Fignon's allegations of bribery by the Columbians

[beroepsrenner]

Fignon's revelations don't come as a surprise to me. This kind of wheeling and dealing has always been common. Herera's denial also comes as no surprise either. Who is going to admit publicly that they paid money to ensure a win. The part I find funny is that the Renault team were not going to attack any way. I dont remember the details of this race but if Renault were the strongest team, and they may well have been at this time, then regardless of where they were placed on GC they may well have posed a danger to a Columbian win. Offering an "incentive" to them not to do so would have been the obvious strategy. As to the suggestion that Fignon was racist toward the Columbians also comes as no surprise. Although I didnt know him personally, from what I saw of him around hotel dining rooms etc, he was quite aloof and full of himself and the French being what they are probably considered the Columbians to be out of their league in the pro peloton. There was a time when they saw Australians in the same light.

 

[Dedelou]

Fignon's revelations don't come as a surprise to me. This kind of wheeling and dealing has always been common. Herera's denial also comes as no surprise either. Who is going to admit publicly that they paid money to ensure a win. The part I find funny is that the Renault team were not going to attack any way. I dont remember the details of this race but if Renault were the strongest team, and they may well have been at this time, then regardless of where they were placed on GC they may well have posed a danger to a Columbian win. Offering an "incentive" to them not to do so would have been the obvious strategy. As to the suggestion that Fignon was racist toward the Columbians also comes as no surprise. Although I didnt know him personally, from what I saw of him around hotel dining rooms etc, he was quite aloof and full of himself and the French being what they are probably considered the Columbians to be out of their league in the pro peloton. There was a time when they saw Australians in the same light.

Amazing how it works.. I can see how somepeople here are not afraid to go on the limb with heavy stereotypes and generalizations. If the discussion at end is about the attitude and personality of past racers based on the few comments and superficial knowledge most of us have, this topic is liable to soon turn out to the silly. Cycling is a sport , so we can safely assume: money is part of it. The nature of the road racing is such that "deals" can be made on the moment while a race is in the process. Deals that involve DS to DS arrangements not necessaraly consulting with the riders who must implement the details. Even as the events unfolded, we really don't know what they knew at the time. In some ways it is part of what makes it Cycling special and in those days a little rough and wild. Like crazy fans running up the mountains and waiting several days for a good spot on the tourmalet, like million of people in such of proximity of their idols that disaster could happen at any time and yet so rarely does. We are part of amazing paradox. We are a sport a bit different than many, but not immune to racism, greed, or power play. Not knowing very much about psychology i tend to make mistake..but often i get very weary when somebody defends themselves by invoking racism.. i wonder who the real racist ends up to be..

 

[Boeing]

Amazing how it works.. I can see how somepeople here are not afraid to go on the limb with heavy stereotypes and generalizations. If the discussion at end is about the attitude and personality of past racers based on the few comments and superficial knowledge most of us have, this topic is liable to soon turn out to the silly. .

Dogmatic statements and generalizations are part of the norm on this board. Personality and morality police abound and the net result is nothing more than a laundry list of what some like and don't like; by default. Chest beating and finger pointing . Anything to be part of something they really know nothing about

 

[Boeing]

We are part of amazing paradox. We are a sport a bit different than many, but not immune to racism, greed, or power play. Not knowing very much about psychology i tend to make mistake..but often i get very weary when somebody defends themselves by invoking racism.. i wonder who the real racist ends up to be..

quite possibly the smartest poster on this board

bravo

 

[Franklin]

"There is it where we value his credibility-Every time we got back to the peloton, he would ask us if we had Cocaine. Who knows if those were provocations, or perhaps he might liked it, since he confessed he had used it.
He leaves doubts because he won the Tour and now says he used doping substances."

LMAO... so Fignon harasses the Colombians for cocaine who are afraid he is provoking them. The kicker here is it seems that Lolo really was hunting for coke.

Lolo: "Owww Lucho, got Coca?"
Lucho: "No silly frog I no have Coca, go away!"
Lolo: "Aww Lucho don't be stingy... I need Coca!"
Lucho: "I go help Mr. Hinault if you keep this up"
Lolo: "But Lucho, do you at least know if Parra has the good stuff?"
Lucho "F This" *Pulls to the front to help Hinault

 

[Dedelou]

( laughs)
mah! que voy fare.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

i get very weary when somebody defends themselves by invoking racism.. i wonder who the real racist ends up to be..

Wow, that sounds so racist that you must have gotten off of right wing talk radio. So you are saying that any time people say they were discriminated against it automatically means they were fabricating the story and they themselves are the true racists?

