First EPO users in the peloton?

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Originally Posted by NashbarShorts

"Don't know if you followed the sport back then, but this was pretty apparent. Each year there were 2-3 real contenders, and the rest were pretenders.
...


EPO closes that gap. In the prior era, nobody "became" a Tour contender. You either were or you weren't. Fignon won the first Tour he rode in, age 22. As did Hinault, age 23. Lemond, riding support for Fignon, went 3rd in his first Tour, age 23. C'mon. This is anecdotal evidence, but the concept of "emerging into a Tour winner at age 27-30"....that is EPO fairytale stuff."


Why would you want to set in stone things that simply aren't true?

I'd suggest doing a little more reading on Le Tour and it's history. Bobet didn't win his first of three until he was in his late 20's, and his early tours went even worse than Armstrong's. At least Big Tex never broke into tears on the big climbs!

Also, I don't see how EPO "closes the gap". Look at the margin of victory and the time splits among the top 10. Things don't look much different from the early 80's to the peak of the juiced era?

Of course true. Bobet finished 4th in his 2nd Tour. It annoys me every time when posters come up with half-truths just to defend Armstrong. Armstrong was the face of the Epo-Era. 36th and 4 non finishes before turning into a 7-time TdF winner; given interviews without breathing, right after winning mountain top finishes. Not a single bad day in 7 years. etc. etc.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

It´s one of the better threads. Why has it stopped? I got informed about the 80s i didn´t know. The first 23 pages were (almost) as good as a book.

Many questions remain open. What about the south americans (Alcala, Para, Herrera). Did they blood/EPO dope? How comes they disappeared. Even Rujano seems to have no chance nowadays...

What about that rider of the 60s? IIRC, i read a article about Doping were it was described that the Tour-Doc saw a rider using blood-transfusion. I forgot the link. May someone has it...

 

[poupou]

What about that rider of the 60s? IIRC, i read a article about Doping were it was described that the Tour-Doc saw a rider using blood-transfusion. I forgot the link. May someone has it...

It was not blood transfusions. I was a bad translation from french to english of a book about doping of Pr. Mondenard.
I should be able to find it later, I have to remember the name of the Italian rider or the TDF doctor to search efficiently.

----
It was Gaston Nencini found by Docteur Dumas in his hotel room with a perfusion of male hormone.http://books.google.fr/books?id=RjA...oks Dictionnaire du dopage&hl=en&pg=RA1-PA896

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

That would be great.

I think it was in Velonews. But i am not sure.

Edit: Oh, i saw you just gave the link. Is there any Link in english or german. Unlucky i don´t speak french. Because of that many good books i couldn´t read

 

[poupou]

You can have a look there :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
That part is listed

In 1960, Pierre Dumas walked into a hotel bedroom on his nightly tour of teams to find eventual winner Gastone Nencini prone on his bed with a plastic tube running from each arm to a bottle containing hormones.[23] However, the hormone injection was not illegal at the time, and indeed only few were disqualified or sanctioned whenever they were found out to use doping

 

[Escarabajo]

Parra was 33 years old when he retired. His last year was 1992.

Herrera retired young, 31 I think. He had a famous quote that goes something like this:" I decided to retire when I started to see fat asses climb like mountain goats" "That was when I realized there was something else was going on in the Peloton". His last year was 1992. He was born in 1961. He got caught in the EPO era.

 

[red_flanders]

Parra was 33 years old when he retired. His last year was 1992.

Herrera retired young, 31 I think. He had a famous quote that goes something like this:" I decided to retire when I started to see fat asses climb like mountain goats" "That was when I realized there was something else was going on in the Peloton". His last year was 1992. He was born in 1961. He got caught in the EPO era.

I think that pretty much sums it all up as far as what changed in the sport.

Talented riders forced out by doping clowns, where before doping didn't fundamentally change the game.

 

[racer-x]

I think the interesting thing about Rominger is how he used to say that he couldn't perform well in the summer b/c of allergies...then, sometime in the early 90's he was "cured".

This seems to fit well with what I've heard, that a lot of the drugs they used to take had a lesser effect in the hot weather, but seemed to work just fine in the spring/fall.

Anyone else have a take on this?

I worked in a bike shop in Colorado in the early 90's and Rominger stopped by when he was there doing "altitude" training. I met him and his trainer... Michele Ferrari.

It was probably just an improvement in his allergies though...

 

[blutto]

I worked in a bike shop in Colorado in the early 90's and Rominger stopped by when he was there doing "altitude" training. I met him and his trainer... Michele Ferrari.

It was probably just an improvement in his allergies though...

...please don't discount/belittle that particular "improvement" because it can be huge...it certainly was for me...and the late 80's early 90's were when drugs that could effectivelly handle allergies, not mess up the rest of your life with side-effects and were "legal" ( though in some cases requiring a T.U.E. ) became readily available...

...that being said the Ferrari issue while very serious is entirely something else...lets just not conflate the two just to get cheap debating points as it is really unfair to people with genuine allergy issues...

Cheers

blutto

 

[racer-x]

...please don't discount/belittle that particular "improvement" because it can be huge...it certainly was for me...and the late 80's early 90's were when drugs that could effectivelly handle allergies, not mess up the rest of your life with side-effects and were "legal" ( though in some cases requiring a T.U.E. ) became readily available...

...that being said the Ferrari issue while very serious is entirely something else...lets just not conflate the two just to get cheap debating points as it is really unfair to people with genuine allergy issues...

Cheers

blutto

Sorry, not trying to minimize allergy problems.

But, in the context of early EPO adopters, his travels to Colorado with Ferrari in tow is certainly damning. I think it was the summer of 1993.

