First EPO users in the peloton?

[Race Radio]

Greg was/is/will be the last clean rider ever to win the TdF. Proven.

Greg got out of his contract with PDM when they tried to make him part of a team wide doping program. Proven

 

[MarkvW]

They have searched hard, but no luck. The going rate for any evidence that Greg doped is $300,000.

Must drive Wonderboy nuts that despite his best efforts the only thing he has been able to produce is a few internet trolls

Greg Lemond is EPIC. No taint anywhere.

 

[Polish]

Greg got out of his contract with PDM when they tried to make him part of a team wide doping program. Proven

Do you have a link?
Greg knew of a team wide doping program at PDM when?
Was it EPO?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Do you have a link?
Greg knew of a team wide doping program at PDM when?
Was it EPO?

Greg probably knew this right about the time …..the entire team took that right turn into the portajohns! My tummy hurts…..errrrr got the runnsss.

 

[Race Radio]

Do you have a link?
Greg knew of a team wide doping program at PDM when?
Was it EPO?

Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone

 

[blutto]

Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone

...for those who won't read the abstract here is a line that needs a bit of explanation...

"Stanko said LeMond worried that PDM officials would not take no for an answer, believing they might try to put an anabolic steroid into his drink. Steroids are synthetic derivatives of testosterone that can be injected or swallowed."

...so if anyone is more in the know than I, could you please explain that line...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Berzin]

There is a tape of Lemond at a Tour (1991?) where he noticed the speeds becoming astronomical. He said more than once he had never seen a tour where riders were going so hard and so fast for so long, stage after stage. And the mountain stages hand't begun yet. No one bothered to question what was happening right before their very eyes.

This was the beginning of the so-called "Italian Renaissance", where the Italians began winning or playing major roles in almost every major race on the international calendar.

Chiappucci to me was the first Italian who made a mockery of the Tour and of his limited talents, having been a relative nobody for 4 years up until 1990 then suddenly becoming a star with his ridiculous, drug-fueled attacks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Proof of what?
Why is this thread ruined for you?
This thread is about the start of the EPO era. Greg's era.

Greg rode at the beginning of the EPO Era. Proven.
Greg did not break omerta during his riding career. Proven.
Greg did not send letters to doping authorities raising the flag when he was riding. Proven.
Greg had the first million dollar contract. Proven.
Greg inspired young riders to ride in the Tour. Proven.
Big Bucks may have been part of the inspiration. Proven.
Taco Bell beef tacos contain beef and beef byproducts. Proven.
Greg was/is/will be the last clean rider ever to win the TdF. Proven.

Don't forget Escarabajos point was that trolls are ruining this thread, so with your reply = proven.

 

[Polish]

Greg probably knew this right about the time …..the entire team took that right turn into the portajohns! My tummy hurts…..errrrr got the runnsss.

No, it appears Greg knew about the team wide doping program BEFORE the riders got sick. Thanks for the link RR.

Greg knew about the team wide doping program at PDM - but did not raise the flag as far as I can tell. Told his lawyers later when it came down to a contract dispute with PDM. But who in the Cyling Press was told of the team wide doping program before the riders got very sick. Heck, who in the cycling press raised the flag when the riders got sick? What did Greg say as he watched the riders get sick that year?

I am sorry, but imo this is one of the worst cases of omerta I have seen.

 

[Digger]

Kimmage did not mention EPO because he didn't know of it's existence.
In the updated Rough Ride he catalogues the horror stories of EPO, such as the deaths and heart attacks. They all began in the early '90s. Even Paul was shocked though at Festina, in that he didn't know it had gone that bad.

Fignon in his book admits doping...HOWEVER again he says it was really only 91/92 that things went mental. The speeds were beyond belief. He didn't know what was going on until some people 'advised' him to get on it. He said the sight of mules riding like champion throughbreds at the front disgusted him. His idea of doping was to help him be the best he could be...EPO changed riders who were average at best, into champions. Ugrumov is one of my favourite examples...he was at over 60% HCT at one stage.

 

[Dave_1]

I read a couple of pages through and didn't find a Francesco Moser reference. Conconi administered EPO to Pros as an experiment with Ferrari as an assistant according to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi

As RaceRadio mentioned early on, I recall reading reports of young riders dying of heart attacks in pre-Internet Velonews in the late 80's. Maybe they were Dutch? http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=311045&postcount=14

And then I found this post which fits my recollections well. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=851051&postcount=264

Johanes Drajer of PDM died in Autumn 1990 of heart attack caused by EPO abuse. There are no elite pro cyclist deaths before that. EPO hit the peloton in 1990 to 1991.

 

[pmcg76]

Johanes Drajer of PDM died in Autumn 1990 of heart attack caused by EPO abuse. There are no elite pro cyclist deaths before that. EPO hit the peloton in 1990 to 1991.

He actually died in spring 1990, just before Het Volk, PDM didnt race in Het Volk as a mark of respect.

