First EPO users in the peloton?

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Jul 4, 2009
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Anti-doping said:
Use of EPO started in 86/87

Greg Lemond for sure was one of the ''pioneers'' to use this new wonderdrug. He used blood-doping up to 87, introduced to epo afte or duringr the 89 giro. Everyone who raced in the pro-peloton those days of course knew all about Lemonds ''miracolous" improvement within a few weeks the summer of 89. From an anemic state to the best rider....but sure the man has a lot of humour with his "B12-story"..

...your problem is that you don't believe in miracles...

Cheers

blutto
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
No way it started in 1986, the Amgen paper on erythropoietin was published in January 1987.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198701083160203

Read: they patented it december 1983

Cycling's ties to Amgen have been mentioned before. Weisel, the guy who owns USA Cycling helped fund Amgen. The patent application for EPO would be well known inside the industry, so the compound would not have been a secret many different ways.

Weisel's cycling reputation was as a charger. "Coached" by Eddie B is just one example.

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Lemond was a natural rider, as in possible.

A key distinction between a natural rider and a charged one is the charged rider is nearly invisible most of the year. Lemond rode at the sharp end of the race with such consistency that it defies doping. Go back to his pre world tour results. The guy slayed fields.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
Cycling's ties to Amgen have been mentioned before. Weisel, the guy who owns USA Cycling helped fund Amgen. The patent application for EPO would be well known inside the industry, so the compound would not have been a secret many different ways.
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Amgen-Inc-company-History.html

By 1986 it showed a humble profit, but 96 percent of its revenues that year came not from products, but from interest income and research partnerships with major drug companies. At this time, Amgen had five genetically engineered drugs undergoing human testing, the most promising of which was erythropoietin, or EPO, a synthetically produced hormone that promotes red blood cell production.


So clinical trials were going on in 1986, it is not impossible cyclists got hold of it but I doubt it. And, did we see extraterrestial surprise perfomances that year?

Nice articles about amgen in the other thread, bit like omega pharma nowadays.
 
May 18, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
A key distinction between a natural rider and a charged one is the charged rider is nearly invisible most of the year. Lemond rode at the sharp end of the race with such consistency that it defies doping. Go back to his pre world tour results. The guy slayed fields.

GL was at the sharp end during 89 and 90, which are the years alluded to in this conversation????? Methinks you have fanboy induced revisionist history.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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ChrisE said:
GL was at the sharp end during 89 and 90, which are the years alluded to in this conversation????? Methinks you have fanboy induced revisionist history.
The only revisionist history is by those who pretend that riders were using EPO in 89
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
I really hate it when people start trolling and always pull the Greg Lemond card.

How far can a fan boy go for an idiot who have lied to millions of people? The doping part, I don't mind so much anymore

it is a sign of desperation. Expect it to only get worse.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Amgen-Inc-company-History.html

By 1986 it showed a humble profit, but 96 percent of its revenues that year came not from products, but from interest income and research partnerships with major drug companies. At this time, Amgen had five genetically engineered drugs undergoing human testing, the most promising of which was erythropoietin, or EPO, a synthetically produced hormone that promotes red blood cell production.


So clinical trials were going on in 1986, it is not impossible cyclists got hold of it but I doubt it. And, did we see extraterrestial surprise perfomances that year?

Nice articles about amgen in the other thread, bit like omega pharma nowadays.

....this idea that EPO was available from the stocks used to conduct cliniical trials has been brought up earlier on this forum in an older thread and been reprised in the Podium Cafe article mentioned up thread...

...the article is here...

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/16...on-the-causes-of-doping-francesco-conconi-and

...and key paragraph is here...

"Perhaps most worryingly, a Danish physician, Søren Kragbak, claimed that in 1989 a Swedish medical company had contacted the Danish cycling fed requesting to be allowed carry out secret EPO tests with Danish cyclists. The Danes turned down the request. Medical companies pimping a product that was designed to treat renal problems might help explain how come so many sports physicians suddenly became aware of the benefits of EPO. By 1991 the sporting uses of EPO were no secret, with medical journals publishing research by Scandinavian and Dutch doctors."

...but do realize that this is rather oddly written because the original source that I quoted elsewhere makes it clear that Le Monde also reported that the availabilty of EPO had occurred much earlier...like at the very least earlier than Jan 88 ...

"EPO was certified as medicine in 1989, but the French newspaper Le Monde reported already at jan.1988, that it was obtainable at the black market as a product in test phase. The Danish physician Søren Kragbak has reported, that in 1989 a Swedish medical company had contacted the Danish Cycling Union, with the request to make a secret EPO test study on selected riders. This was however rejected, since DCU considered it too dangerous. Instead the test programme was allegedly run in collaboration with the Swedish Cross Country team."

...so EPO was not only available but was being pushed well before it was officially approved in late 88...

...btw...the Weisel connection is very very interesting...and its something that should be further looked at very closely...

