File under "You have got to be &$(%ing kidding me?!

[The Hitch]

What is pointless is Lemond making these sorts of statements as if because he says it well it has to be true.

The oddest thing about Evans is that he seems to get support that others don't get. Tyler Hamilton, Tom Boonen, Lemond, Wiggins and a few others plus some high profile journalists came out and said Evans is clean.

err how would any of them know? And 2 of those guys said contador was clean. To look to them as any authority on the subject is taking fanboyism to the extreme.

 

[sniper]

err how would any of them know? And 2 of those guys said contador was clean. To look to them as any authority on the subject is taking fanboyism to the extreme.

i'm not sure he is.
i think he's asking an interesting question: why is Evans - an obvious doper - getting so much vocal support (i.e. people alleging he's clean)?

 

[The Hitch]

i'm not sure he is.
i think he's asking an interesting question: why is Evans - an obvious doper - getting so much vocal support (i.e. people alleging he's clean)?

No, he's pulling at strings to make an argument for a rider he likes.

What vocal support is it? Hincapie? Who is still lying 3 years after Armstrong fell? Wiggins who said Lance and Vino was clean. A bunch of riders who never rode with Evans. A bunch of riders who have lied time and time again. A bunch of riders who have said people are clean before and been proven wrong.

Ligget. Australian tabloids. Kirby

There are 2 things in common with all the "support" Evans has received over the years

1- the people/ organizations who offer it are proven liars with bull**** factors somewhere between 90 and 100
2 - Not a single explanation has been given as to why they actually think Evans was clean.

Whenever anyone has been pushed it has come out that the only argument behind Evans being clean was a racist - he's australian/ English speaker. Most of the people who said Evans was clean were at the same time defending Armstrong under the exact same logic.

 

[Nick C.]

Aren't the Evans arguments that he has come crazy high VO2max or some such test result and that he worked with the late Aldo Sassi, who seems to have an image as a clean trainer? His career arc is smoother. There are no extraterrestrial performances, maybe the Galibier stage would come the closest, the Worlds was rolling off the front with Purito and one other while nd everyone else looked at Cancellara to chase, there is no Sestriere/Hautacam/LaPlagne ...
That is not proof of anything just what pops to mind

 

[Escarabajo]

No, he's pulling at strings to make an argument for a rider he likes.

What vocal support is it? Hincapie? Who is still lying 3 years after Armstrong fell? Wiggins who said Lance and Vino was clean. A bunch of riders who never rode with Evans. A bunch of riders who have lied time and time again. A bunch of riders who have said people are clean before and been proven wrong.

Ligget. Australian tabloids. Kirby

There are 2 things in common with all the "support" Evans has received over the years

1- the people/ organizations who offer it are proven liars with bull**** factors somewhere between 90 and 100
2 - Not a single explanation has been given as to why they actually think Evans was clean.

Whenever anyone has been pushed it has come out that the only argument behind Evans being clean was a racist - he's australian/ English speaker. Most of the people who said Evans was clean were at the same time defending Armstrong under the exact same logic.

About your second point:
2- If I am not mistaken everything started with the TELEKOM cycling team all getting sick during a Vuelta a Espa?a. Not sure the year. All but him.
- There has been also arguments about having a high VO2 max (88) but not extraterrestial performances.

Just repeating what others have said.

 

[Benotti69]

Aren't the Evans arguments that he has come crazy high VO2max or some such test result and that he worked with the late Aldo Sassi, who seems to have an image as a clean trainer? His career arc is smoother. There are no extraterrestrial performances, maybe the Galibier stage would come the closest, the Worlds was rolling off the front with Purito and one other while nd everyone else looked at Cancellara to chase, there is no Sestriere/Hautacam/LaPlagne ...
That is not proof of anything just what pops to mind

Sassi doesn't have a clean reputation.