 

[hrotha]

Sorry, not trying to minimize allergy problems.

But, in the context of early EPO adopters, his travels to Colorado with Ferrari in tow is certainly damning. I think it was the summer of 1993.

I know he went to Colorado in 1994 and I think, but I'm not sure, that he mentioned in an interview he was basically repeating the same program as the previous year.

By 1993-1994 not everybody was on EPO, but it would seem most GT contenders were (and those who weren't had consequently stopped being contenders).

 

[Ninety5rpm]

By 1993-1994 not everybody was on EPO, ...

How do you know that?

 

[hrotha]

How do you know that?

Armstrong wasn't on EPO in 1993-1994. If he wasn't, it's pretty safe to conclude other riders weren't either.

 

[pmcg76]

How do you know that?

I think the French were the last to get on the EPO train in 94/95.

According to Philippe Gaumont, Castorama only switched over to EPO in 95, the team doctor Megret wouldnt give them EPO so they dumped him and got Dr Patrick Nedlec instead who then became team doctor at GAN.

I think GAN were similar to Castorama if their former rider Nicolas Aubier is to be believed.

Festina went over to team wide EPO usage in 94, before that it was individual and uncoordinated.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I think the French were the last to get on the EPO train in 94/95.

According to Philippe Gaumont, Castorama only switched over to EPO in 95, the team doctor Megret wouldnt give them EPO so they dumped him and got Dr Patrick Nedlec instead who then became team doctor at GAN.

I think GAN were similar to Castorama if their former rider Nicolas Aubier is to be believed.

Festina went over to team wide EPO usage in 94, before that it was individual and uncoordinated.

As far as i remember Telekom was the last team to jump the Epo-Train. Pls don´t ask for links (i have too many and can´t find anything when i need it).

Basically the company managment was about to stop the sponsorship in 1994 or 1995. They wanted results. Then the team signed Rijs. He won. Dr. Schmidt & Co. installed a program. The rest is history.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

You can have a look there :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
That part is listed

Thanks. I still wonder how velonews (?) could misinterpet that as Blood-Doping... May someone knows

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Parra was 33 years old when he retired. His last year was 1992.

Herrera retired young, 31 I think. He had a famous quote that goes something like this:" I decided to retire when I started to see fat asses climb like mountain goats" "That was when I realized there was something else was going on in the Peloton". His last year was 1992. He was born in 1961. He got caught in the EPO era.

I always liked the columbian riders, especially the funny style of Soler. It seems he was only a one year wonder. Or was it because ASO still had Patrice Clerc until the end of 2008. It seems that 2007 and 2008 were cleaner tours and columbians had a chance again. Sad that with the return of Armstrong the past was reloaded (Pound "retired", Clerc released, Doping controls ended up in chaos for 2009 & 10). I know most of us wait/"pray" for his fall. I admit i wish it too.

 

[Escarabajo]

How do you know that?

Race Radio had some important information about the Motorola doping program. It was discussed in another thread. According to confessions, books and other interviews teams went to EPO gradually and slowly. It wasn't an abrupt change. Power outputs proved that and also it seems logical that not everyrider and Doctors would be sure about the dangers and usage of EPO.

Maybe RR will read this thread and pitch in on that.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

BTW, does someone know how to quote multiple posters in one post. I am in here for over one year and still didn´t figure it out.

 

[Escarabajo]

I worked in a bike shop in Colorado in the early 90's and Rominger stopped by when he was there doing "altitude" training. I met him and his trainer... Michele Ferrari.

It was probably just an improvement in his allergies though...

Enough said. I know that some forists (Including me) go overboard on the doping by association theory, but if your trainer in Ferrari that says it all.

 

[Nick777]

It was slow, there was sharp slowdown. Coincidentally the lap when Viren fell, was the slowest laps of all 25.


Finnish cross country skiers were busted and they confessed, so its absolutely not the question of belief, do I believe it or not; they doped, were busted, they confessed.
(Though, it should be mentioned that Finnish skiers were busted skiers 25 years after Viren. To use this against Viren is the as to use Justin Gatlin bust against Jim Hines results at 1968 Olympics).

I would remind, that my initial post was a response to this sentence:

And lumping all this together is not right. There is indeed hard facts against DDR or 1984 US cycling track team, but there is no hard facts against Viren. If we want to speculate about Viren, we can do this, it is fine.

This makes the world record even more suspicious. He fell over, in a slow race, then broke the world record. No problem.

 

[poupou]

Thanks. I still wonder how velonews (?) could misinterpet that as Blood-Doping... May someone knows

I suppose that Velonews was referring to the same case, I am not aware of an other similar.

That could explain why some people are saying that blood transfusion were used in the old days on TDF.

 

[Le breton]

I suppose that Velonews was referring to the same case, I am not aware of an other similar.

That could explain why some people are saying that blood transfusion were used in the old days on TDF.

This article summarizes views as of circa 1980.
http://www.la84foundation.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1982/ore172/ORE172n.pdf

-zoetemelk transfusion before 1976 and medical reasons for it.
- not everybody convinced of effectiveness and reasons why. This a view that to me seemed prevalent for a long time among physiologist. I mentioned it on another(?) thread, but Andy Coggan disputed that view.

- Drs aware of dangers of procedure, might explain they didn't jump on it all at once.
I'll come back on that important article if/when I find the time.

 

[sherer]

BTW, does someone know how to quote multiple posters in one post. I am in here for over one year and still didn´t figure it out.

instead of clicking the quote button hit the one to the right that is multi quote. When you have done that on all the messages you want then click the quote button

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

That could explain why some people are saying that blood transfusion were used in the old days on TDF.

Correct, at least i thought about it because of that story.