spectacle of it, I think many of you deep down recognise this is not morally right or a good thing for the sport.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I think you contradict yourself. You admit that nobody had thought of this area before the Landis thing blew up. It is a technicality that allows the sport to be criminalised.

Strangely though, no one seems to admit to wanting the sport to be criminalised. Whilst enjoying the spectacle of it, I think many of you deep down recognise this is not morally right or a good thing for the sport.

I did not contradict myself.

That folks on a message forum are void of particular information or details, it is not a contradiction.

That as facts emerged, speculation done by moderately smart people took place, it is simply another function of a message board focusing on a central focus.

Contradiction? Not.

Try again. Twist it how you like. Won't change what is afoot.

 

[rata de sentina]

A lot of folks on this board seem to be expecting Lance to get hauled away in cuffs any day now, simply because a couple of BALCO feds are working on this. While that may happen, I'm still thinking it's not going to be any time soon.

A lot of what you read here is wishful mischief. It's fun but perhaps not very well grounded as yet. It may not come to pass but the mud is flying, the pressure is on and the wind has changed and LAs flagship is "in irons" to use a nautical term.

 

[auscyclefan94]

And what of Bradley, one of the most opinionated, out-spoken riders, always ready to verbally attack a doper? He's not said a word in public since the Landis email was leaked. He's probably just been told by Sky's PR machine to keep quiet but to some I'm sure his silence speaks volumes.

If he did, Lord Dopestrong or Pharmstrong would send out his soldiers to spread hate for bradley, spike all his tests and split up his relationship with Cath!

 

[Jimmy Riddle]

I did not contradict myself.

That folks on a message forum are void of particular information or details, it is not a contradiction.

That as facts emerged, speculation done by moderately smart people took place, it is simply another function of a message board focusing on a central focus.

Contradiction? Not.

Try again. Twist it how you like. Won't change what is afoot.

I still don't think you get it. I'm saying nobody was outraged about this particular issue of federal funds being used to fund Armstrong's team before this investigation happened. Even now most people who are rooting against Armstrong hardly mention it - it's a technicality they can get him on, but nothing more.

In the many years of criticism against Armstrong I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about federal funds being used to fund his team. It's the old getting Al Capone on tax evasion thing.

It's opportunism you would agree?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I still don't think you get it. I'm saying nobody was outraged about this particular issue of federal funds being used to fund Armstrong's team before this investigation happened. Even now most people who are rooting against Armstrong hardly mention it - it's a technicality they can get him on, but nothing more.

In the many years of criticism against Armstrong I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about federal funds being used to fund his team. It's the old getting Al Capone on tax evasion thing.

It's opportunism you would agree?

You can google Prentice Steffan and see that this issue existed before. Difference seems to be the cooperation of the riders.

 

[lean mean &green]

1 more time...

federal funds WERE NOT used to fund USPS bike team.

your tax dollars DID NOT fund USPS bike team.

USPS needs budget and pricing approval from govt, that's it.

do they charge you for stamps? do they charge you to send a package?

they are a business, albeit a heavily regulated one. as such govt would still be concerned with they're advertising/marketing expenditures.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

1 more time...

federal funds WERE NOT used to fund USPS bike team.

your tax dollars DID NOT fund USPS bike team.

USPS needs budget and pricing approval from govt, that's it.

do they charge you for stamps? do they charge you to send a package?

they are a business, albeit a heavily regulated one. as such govt would still be concerned with they're advertising/marketing expenditures.

From a contracting (and legal recourse) standpoint, the USPS is a US Federal entity. Subject to all the provisions and requirements. The info is out there.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I still don't think you get it. I'm saying nobody was outraged about this particular issue of federal funds being used to fund Armstrong's team before this investigation happened. Even now most people who are rooting against Armstrong hardly mention it - it's a technicality they can get him on, but nothing more.

In the many years of criticism against Armstrong I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about federal funds being used to fund his team. It's the old getting Al Capone on tax evasion thing.

It's opportunism you would agree?

No. I would not agree.

It is nothing more than organized crime. Using illegal means to enrich themselves. They frauded their sponsors and did not act in good faith in business dealings. Had sponsors known (or were forced to publicly acknowledge) what really went into "winning" they would have ended the contracts. Nike, USPS, Trek, etc.

Do you think those companies will go back after LA civilly to obatin a judgement for fraud? I do, especially if they are publicly traded companies (Nike).

Do you think SCA will re-litigate their claim should LA be shown to have doped?

I guess the bottom line is would you rather ignore all of this and let it slide or do you believe the public (for whom the PA, FDA, etc are tasked with protecting) has a right to justice?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I still don't think you get it. I'm saying nobody was outraged about this particular issue of federal funds being used to fund Armstrong's team before this investigation happened. Even now most people who are rooting against Armstrong hardly mention it - it's a technicality they can get him on, but nothing more.

In the many years of criticism against Armstrong I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about federal funds being used to fund his team. It's the old getting Al Capone on tax evasion thing.

It's opportunism you would agree?

My general impression is that these investigations start at point A but the people managing the investigation don't expect to STAY at point A. Point A gives them the leverage to obtain evidence and then the evidence leads them to something bigger.

If I was Lance I'd be worried about a RICO case. Just my .02.

 

[lean mean &green]

From a contracting (and legal recourse) standpoint, the USPS is a US Federal entity. Subject to all the provisions and requirements. The info is out there.

Major change occurred in early 70's and USPS broke away from fed govt. it is a very unique circumstance i dont care to debate or explain right now. the sponsorship of a "fraudulent" bike team would draw the ire of fed govt more so than it would another business but it is inaccurate to say federal funds or tax dollars were misused. that info IS OUT THERE.