 

[The Hitch]

Aren't the Evans arguments that he has come crazy high VO2max or some such test result and that he worked with the late Aldo Sassi, who seems to have an image as a clean trainer? His career arc is smoother. There are no extraterrestrial performances, maybe the Galibier stage would come the closest, the Worlds was rolling off the front with Purito and one other while nd everyone else looked at Cancellara to chase, there is no Sestriere/Hautacam/LaPlagne ...
That is not proof of anything just what pops to mind

No extraterrestrial performance? 99.9% of dopers could never on their best day go as fast as Evans routinely dis on his worst. The idea that because there have been 2 or 3 riders in cycling history who were simply better than Evans/ better responders he may have been clean is the seed for all clean cycling delusions. Saying that he won the world's cos of tactics is no different to saying that froome is clean because everytime he won the competition was weak. Mendrisio was the second hardest world's this side of the end of communism. It took place in one of the dirtiest years in the history of the sport, and one in which anti doping was at it's very weakest with almost no one actually caught. Everyone who did anything that year got caught doping in the following years (contador, Menchov, pellizoti, Valverde, lance, Basso, kloeden, Frank, cunego ) while others got caught the year before (including dekker and reb) but only a handful (di Luca asteraloza) that year and it had some of the best performances ever. It was clearly the year doping got ahead of anti doping following cera ans the tour busts.
All the pre race favourites were dopers, all the guys fighting for the win were dopers all on top programmes. Evans hung with them with no team for 250km then had the energy to ride away and keep of dopers like murito and kolobnev. 2 weeks after completing the vuelta in which he was arguably the strongest rider and in contention the entire time.

He did all that naturally? Against guys who had every drug at their disposal. He held off in the mountains of gts guys like kohl and schleck and ricco etc who were epoing day after day after day inn years even the "cycling is clean" now brigade concede were totally overrun by doping. Come on.

 

[Nick C.]

No extraterrestrial performance? 99.9% of dopers could never on their best day go as fast as Evans routinely dis on his worst. The idea that because there have been 2 or 3 riders in cycling history who were simply better than Evans/ better responders he may have been clean is the seed for all clean cycling delusions. Saying that he won the world's cos of tactics is no different to saying that froome is clean because everytime he won the competition was weak. Mendrisio was the second hardest world's this side of the end of communism. It took place in one of the dirtiest years in the history of the sport in a few, and one in which anti doping was at it's very weakest with almost no one actually caught. All the pre race favourites were dopers, all the guys fighting for the win were dopers all on top programmes. Evans hung with them with no team for 250km then had the energy to ride away and keep of dopers like murito and kolobnev. 2 weeks after completing the vuelta in which he was arguably the strongest rider and in contention the entire time.

He did all that naturally? Against guys who had every drug at their disposal. He held off in the mountains of gts guys like kohl and schleck and ricco etc who were epoing day after day after day inn years even the "cycling is clean" now brigade concede were totally overrun by doping. Come on.

I kinda expected a response along those lines. You asked why people are so gung ho beyond jingoism and I threw out some possibilities.
At least I didn't say he never tested positive.

What about the VO2 max stories, Lance for example is alleged by Lemond to have a rather unexceptional one.

I don't really want to come off as a Pollyanna but if you are going to ask questions don't go throwing rocks at people that try to answer them.

 

[Nick C.]

Sassi doesn't have a clean reputation.

I knew he was Mapei, but I though Basso went there to rehab his image and even Ricco did the same. What am I missing? That's a real question not an attack.

 

[42x16ss]

Evans was tested at the AIS at 21 and had a VO2 max of around 88 already. I've always suspected that he's a rider with better natural talent but less potential to respond to epo/transfusions than the majority of riders. Maybe this is the reason for the support from sections of the peloton mentioned earlier?

 

[thehog]

Evans was tested at the AIS at 21 and had a VO2 max of around 88 already. I've always suspected that he's a rider with better natural talent but less potential to respond to epo/transfusions than the majority of riders. Maybe this is the reason for the support from sections of the peloton mentioned earlier?

McGee and Aiken were higher. 93.

Evans is old school. Its well known. Vo2 Max has little to do with being a responder. His blood is more of value, pardon the pun.

 

[Netserk]

I'd say there's a fairly good chance he was on EPO already then.

 

[thehog]

I'd say there's a fairly good chance he was on EPO already then.

Agreed.


......

 

[red_flanders]

I kinda expected a response along those lines.

As did I. Because it all makes sense, and there are a few folks here who think critically. Don't see anyone countering these very good arguments.

 

[TailWindHome]

........................

 

[blackcat]

McGee and Aiken were higher. 93.

Evans is old school. Its well known. Vo2 Max has little to do with being a responder. His blood is more of value, pardon the pun.