 

[beroepsrenner]

It is sometimes unfair to generalise and when I said that Fignon appeared to be "aloof and full of himself" he may have just been shy and introverted. I am open minded. None the less racism is alive and well in the pro peloton.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

As far as Fignon and his story goes...

I don't know if it is true or not. It seems like everyone here assumes that it is. I don't know why. I really don't think Cafe de Colombia had the kind of extra cash to be paying off anybody.

It is amazing to me how so many of the people who display sympathy for the treatment of the first wave of American riders in Europe seem to disbelieve that the Colombians were treated worse than that.

The people here who seem to think that racism and discrimination do not exist are not living in reality.

 

[pmcg76]

As far as Fignon and his story goes...

I don't know if it is true or not. It seems like everyone here assumes that it is. I don't know why. I really don't think Cafe de Colombia had the kind of extra cash to be paying off anybody.

It is amazing to me how so many of the people who display sympathy for the treatment of the first wave of American riders in Europe seem to disbelieve that the Colombians were treated worse than that.

The people here who seem to think that racism and discrimination do not exist are not living in reality.

I think it is not unfeasible that bribery did happen that year, it was more common than we would like to believe. At the end of the day its Fignons words against Herrera until we hear from somebody else. The one thing I do know from regularly reading it in many books, magazines is that the Colombians were mocked by almost everyone in the peloton in the 80s. Strange but one of the first cycling books I ever read was A Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage, so much of what was in that book has proven to be true, it deserves to be treated like a cycling bible.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

I think it is not unfeasible that bribery did happen that year, it was more common than we would like to believe. At the end of the day its Fignons words against Herrera until we hear from somebody else. The one thing I do know from regularly reading it in many books, magazines is that the Colombians were mocked by almost everyone in the peloton in the 80s.

Exactly, the terrible way the Colombian riders were treated has been well established.

 

[beroepsrenner]

As far as Fignon and his story goes...

I don't know if it is true or not. It seems like everyone here assumes that it is. I don't know why. I really don't think Cafe de Colombia had the kind of extra cash to be paying off anybody.

It is amazing to me how so many of the people who display sympathy for the treatment of the first wave of American riders in Europe seem to disbelieve that the Colombians were treated worse than that.

The people here who seem to think that racism and discrimination do not exist are not living in reality.

You would be very naive to think that it didnt happen and the amount of money involved is not important. In fact the Columbians probably had more finances at their disposal than we are all aware of. There was more than coffee backing their team. I have been directly involved in these kind of deals many times.
As for the reaction to the seven elevens' arrival in Europe, it was more one of contempt rather than racist. Who were these pretenders coming from a non cycling nation to race in the big league? Once they got some results on the board things soon changed. It was pretty much the same for the Columbians. A mix of racism and contempt from the arrogent Europeans who used to think they had a monopoly on pro cycling. How things have changed in the last 20 years.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

You would be very naive to think that it didnt happen and the amount of money involved is not important. In fact the Columbians probably had more finances at their disposal than we are all aware of. There was more than coffee backing their team. I have been directly involved in these kind of deals many times.

The amount of money is pretty important as a "bonus" from the rider's perspective. Do not know if the sponsors or team could allow this sort of trade. After all, we know that large sums of money are invested into doping, equal or superior to the sum that is mentioned (I guess you would have to multiply it 7 to 10 times, to encompass all riders and the manager).

I don't think anyone contests that such deals existed and exists, and that the story is plausible. But in this particular case, it's word against word as of now. And while Fignon may have no apparent motive to lie about this, that does not mean we should take it for granted.

 

[beroepsrenner]

The amount of money is pretty important as a "bonus" from the rider's perspective. Do not know if the sponsors or team could allow this sort of trade. After all, we know that large sums of money are invested into doping, equal or superior to the sum that is mentioned (I guess you would have to multiply it 7 to 10 times, to encompass all riders and the manager).

I don't think anyone contests that such deals existed and exists, and that the story is plausible. But in this particular case, it's word against word as of now. And while Fignon may have no apparent motive to lie about this, that does not mean we should take it for granted.

Fair comment and any "bonus" to a rider's income in the 80s would have been welcomed as salaries were a long way short of what is paid nowdays. As far as sponsors are concerned, they are never aware of these "goings on" as it is only between riders and DSs of the teams concerned and other teams within the race would usually be unaware or these little maneuvourings wouldnt work. Fignon's other comment that he just wanted the race over so that he could go home sounds familliar to me. As a pro you race so much that sometimes you just dont want to be there at all, just like any job I guess.

