Federal Prosecutor Doug Miller Assigned to Landis case

[lean mean &green]

What you seem to be missing is that the USPS purchases and contracts through the US Federal GSA (General Services Administration). As such, even an "independent" organization like the USPS, from a purely contracting standpoint, is a Fed govt agency, and as such, enjoys the protections of engaging with vendors under the policies and protections of the US Fed GSA.

I am not sure how else to convince you this applies but from a contracting standpoint, and that is one of the clear issues seems to be going forward (and the defrauding of the USPS under their contract) for the Tailwind/Lance crew, the USPS is a Federal agency. The USPS is independent in management and budget but still subordinate and part of the Executive branch of the US Federal Govt, subject to very clear contracting rules, which are applicable here.

Here is a link with more than plentiful information as to how all of that world works. Go bananas! All the details to bore you to tears.

i don't need to be "convinced" and i don't disagree with any of the above. (glad to see you've finally done your homework). the point is that tax dollars weren't used to fund the US postal team as some stated earlier in the thread. that was my only point. USPS generates they're own income and haven't recieved US tax payer money since the early 80's. the fed govt is still plenty upset because of this unique relatioship however.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

At 'Colm', 'Oldman' & 'Lean Mean Green', thank you all for your informative posts.

I think 'LMG' is correct that USPS is not a Federal entity per se, but as was noted by 'Oldman'...

Interesting distinction. Unlike others who believe some fraud charge for using Federal funds (which you corrected-thanks) I think the Prosecutor would use the same method of discovery and prosecution. That the USPS was a sponsor makes it politically compelling. That USADA would want to discuss the method PEDs are distributed is legally compelling. That a Celebrity level athelete would profit from a charity to the degree LA allegedly has would be compelling to the media. In the end, no one may do time but how much baseball are Clemens/Bonds playing and what's happened to their endorsement income?
Reducing the ill gotten gains and the cynical misuse of a charity have emerged as an acceptable end IMO. Scaring cycling into a cleaner sport is probably happening to some degree, now. We'll have to see what happens to the UCI if they are enough of an embarrassment to the IOC (an organization that is really tough to embarrass).

I believe the above is the way this will go.
As more and more detail emerges from this investigation it will become a 'political issue' not just a sporting or even judicial issue.

Like Colm I am not too familiar with the Balco case or the Bonds/Clemens saga - except that they didn't appear to be too convincing in front of Congress.

 

[Race Radio]

The key was that Greg Anderson wouldn't testify and verify the source of the samples. The custody of the evidence would be questioned (tainted samples?).
In LA/USPS case there appears to be no shortage of witnesses and participants.

This is key.

While some groupies may try to pretend that the lack of indictment of Bonds shows some kind of incompetence of Novitzky the reality is there are far more potential witnesses in the Armstrong case. For Bonds there is basically one, Anderson, and he is not talking.

 

[Benotti69]

Scaring cycling into a cleaner sport is probably happening to some degree, now. We'll have to see what happens to the UCI if they are enough of an embarrassment to the IOC (an organization that is really tough to embarrass).

scaring cycling is gonna be really really difficult. If LA goes down i would imagine the 95% of the peleton would heave a collective big sigh and yet inside themselves leap for joy. but this sport has been doping since its inception...all the DS, doctor's, mechanics, soigneurs etc..see it as a completely acceptable and to some important part of the sport...Merckx/Hinault seem to be some of LA's biggest fans, how can you convince others to think differently....it is gonna take a serious death of a competing rider and then his family to start to unravel the dangers of doping to rider's health to make the authorities clean it up, but in italy that could take a lifetime if it even happens...and the italians appear to be leading the charge on doping, it's an insidious part of society, this acceptable cheating to survive life, that's how they see it, i know i live here..

the IOC, what a bunch of lowlifes...they are like a bunch of mafia heads directing the dirty world of sport, all for a cut off the top....and UCI are stooges in this...

 

[SpartacusRox]

You cannot "lawyer up". No chance. You cannot drag out proceedings. You cannot dodge the calls to speak. You have front up and respond. You cannot evade questions. Why? Because if you don’t respond they will bust you for not cooperating with a federal investigation. If you lie they will bust you for that. You cannot avoid them. You only have one choice.

Lol you are such a funny guy. Not only CSI but Boston legal also

 

[Darryl Webster]

Hi folks. First post on this forum.
Some of you may know me from racing in the 80`s for Manchester Wheelers and being a pro rider in the uk for PMS/ Dawes in 88 and Teka in Spain in 89.
Any way hi to everyone.

