As the primary argument of his doping?Cookster15 said:It was not stated by Hitch but clearly inferred - otherwise 2007 PdB would not even be discussed on this thread. Anyhow, I think Hitch has just answered your challenge on my behalf ?
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As the primary argument of his doping?Cookster15 said:It was not stated by Hitch but clearly inferred - otherwise 2007 PdB would not even be discussed on this thread. Anyhow, I think Hitch has just answered your challenge on my behalf ?
Netserk said:As the primary argument of his doping?
Netserk said:3) Even without his jour sans on PdB, he still wouldn't have beaten Chicken. If he had had a good day he would still have lost time, just less than the 1'52''. If he had been with Leipheimer he would only have lost 40''. In that case he would've been 3'51'' behind Rasmussen before the last ITT (of course it would have been more than that since both Contador and Rasmussen completely ignored Evans on Aubisque and only concentrated about each other. Rasmussen could easily have distanced Evans by more that day if he had to). For Rasmussen to lose 3'52'' to Evans in the last ITT he would have to place 30th in the ITT 4'43'' behind Leech. He would have to lose more than a minute to Valverde that day (the same Valverde he caught and passed in the first ITT that year). Heck even if Evans was good enough to win over Chicken and Contador on PdB in a sprint, he still wouldn't have beaten Chicken in the final GC.
jens_attacks said:the confusion comes because someone(don't know who) said that in 1998 they finished at a 50 meters lower altitude
Evans was 1'04 faster than Contador (6th with Vino removed) who still beat the likes of:roundabout said:Obliterated? He was something like a minute faster in the first TT which was over an hour long.
That's not obliterated.
42x16ss said:Evans was 1'04 faster than Contador (6th with Vino removed) who still beat the likes of:
Cancellara
Kirchen
Millar
Leipheimer
Lang
And was only 4s behind Wigans in 4th.
Kirchen could never tt in his first ten years out of the jnrs.42x16ss said:Evans was 1'04 faster than Contador (6th with Vino removed) who still beat the likes of:
Cancellara
Kirchen
Millar
Leipheimer
Lang
And was only 4s behind Wigans in 4th.
and he was still doping. you dont just switch overnight.The Hitch said:A Bradley Wiggins who one might add gave up track cycling for two years specifically to win that tt and suggested after failing to do so that he was done with road cycling.
Plus also there is Cancellara listed but he was only 26 in 2007 - still maturing. In 2007 Evans was 30 - probably at his peak physiology for a GC rider.blackcat said:Kirchen could never tt in his first ten years out of the jnrs.
The TdF tt, is a decent opportunity for a rider like Segei Gonchar to peak for the Tour and the tt, and forget about the p/w to go up hill. Grabsch really never did anything til later in his career.
and Sebastian LAng and Michael Rich never could win a worlds or a TdF tt.
The stage race tts are different from one day specialist tts. And different from GT tts again. I always thought the TdF tt was the defacto World Champs tt.
And in the 90s, the GP des Nations which always was pretty long65km +/- 5 km, was the defacto worlds tt.
You need to go au bloc to win the tt. But the GC players, they need to be ready to ride the next day. A rider like Schumacher or Honchar, who does not have to worry about GC, can go au bloc, without worrying about the next day. And they can come in with the gruppetto in the preceding days.
... and it is impossible to neutralise it for these factors. But they can give a wider insight into the tt finishes in the stage!
Cancellara post those 3 World Champs from Rogers, when one was actually Dave Millars, Cancellara was still nigh unbeatable. A few years, and those years, he never performed inthe cobbles. But he did have a good result as a 20/21 yo i think, in Roubaix, well before he started killing chronos.Cookster15 said:Plus also there is Cancellara listed but he was only 26 in 2007 - still maturing. In 2007 Evans was 30 - probably at his peak physiology for a GC rider.