Cheers

blutto
 
Aug 13, 2009
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blutto said:
...btw...the Weisel connection is very very interesting...and its something that should be further looked at very closely...

It would be interesting to explore.

Prior to EPO being available publicly USAC (Then USCF) explored EPO as a replacement to the failed blood doping program they cobbled together in 84. In the end they decided that EPO was not only against the rules but also too risky........duh.

I remember when I first heard they were looking into it my first thought was not why they were looking into it but how did they find out about the trials?
 
Jul 4, 2009
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....here is piece on Weisel and his connections to several players that are being discussed in this thread...

http://cyclismas.com/2011/11/the-trifecta-that-shaped-u-s-cycling-in-the-armstrong-era/

...some of the connections are eerie given what we know now...and what it does is place EPO, albeit at this point only thru the business dealings of Weisel, directly in the orbit of the world encompassed by American cycling in the 80's...if it is nothing more than a coincidence that would be gratifying...but....

Cheers

blutto
 
Apr 20, 2012
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blutto said:
...and key paragraph is here...

"Perhaps most worryingly, a Danish physician, Søren Kragbak, claimed that in 1989 a Swedish medical company had contacted the Danish cycling fed requesting to be allowed carry out secret EPO tests with Danish cyclists. The Danes turned down the request. Medical companies pimping a product that was designed to treat renal problems might help explain how come so many sports physicians suddenly became aware of the benefits of EPO. By 1991 the sporting uses of EPO were no secret, with medical journals publishing research by Scandinavian and Dutch doctors."

...but do realize that this is rather oddly written because the original source that I quoted elsewhere makes it clear that Le Monde also reported that the availabilty of EPO had occurred much earlier...like at the very least earlier than Jan 88 ...

"EPO was certified as medicine in 1989, but the French newspaper Le Monde reported already at jan.1988, that it was obtainable at the black market as a product in test phase. The Danish physician Søren Kragbak has reported, that in 1989 a Swedish medical company had contacted the Danish Cycling Union, with the request to make a secret EPO test study on selected riders. This was however rejected, since DCU considered it too dangerous. Instead the test programme was allegedly run in collaboration with the Swedish Cross Country team."

...so EPO was not only available but was being pushed well before it was officially approved in late 88...

...btw...the Weisel connection is very very interesting...and its something that should be further looked at very closely...

Cheers

blutto
Is that the same doctor being accused of trying to sell/deliver EPO to others?
Like: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/mar00/mar24news.shtml

Sources must be accurate, or have a lot of simular readings.

This source http://www.bt.dk/sport/laege-afviser-anklager-om-han-tilboed-doping
states you could be right, but still the guy could be lying through his teeth.

Weisel and Amgen are indeed interesting; gunea pig US Postal riders.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
I really hate it when people start trolling and always pull the Greg Lemond card.

How far can a fan boy go for an idiot who have lied to millions of people? The doping part, I don't mind so much anymore


So, 2 new first timer posters -"gregga" and "fearless greg lemond" show up bumping this long dormant thread. Talking about EPO stealing podiums.
Talking to eachother about it.

I think we can expect more of this. Lemond Interns flooding the clinic sigh.
Protecting the myth. The myth that Greg's lack of TdF victories post 1991 was because of dopers and not his own obvious lack of form. Stupid Myth.

I remember back then. Greg trying to understand the reasons for his slipping form. Becoming slower. Lessening motivation. Taco Bell commercials and big business deals. Thinking it was health issues from his hunting accident etc. Back then, I did not view those as "excuses" - I saw them as "reasons".

But after he threw Lance under the bus his reasons changed. He now lost those Tours because of dopers - dopers like Lance. THAT opened up my eyes to the myth. They were not reasons after all - they were EXCUSES. It was not health issues after all - it was the dopers.

That burst my bubble. Do not like people making excuses and do not like people throwing others under busses. Thowing people under busses after they become more famous than you. Yes, I am a Greg "not-liker". Big deal.

And by the way, this thread is about the first EPO users the peloton. Greg's era. Greg is an important part of this discussion. What is this "Greg Card" you speak of. Is "Greg Card" just like "SSDD"? I think it is.

Many would argue that greed and big money rock star pro cycling contracts were a main part of increased usage of EPO. And Big Time Omerta at the beginning of the EPO era. Big Time Omerta.

Yes, the "Greg Card" is appropriate in this thread. Very appropriate.
 
The linked article on the Amgen-Wiesel connection is very interesting:

the Amgen product Epogen had been credited by Lance Armstrong as saving his life during his cancer treatment in the late 90s.

This is highly ironic, because when doping allegations were first made against LA, one of his stock answers was that, having survived cancer, there was no way he would take drugs that might increase the chances of recurrence. In fact, as this article goes on to note, there is increasing evidence linking EPO to increased risk of cancer, or to progression of existing cancer. But this was not appreciated in the late 1990s. So LA was denying that he doped on the basis that his cancer experience made him acutely aware of the health risks of drugs, while at the same taking a drug (shown in the ’99 samples) that he in fact had praised as saving his life during treatment.