Argentina V Nigera 1, 0 at mo

First comment on Lance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Hi folks. First post on this forum.
Some of you may know me from racing in the 80`s for Manchester Wheelers and being a pro rider in the uk for PMS/ Dawes in 88 and Teka in Spain in 89.
Any way hi to everyone.

Argentina V Nigera 1, 0 at mo

First comment on Lance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

Welcome. Just saw the Argentina score.

 

[Tubeless]

i don't need to be "convinced" and i don't disagree with any of the above. (glad to see you've finally done your homework). the point is that tax dollars weren't used to fund the US postal team as some stated earlier in the thread. that was my only point. USPS generates they're own income and haven't recieved US tax payer money since the early 80's. the fed govt is still plenty upset because of this unique relatioship however.

For full disclosure, USPS has access to a $15 billion credit line from the US Treasury and presently owes $10 billion to the US taxpayers, a sum it is unlikely to ever pay back in full.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/losing-money-isnt-the-u-s-postal-services-only-problem/19379758/

But for the time frame in question (sponsorship of the USPS cycling team), USPS was running mostly at break-even. Here's an interesting interview of the 2001 US Postal team's GM, Mark Gorski touching on the USPS funding question, as well as why Armstrong is a more "marketable" than LeMond. Reason? It's got to do about cancer.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/interviews/markgorski01.shtml

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Hi folks. First post on this forum.
Some of you may know me from racing in the 80`s for Manchester Wheelers and being a pro rider in the uk for PMS/ Dawes in 88 and Teka in Spain in 89.
Any way hi to everyone.

Argentina V Nigera 1, 0 at mo

First comment on Lance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

Hello Darryl, did you happen to pass much time with Paul Watson? I met him on holiday in France some time ago, quite a funny guy and talented racer.

 

[Oldman]

For full disclosure, USPS has access to a $15 billion credit line from the US Treasury and presently owes $10 billion to the US taxpayers, a sum it is unlikely to ever pay back in full.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/losing-money-isnt-the-u-s-postal-services-only-problem/19379758/

But for the time frame in question (sponsorship of the USPS cycling team), USPS was running mostly at break-even. Here's an interesting interview of the 2001 US Postal team's GM, Mark Gorski touching on the USPS funding question, as well as why Armstrong is a more "marketable" than LeMond. Reason? It's got to do about cancer.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/interviews/markgorski01.shtml

Gorski frames the potential motivations for the current USADA investigation and the USPS team's incentive to win at all costs:

As you would imagine — they are a government agency, the board of governors is appointed by the president, these are very political positions — just the notion of advertising is relatively controversial at the Postal Service, let alone sponsorship. So sponsorship really has to be very well justified with a very strong business case.
Because our first three years with the Postal Service were one year contracts that had to be renewed each year we were really forced to justify that a cycling team could make business sense for the Postal Service and how it could provide a return beyond the feel-good things that a lot of sponsorship has. It had to make business sense.

We began to work very closely with the sales division of the postal service, which Gail Sonnenberg has headed for the last several years, and almost became an extension of the sales team. I have spent a lot of time out on sales calls around the country with cycling companies, other team sponsors and other clients of Tailwind Sports, to facilitate new business relationships for the Postal Service, in terms of new accounts for their expedited mail services and the large package services for catalogue companies and mail order companies.

CN: So it's a much broader relationship than is usual between a sponsor and team?
MG: We have done things over the years that go far beyond a typical sponsorship to give [the postal Service] the justification to continue their sponsorship. They set a benchmark of four times the sponsorship fee that we had to hit every year to continue, in terms of new business and we hit it every year, even before Lance won the Tour in 1999. We were very successful in providing this business-building case and then in 1998 Lance embarked on his comeback and started to do things competitively that surprised everyone.

What solidified our relationship for the long haul was the combination of the business-building program and the competitive success and resulting media exposure that Lance and the team have garnered. The knowledge and awareness of Lance Armstrong to the average American, is extremely high, and the knowledge of the association with US Postal is higher than I ever anticipated.

CN: Does the average American understand that in order for Lance Armstrong to win races he needs a team around him, and that involves spending money at the level that has been claimed [$12 million per year]?