Cancellara, Millar, Lang, Wigans, Kloden, Kaschechkin and a couple of others all targeted the two long ITT's that year (50km and 55km respectively) and Contador was right amongst them while out climbing Leipheimer and pressuring the Chicken in the mountains. Yet Evans thrashed them all, both days, to the point where he nearly stole the race.blackcat said:Kirchen could never tt in his first ten years out of the jnrs.
The TdF tt, is a decent opportunity for a rider like Segei Gonchar to peak for the Tour and the tt, and forget about the p/w to go up hill. Grabsch really never did anything til later in his career.
and Sebastian LAng and Michael Rich never could win a worlds or a TdF tt.
The stage race tts are different from one day specialist tts. And different from GT tts again. I always thought the TdF tt was the defacto World Champs tt.
And in the 90s, the GP des Nations which always was pretty long65km +/- 5 km, was the defacto worlds tt.
You need to go au bloc to win the tt. But the GC players, they need to be ready to ride the next day. A rider like Schumacher or Honchar, who does not have to worry about GC, can go au bloc, without worrying about the next day. And they can come in with the gruppetto in the preceding days.
... and it is impossible to neutralise it for these factors. But they can give a wider insight into the tt finishes in the stage!
yep, yep, yep42x16ss said:Cancellara, Millar, Lang, Wigans, Kloden, Kaschechkin and a couple of others all targeted the two long ITT's that year (50km and 55km respectively) and Contador was right amongst them while out climbing Leipheimer and pressuring the Chicken in the mountains. Yet Evans thrashed them all, both days, to the point where he nearly stole the race.
I want to play devil's advocate and say that Evans was a doped but very talented rider and that the list you provided are a bunch of doped to the gills riders. And some of them I have doubts about their true talent. So Millar, Lang, Autubus Wigans, Kloden, Whereaboubts Kaschechkin were supposed to beat Evans in the TT?????42x16ss said:Cancellara, Millar, Lang, Wigans, Kloden, Kaschechkin and a couple of others all targeted the two long ITT's that year (50km and 55km respectively) and Contador was right amongst them while out climbing Leipheimer and pressuring the Chicken in the mountains. Yet Evans thrashed them all, both days, to the point where he nearly stole the race.
Escarabajo said:I did not put Wiggans in that Category because he proved his worth on the Track but never repeated his success on the road. Not from the beginning like the great ones have done. Not until he started playing with the hot Sauce. So you have to question who really was up to the task of challenging Evans on the TT.
Cookster15 said:Well I think we can now discount the Pyrenees in 2007 as strong evidence of Evans doping.
Does it matter if you dope big or small?
Carstenbf said:I've come to believe it does. In the somewhat twisted minds of the 'old guard' a bit of T and cortisone coupled with rest day BBs could be conceived as 'clean'.
Whereas going full genius chicken-style with 6 BBs + epo/aicar + whatnot, was deemed unacceptable in the eyes of many. Honor amongst thieves etc.
In this light I'd probably count Evans among the 'old guard'. Dunno really, just speculating tbh.
Escarabajo said:I want to play devil's advocate and say that Evans was a doped but very talented rider and that the list you provided are a bunch of doped to the gills riders. And some of them I have doubts about their true talent.
Carstenbf said:I've come to believe it does. In the somewhat twisted minds of the 'old guard' a bit of T and cortisone coupled with rest day BBs could be conceived as 'clean'.
Whereas going full genius chicken-style with 6 BBs + epo/aicar + whatnot, was deemed unacceptable in the eyes of many. Honor amongst thieves etc.
In this light I'd probably count Evans among the 'old guard'. Dunno really, just speculating tbh.
Cookster15 said:Well I think we can now discount the Pyrenees in 2007 as strong evidence of Evans doping. But his 2007 TT effort in relation to Cancellara still raises my eyebrows somewhat. But as I said, Evans had some pedigree in TT at that point of his career and at his peak age so if he doped I don't think it was 'full genius'.
yep yep yep ^242x16ss said:This sums up how I've always felt about Evans, top tier talent who couldn't take full advantage of doping. Not unlike JV, but even better.