I thought Evans tested at 92. Walker was 92. I was not aware Mcgee was that high,are you sure hog?

 

[Dr. Juice]

Don't forget the Giro 2002 against Savoldelli and Hamilton. Doping at its finest during those years. He might have won without that horrible bonking.

 

[42x16ss]

McGee and Aiken were higher. 93.

Evans is old school. Its well known. Vo2 Max has little to do with being a responder. His blood is more of value, pardon the pun.

Really? Several AIS sources say that Evans is still the highest they've ever tested.

There is a chance he was already starting to get into it, as he was already a world class MTB'er at that age. Just floating possibilities. There's no denying that Evans was a world class junior though.

 

[roundabout]

He might have won riding for a team other than Mapei

To be in pink with 4 stages to go as a first year pro on a team with limited GT "prep" shows what a supreme talent Evans was

Edit: make it second year pro as he rode for Saeco for longer than I remembered

 

[blackcat]

He might have won riding for a team other than Mapei

To be in pink with 4 stages to go as a first year pro on a team with limited GT "prep" shows what a supreme talent Evans was

Edit: make it second year pro as he rode for Saeco for longer than I remembered

never rode for Saeco. He rode one Weisbauer Tour because Rominger wanted to sell him to a major.

And he won that Weisbauer Rund in 2001.

he also was 3rd in u19 jnr tt on Robbie Mcewen's chrono bike in 1995. Think Josh Collingwood an australian rider who became a doctor of medicine, came second or won that u19 Worlds tt. That was when Evans was a mtb'er and they drafted him onto the road team.

no doubt, Evans was a phenomenal talent.

Volvo-Cannondale mtb team in n america =/= Saeco-Cannondale. But Tony Rominger his manager had him drafted to Saeco to get across to the road on a big contract with a major team

 

[blackcat]

He might have won riding for a team other than Mapei

To be in pink with 4 stages to go as a first year pro on a team with limited GT "prep" shows what a supreme talent Evans was

Edit: make it second year pro as he rode for Saeco for longer than I remembered

the people behind the scenes in MApei were amazed because they said words to the affect of "i can't believe his performance/ability/talent because we dont have him on anything".

that is when Garzelli was popped for the stimulant that daryl impey got done for probenicid. And Impey is one of my favourite riders.

 

[blackcat]

Really? Several AIS sources say that Evans is still the highest they've ever tested.

There is a chance he was already starting to get into it, as he was already a world class MTB'er at that age. Just floating possibilities. There's no denying that Evans was a world class junior though.

the highest is the rower. But rowers always test higher because of the upper body demand

 

[The Hitch]

Maybe this is the reason for the support from sections of the peloton mentioned earlier?

Has Evans actually had more support than the average anglophone rider. There are dozens who say Froome is clean as well, dozens who say Wiggins is clean, dozens who said Armstrong was clean etc.

 

[The Hitch]

As did I. Because it all makes sense, and there are a few folks here who think critically. Don't see anyone countering these very good arguments.

I aint going to get on peoples tits if they say they think Evans was a super talented rider who 30 years ago might have been winning gts pre EPO.

The same arguments seem to have been made for Contador and Pantani both of whom showed real good talent in tests as well. Quintana as well from those who believe ghost pre gt visits to Colombia are a strange way to prepare for gts.

But to argue, in 2015 when even the sell out journos concede the entire decade was lost to doping, that a guy who finished 4th in the Tour de Operation Puerto, a few seconds behind Contador the year he broke the Peyresoudes record in which the Tour was almost suspended becuase of all the doping, thrashed the likes of Kohl in 2008 in the year everyone was on CERA, won the 2009 Worlds in the year 37 year old Armstrong humiliated everyone involved in anti doping was doing it clean. Its not like he was just resting and peaking for the Tour either. In 2007 he finished world number 1 in both the UCI rankings and the cq rankings. Over the second half of the decade he scored more cq points than anyone sans Alejandro Valverde and probably top 4 or 5 for the entire decade which included all Armstrongs tours.
Come on guys, its like arguing over whether the world is round and some people saying there are good reasons to believe it might be flat.

 

[blackcat]

Has Evans actually had more support than the average anglophone rider. There are dozens who say Froome is clean as well, dozens who say Wiggins is clean, dozens who said Armstrong was clean etc.

ask Thomas Frei