MG: I think the average American probably does not know that professional cyclists based primarily in Europe, including Lance Armstrong, make salaries in the millions of dollars per year. I think that the average American doesn't want to have to pay more taxes in order to subsidise the US Postal service if the US Postal service is incurring large losses. Ultimately the taxpayer would be responsible for that.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Gorski frames the potential motivations for the current USADA investigation and the USPS team's incentive to win at all costs:

Where does he mention current USADA investigation? I did not see where that was.

 

[Oldman]

Where does he mention current USADA investigation? I did not see where that was.

It's an old article. The point being is Gorski and team were playing to the very audience and pressures that will not bear down on the current investigation. Didn't mean to be confusing on context...

 

[Oldman]

It's an old article. The point being is Gorski and team were playing to the very audience and pressures that will not bear down on the current investigation. Didn't mean to be confusing on context...

I meant NOW. Only one cup of coffee and I'm too jittery. Have a new race to ride today.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Hello Darryl, did you happen to pass much time with Paul Watson? I met him on holiday in France some time ago, quite a funny guy and talented racer.

I rode few races with Paul, main one that springs to mind was finishing 4th to his win of the Amauter National RR championship at Harrogate..85 I think.
I recall him often being reffered to as the Space Cadet!.

.....and the pair of us blowing our heads off while away on the last climb of the mountain in a very wet 85 Manx International and both ending up well down..in my case losing 10 min in the final 10 miles!...most of it down hill ..not fun.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I meant NOW. Only one cup of coffee and I'm too jittery. Have a new race to ride today.

Ok, sure, I understand you point now. Have a great ride!

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I rode few races with Paul, main one that springs to mind was finishing 4th to his win of the Amauter National RR championship at Harrogate..85 I think.
I recall him often being reffered to as the Space Cadet!.

.....and the pair of us blowing our heads off while away on the last climb of the mountain in a very wet 85 Manx International and both ending up well down..in my case losing 10 min in the final 10 miles!...most of it down hill ..not fun.

I heard he moved to the US and married an artist sometime in the early 90's. Was a MTB racer for a spell as well.

Great stories. 10 mins in 10 miles...classic.

 

[Polish]

Hi folks. First post on this forum.
Some of you may know me from racing in the 80`s for Manchester Wheelers and being a pro rider in the uk for PMS/ Dawes in 88 and Teka in Spain in 89.
Any way hi to everyone.

Argentina V Nigera 1, 0 at mo

First comment on Lance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

Hello Mr Webster - welcome to THE CLINIC!

So, what kind of Doping did you see while riding for PMS/Dawes (UK) and Teka (Spain) in the late 80's?

Do not expect you to name names, of course
Maybe a seperate thread?

 

[Anonymous]

Hello Mr Webster - welcome to THE CLINIC!

So, what kind of Doping did you see while riding for PMS/Dawes (UK) and Teka (Spain) in the late 80's?

Do not expect you to name names, of course
Maybe a seperate thread?

Mr Webster,

I apologize for the yapping dog. You'd think he would know how to act by now, but sometimes he forgets his training. Just ignore him. He will probably make a mess on the carpet after this, but some dogs are so stupid they cannot be trained.

 

[Barrus]

Mr Webster,

I apologize for the yapping dog. You'd think he would know how to act by now, but sometimes he forgets his training. Just ignore him. He will probably make a mess on the carpet after this, but some dogs are so stupid they cannot be trained.

Although not often do I find myself agreeing with Polish, the subject in itself is something I would be interested in. But the question could be formulated a bit nicer and less direct and more targeted to the whole of the peloton at that point.

Anyway good to have you here Darryl, feel free to provide us with any information and insight you can give and want to give us and even if you don't want that have a nice time around here, but don't come to much in the clinic, it's mostly us cinics and the Armstrong fanboys, not the nicest crowd of people

 

[dbrower]

To your point, invoking the Firth Amendment (cannot incriminate oneself) would only occur if they had been indicted, ie only applicable for those charged, indicted or whose testimony would incriminate themselves, would invoke the "Fifth". Taking the Fifth does not apply for a witness to an act, per se.

As far as you know, is this correct?

One can invoke the fifth amendment while talking to the grand jury, as part of a strategy to avoid indictment or embarrassment (eg, unindicted co-conspirator). It is unlikely that anyone with first hand knowledge of someone else's doping practices would be completely innocent of them themselves. The witness gets to decide if anything that might come out would be in any way embarrassing or incriminating, and may decline to speak; and the witness need not specify what the possible issue may be.

-dB

 

[Darryl Webster]

Ta for the welcome peeps.