Rudy Dhaenans had moved on from PDM to Panansonic when he developed his heart problems in late 91 I think though this may have related back to his time at PDM. Dhaenans was a good classics rider long before he ever joined PDM though, regularly featuring in Flanders and Paris-Roubaix whilst at Hitachi.

I would imagine any athletes who were experimenting with a new product and had a colleague die from possible usage of said product, it would surely give them the scares for a bit.

I would also like to add that considering that the OP was a European based Pro in 1989, one would think he would have a better idea of when EPO hit the peloton than any of us. Clearly he didnt seem to hear of it during 89 so obvioulsy it was used only by the very rare rider if at all in 89.

 

[Cloxxki]

I have written this before probably.

A well-informed cyclist friend with pharceutical education and great interest in PE legal additives, was on EPO's tail already in teh mid-80's. When he read in medical journals of the way it was supposed to work, he declared that it would ruin sports, and especially cycling. He handed a study mate his research who combined it to a thesis on EPO ~'85-'86.

Now this friend says that the Dutch speed skaters in Calgary (early 1988) looking suspect. Yes, high altitude, but that counted for everyone, and Dutch athletes are actually less accustomed to it. Some skaters can from terrible injuries. What comes with injuries? We'll-informed sports docs. People who read the journals. What was a prime use for EPO early on, and still? Recovery.
Remember that skater who came from almost forced retirement to 3 golds in Calgary against a large squad of otherwise invincible Eastern-Germans?
Dutch TV not long ago aired a very distasteful documentary where the German ladies were interviewed and portraited to be dopers, and our Dutch angel (yes, I was in love with her as well) as the pinnacle of honest work and cleanliness. Same Dutch TV is now looking for witnesses of Ben Johnson's 9.79. As it was so special that someone had the guts to dope at the Olympics.
I'm Dutch, but afraid that we were among the first to figure out some of the many uses of EPO for sports.

Apart from that, anyone doing blood transfusion would be all over EPO like a fly on fresh doo.

 

[ChrisE]

I have no problem with people bringing him up here. But I’m still waiting for someone to provide evidence that Greg used EPO, or much of anything else, for that matter. There is no Lemond equivalent of the ’99 samples.

So, you didn't think LA doped until the 99 samples came to light? I doubt that.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So, 2 new first timer posters -"gregga" and "fearless greg lemond" show up bumping this long dormant thread. Talking about EPO stealing podiums.
Talking to eachother about it.

Oh my god, two new members wondering about the first years of EPO, shame on us. I did't even notice the member name was 'gregga' by the way, nice coincidence or are Lemondissima all still wondering why?

And yes, I was/am a Greg Lemond supporter, from the Worlds in 1982 untill the end of his carreer. Am I entitled to do so? I think I am, thank you. If he wouldn't have been shot, wouldn't have been held back in 1985 we never would have been talking about mr Armstrong. In my opinion Lemond was the most complete rider I have ever seen, doing Roubaix, Liege, San Remo, Lombardia etc etc. Never seen Indurain/Armstrong/Contador there, did u?

Note, I wanted to register unter the name of an Italian rider but that name didn't come through the 'ballot commitee'.

I think we can expect more of this. Lemond Interns flooding the clinic sigh.
Protecting the myth. The myth that Greg's lack of TdF victories post 1991 was because of dopers and not his own obvious lack of form. Stupid Myth.

I also hope a lot of Lemonds' 'fans' or otherwise interested people will come to discuss the start of the EPO - era and why suddenly some of the 'eighties riders' were dropped like amateurs. If u think it's a myth, so be it. I am convinced it is not a myth.

I've taken a good look at the race statistics for the Tour from 1989 till say 1992 and you don't need a PHD in math to see there are quit a lot of incredible boosts in performance, where as other riders competed at the same speed.

I remember back then. Greg trying to understand the reasons for his slipping form. Becoming slower. Lessening motivation. Taco Bell commercials and big business deals. Thinking it was health issues from his hunting accident etc. Back then, I did not view those as "excuses" - I saw them as "reasons".

Lemond wasnt going slower, that is just the main point.

But after he threw Lance under the bus his reasons changed. He now lost those Tours because of dopers - dopers like Lance. THAT opened up my eyes to the myth. They were not reasons after all - they were EXCUSES. It was not health issues after all - it was the dopers.

Lance under the bus? U mean the guy who couldn't climb but rode like a demon up on Sestriere. The man who tried to humiliate Pantani at the Ventoux in 2000?

When Lemond heard of him working with Ferrari he dragged him through the mud, as everyone should have done in that day - hell, he even got away with a positive for his socalled 'saddle sore' - , the media as well. But no, almost no one dare to touch the cancer - survivor. You should be thankfull to Lemond for opening up.

And, don't forget, maybe Lemond is also still somehow a little pis sed off for the death of his former teammate who suddenly died of a heartattack when he joined the Italians at Jolly.

That burst my bubble. Do not like people making excuses and do not like people throwing others under busses. Thowing people under busses after they become more famous than you. Yes, I am a Greg "not-liker". Big deal.