I don't know how much more blatant a lie could be. Even those who refuse to accept the very strong evidence of the '99 samples cannot deny that LA was given EPO as treatment, praised the drug, then when he returned to cycling said he would never use it because of its health risks. It might be interesting to ask him exactly when he stopped taking EPO for medical purposes.That is, when was the latest time he would admit to being given the drug.

And Blutto is surely right that EPO was taken by some cyclists in the late 80s. The cluster of suspicious deaths of Dutch and Belgian riders began in 1987 (though it was never proven for certain that EPO caused any of these deaths), and the first rider to be banned for EPO was, according to an old CN story, in 1988.


Yes, the "Greg Card" is appropriate in this thread. Very appropriate.

I have no problem with people bringing him up here. But I’m still waiting for someone to provide evidence that Greg used EPO, or much of anything else, for that matter. There is no Lemond equivalent of the ’99 samples. There is also a large body of evidence of climbing stages showing that power went up significantly higher than the best Lemond, Hinault, etc were able to manage.

Lots of arrows in LA’s quiver, Polish—EPO, blood doping, cortisone, maybe HemAssist. Not so many arrows in Greg’s quiver. Talent is the only one we can so far see sticking out.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Merckx index said:
I have no problem with people bringing him up here. But I’m still waiting for someone to provide evidence that Greg used EPO, or much of anything else, for that matter.

They have searched hard, but no luck. The going rate for any evidence that Greg doped is $300,000.

Must drive Wonderboy nuts that despite his best efforts the only thing he has been able to produce is a few internet trolls
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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blutto said:
...interesting read on Weisel here..

http://books.google.ca/books?id=G2z...AH8x_3LBg&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

...seems his racing results took a big upturn in 89...not drawing any conclusions, just sayin'...

Cheers

blutto

1989 was one of my FAVORITE cycling years!
Had no clue about the doping going on. I was working in the Semiconductor Industry, and during the Tour me and a few others would meet in the morning to discuss the previous day's stage. No internet updates lol. Just a simple box score in the local paper showing the top 10 for stage and top 10 for overall.

Hardly anyone else in the company even knew the Tour was going on. Me and my friends were all hugh Greg fans of course. Not fanboys - that term did not exist back then. But we were rabid fans of Greg. It was cool. In a modern day hipster sense. We had our little Pro Cyling Greg Cult.

I rode my first century that year (followed Greg in the 86 Tour and started riding then) and would be doing double and triple centuries by the time Big Mig the Beast started his awesome run. But Greg really got me into cycling. I have been working in the bike biz now for many years, and it is due to Greg when a push comes to a shove. And I am thankful for that. Thanks Greg:)

So when I said I was a "Greg disliker" I was wrong oops. I do not know Greg personally - but I bet I would like HIM. It was/is some of his behaviors and actions and the timing I did not like. And like I said big deal. Whoopie-do.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Flying down to San Diego twice a week on the private jet to train with Eddie B certainly helped

...as always, you are absolutely bang on...

Your super special little friend

blutto
 
Jul 4, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Flying down to San Diego twice a week on the private jet to train with Eddie B certainly helped

...btw did he avail himself of Eddie B's services in 88 and 90 as well...

Your super duper special little friend

blutto
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Flying down to San Diego twice a week on the private jet to train with Eddie B certainly helped

How is Eddie B doing THESE days? Last time I saw him in the news was when Greg threw that fundraiser to help Eddie get back on his feet after his house fire. Big Turnout at that fundraiser. Lots of cylists, who's who. Wonder if Thom was there. Hope so - worthy cause. Eddie was/is a good guy as far as I could tell. Greg thought so too. Old coach and mentor. Hopefully there would never be any bus-tossing between those two yikes.
 
Polish said:
...

Yes, the "Greg Card" is appropriate in this thread. Very appropriate.
It is only appropriate if you show proof.

And this is not the first time that He is brought into the discussion. We have done this drill many times in this forum. And the way the topic is being discussed follows similar patterns. Same fan boys trying to ruin a thread.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
It is only appropriate if you show proof.

And this is not the first time that He is brought into the discussion. We have done this drill many times in this forum. And the way the topic is being discussed follows similar patterns. Same fan boys trying to ruin a thread.

As for your reasons to dislike Greg, that's fine with me.


Proof of what?
Why is this thread ruined for you?
This thread is about the start of the EPO era. Greg's era.

Greg rode at the beginning of the EPO Era. Proven.
Greg did not break omerta during his riding career. Proven.
Greg did not send letters to doping authorities raising the flag when he was riding. Proven.
Greg had the first million dollar contract. Proven.
Greg inspired young riders to ride in the Tour. Proven.
Big Bucks may have been part of the inspiration. Proven.
Taco Bell beef tacos contain beef and beef byproducts. Proven.
Greg was/is/will be the last clean rider ever to win the TdF. Proven.