 

[Hammerhed]

rascism

All this talk of rascism in the peloton brings to mind the Giro of a few years ago when one of the podium girls, was a very cute and fresh (as opposed to sultry and sexy) slim young girl of black-African heritage. Well, that year DiLuca and Ricco and Selle were rampaging thru the peloton, all the while insulting Contador with names such as "beach boy," etc., as AC steadily picked up form and momentum.

Anyway, I remember DiLuca on the podium often, pulling on the pink jersey: When it was the black girl's turn to give Danilo his "well done" victory reward of a small kiss on the cheek, Danilo would stiffen up and steadfastly refuse to look at that fresh-faced, smiling, beautiful young lovely and refuse to acknowledge her at all. To me it was so obvious that he was thinking of his buds back home and how they would mock him for kissing that particular girl. I was an idiotic Dan DiLuca fan till that Giro, certain that he had been wrongly suspended and fired by LeakyGas. But his treatment of that poor young lady, who by the way never lost her beaming smile, thoroughly ****ed me off. Adding more fuel to my blazing self, more riders treated her in the same manner until one, and I forget who, did what I wished I could have done: He kissed her back and relished the moment and redeemed the peleton in my mind.

So I don't know about payoffs, but I do know that only a few short years ago, my freakin' heroes, the only sports figures I allow myself to admire, disrespected a sweet young vision of loveliness, and did so, probably, without meaning to or even realizing what they had done. It seemed that their rascism is so ingrained and such a fundamental part of their nature, that generations will have to pass before any change happens.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

As far as sponsors are concerned, they are never aware of these "goings on" as it is only between riders and DSs of the teams concerned and other teams within the race would usually be unaware or these little maneuvourings wouldnt work.

I should have use the word "afford" instead of "allow".
Raises an interesting question though: are sponsors loose on their teams? I am sure experienced staff would have no problem obfuscating the accounts. Still the money involved here is a pretty large sum, and the same goes for some doping expenses (Saiz was supposedly paying Fuentes when they were arrested, something in the tens of thousand euros).

Don't ask, don't tell?

 

[beroepsrenner]

I should have use the word "afford" instead of "allow".
Raises an interesting question though: are sponsors loose on their teams? I am sure experienced staff would have no problem obfuscating the accounts. Still the money involved here is a pretty large sum, and the same goes for some doping expenses (Saiz was supposedly paying Fuentes when they were arrested, something in the tens of thousand euros).

Don't ask, don't tell?

all this kind of stuff would be handled seperately to official team business.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

all this kind of stuff would be handled seperately to official team business.

With some sort of "black account", taken from the sponsor's money or financed by the riders out of prizes and salaries, I suppose.

 

[hfer07]

With some sort of "black account", taken from the sponsor's money or financed by the riders out of prizes and salaries, I suppose.

relate to the 2004 TDF when Riis & Bruyneel "exchanged" services..there is a story of a "package" being handed over to Riis by Bruyneel, and I bet it didn't contain Lance's autographed photos...
when Teams have great budgets, there is always money "available" to do those things, but- back to the topic- I find "ridiculous" that a TDF winner like Fignon says he was "young & naive" about those "deals" offered around the peloton...I recall the deals were always offered to the domestiques-instead of the Leader(s) not to "protect" them during a breakaway, or to pase someone at some specific stage. the more I look back to what took place then, the more convinced I am of the Fignon's personal vendetta against the columbians..

 

[Anonymous]

Read the book, "Dog in a Hat" It discusses this stuff...

 

[beroepsrenner]

Read the book, "Dog in a Hat" It discusses this stuff...

A Dog in a Hat is the most accurate account of the real world of pro cycling that I have ever read. Parkins european experience is almost identical to my own even the way he arrived in Belgium including the train ride from Brussel airport to St Pieters station in Gent and being so tired that went to the first hotel he saw. Probably the same one.
As for Fignon claiming to be young and naive, we all were. Just like doping, these interactions between teams and individuals were seen as part of the sport you commited yourself to and to question it would have been swimming against the flow.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

But his treatment of that poor young lady, who by the way never lost her beaming smile, thoroughly ****ed me off. Adding more fuel to my blazing self, more riders treated her in the same manner until one, and I forget who, did what I wished I could have done: He kissed her back and relished the moment and redeemed the peleton in my mind.

Yeah there seems to be a lot of racism around. That is really sad.

However, don't worry too much about the girl. She is obviously a model, and probably makes more money than half the pro racers out there.