What did I see?. In uk pro scene I saw injected "supplements" that I believe to have been legal..Glucose , Iron etc.
I saw what I believe to be amphetimine shortly before a criterioum injected by two riders sharing the same neadle. One is currently working for a very succesful national team linked to a very well known sattalite broadcaster.
I`m aware ( cus I was there) of a urine from a team manager being passed in a drinks can to the same rider to curcumnavigate medical control and that when a certain race organistion got wind of it there action was to tell the manager to pull the team bar the one rider who had won a stage and no other action was taken. Said race organisation had as one of it`s members a certain Pat.
I was outspoken , as riders rep on the then PCA board, about the attitude towards doping within some of the uk ranks and that realy didnt sit well with some people.
My own take on uk pro racing then was nothing we took part in was hard enough to warrent doping. Thats not to say it was always easy but certainly no harder than Star Trophy racing.
Race callusion was as big an issue and one my own wins in 88 was partialy the result of getting away with a top amauter and being told effectivly " make sure your winning this or else youl have to sit on".
And thats exactly what happened.

With Teka I saw only the personal injecting of what I believe to be Iron by a good German rider but I have to say my time at Teka was not a good one and I actualy got to race very little that year.
What I did find is that my over the counter vitamin supplents consisting of vit C, Pharmaton and Metatone Tonic seemed to be viewed with much mirth.
Gossip about who used what included a uk " untouchable" who got a certain KOM in a certein big tour using HGH and steroid use amongst serveral top names on the uk scene. The first mutterings of epo I ever heard were in 89...Gert Jan Tunisse and Stevan Rooks being mentioned...but very little was known by most at that time I felt.
I rode alongside Lemond in the very early season Tour Of Americas in 89 and Id say , judging on how he was strugling , over weight etc that I`d accept Lemond as possibly the only "clean" winner of the TDF ever.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Before anyone "shreds" me for bad spelling..im mildly dislexic so please be tollerant!

 

[Jimmy Riddle]

Mr Webster, I do apologise that one of the forum members has tried to drag you into one of his petty disputes with another user. Be assured that you can freely talk to anybody here without fear of offending any particular clique.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Mr Webster, I do apologise that one of the forum members has tried to drag you into one of his petty disputes with another user. Be assured that you can freely talk to anybody here without fear of offending any particular clique.

Dont fret Jimmy, I can give as I good as I get...Im thick skinned and like a good "fight"..

 

[Polish]

Ta for the welcome peeps.

What did I see?. In uk pro scene I saw injected "supplements that believe to have been legal..Glucose , Iron etc.
I saw what I believe to be amphetimine shortly before a criterioum injected by two riders sharing the same neadle. One is currently working for a very succesful nastional team linked to a very well known sattalite broadcaster.
Im aware ( cus i was there) of a urine from a team manager being passed in a drinks can to the same rider to curcumnavigate medical control and that when a certain race organistion got wind of it there action was to tell the manager to pull the team bar the one rider who had won a stage and no other action was taken. Said race organisation had as one of its members a certain Pat.
I was outspoken , as riders rep on the then PCA board about the attitude towards doping within some within the uk ranks and that realy didnt sit well with some people.
My own take on uk pro racing then was nothing we took part in was hard enough to warrent doping. Thats not to say it was always easy but certainly no harder than Star Trophy racing.
Race callusion was as big an issue and one my own wins in 88 was the partialy the result of getting away with a top amaueter and being told effectivly " make sure your winning this or else youl have to sit on".
And thats exactly what happened.

With Teka I saw only the personal injecting of what I believe to be Iron by a good German rider but I have to say my time at Teka was not a good one and I actualy got to race very little that year.
What I did find is that my over the counter vitamin supplents consisting of vit C, Pharnaton and Metatone Tonic seemed to be viewed with much mirth.
Gossip about used what included a uk " untouchable" who got a certain KOM in a centern big tour using HGH and steroid use amongst serveral top names on the uk scene. The first mutterings of epo I ever heard were in 89...Gert Jan Tunisse and Stevan Rooks being mentioned...but very little was known by most at that time I felt.
I rode alongside Lemond in the very early season Tour Of Americas in 89 and Id say , judging on how he was strugling , over weight etc that Id accept Lemond as possibly the only "clean" winner of the TDF ever.

Darryl, thanks for your insights.

We fans are kept out of the doping loop, and here in "The Clinic" most doping accounts are not first person accounts. Well, Floyds was interesting!

Thanks again for your thoughtful response. Cheers