You're entitled to not like someone, if it is interesting? I think not.

And by the way, this thread is about the first EPO users the peloton. Greg's era. Greg is an important part of this discussion. What is this "Greg Card" you speak of. Is "Greg Card" just like "SSDD"? I think it is.

Many would argue that greed and big money rock star pro cycling contracts were a main part of increased usage of EPO. And Big Time Omerta at the beginning of the EPO era. Big Time Omerta.

Yes, the "Greg Card" is appropriate in this thread. Very appropriate.

I agree.

So when I said I was a "Greg disliker" I was wrong oops. I do not know Greg personally - but I bet I would like HIM. It was/is some of his behaviors and actions and the timing I did not like. And like I said big deal. Whoopie-do.

Quite a strange turnaround I must say. But ur entitled to be.

Drug Use Said to Concern LeMond Attorney Claims Dutch Team Wanted Cyclist to Try Testosterone

Very interesting.

Also very interesting on the PDM team; Pedro Delgado. Won the Vuelta in 1985 with Euf Fuentes as team doctor, had a real bad first year at PDM at 1986 and drove his balls of in 1987 to be only beaten by Carrera's [Conconi's favourite team] Roche, who never got to that level again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QO9CfgoZ5c
Now that's a comeback Stephen! A minute down but suddenly on Delgado's tail?

In 1988, back in the Spanish team, there was no stopping Perico, not even a positive dopingtest...
I must say, in 88 there was no Lemond, no Fignon, no Roche, but he was really good.

Furthermore, I agree with Polish Lemond should have spoken out during his carreer, but, he stated for numerous occassions the peloton were riding much harder. A good listener should know enough when something like that is stated by one of the best riders in history in my opinion.

Johanes Drajer of PDM died in Autumn 1990 of heart attack caused by EPO abuse. There are no elite pro cyclist deaths before that. EPO hit the peloton in 1990 to 1991.

Never proven, but, where there is a lot of smoke there must be some fire.

Danny Nelissen had to quite for a a bad heart.
Rudi Dhaenens - whatch his 1990 year!!! - the same.

Both PDM.

Also very notable; I found it very strange when guys like Rooks and Theunisse - the so called dream team of Dutch cycling in those days - couldn't perform once the were at Panasonic in 1990. In my opinion a good indicator for the less dirtyness of the Panasonic - Peter Post team or did the rest of the peloton now have the same drugs? This because Eddy Planckaert admitted doing the extra red blood cells at the end of his carreer, he won Roubaix in 1990 at Panasonic.

Also in 1990, RAUL ALCALA - of course at PDM -, won the first time trial in the Tour, thats a nice result for the little Mexican CLIMBER:
http://www.lagrandeboucle.com/article.php3?id_article=501
Gaining two minutes on Lemond, thats quite a lot don't we think. Even Breukink wasn't in the top ten.

So many suspicious things, but we're still omerted. Last week I heard an interesting quote by a well known Belgian Cycling commentator who stated Lemond was/could well be the last clean winner of the Tour, in 1986 that is. Smoke, smoke, fire, but, proof of EPO? No.

I would also like to add that considering that the OP was a European based Pro in 1989, one would think he would have a better idea of when EPO hit the peloton than any of us. Clearly he didnt seem to hear of it during 89 so obvioulsy it was used only by the very rare rider if at all in 89.

Good point, but is the OP the real deal or just a nickname on an internetforum?If I'm mistaken, my apologies.

Remember that skater who came from almost forced retirement to 3 golds in Calgary against a large squad of otherwise invincible Eastern-Germans?

That misses was quite good those weeks yes, never again produced the goods after. But, she was the only one really outperforming there.

Peter Winnen wrote a few years back about EPO:
'When the EPO came I didn't have any chance, I got beaten by the every redneck [couldn't find a translation for the Dutch word 'boerenlul' ].'
http://retro.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Tour99/interview.html

Now, as we go back to Winnen's palmares, we see a sudden drop in performance right around 1989 - 1990...
I remember the last years of Winnen's carreer I always made a mockery out of Winnen, as did the press, he was even chosen the least attacking rider of the peloton. Now we know why. The man who attacked and won the Dutch Alp twice was ridiculed by everyone because he didn't dope himself with EPO, how about that?

Maybe Lemond and Winnen are right? I tend to think so.

 

[Race Radio]

Johanes Drajer of PDM died in Autumn 1990 of heart attack caused by EPO abuse. There are no elite pro cyclist deaths before that. EPO hit the peloton in 1990 to 1991.

This is correct. Drajer death triggered an investigation

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-02/sports/sp-143_1_performance-enhancing-drug

Rob J. Pluijmers, a sportsmedicine doctor involved with Dutch cyclists for 15 years, admitted last week in Salt Lake City that he knows three professionals taking EPO, .........the first official acknowledgement that athletes are using the drug.

Pluijmers, however, denied that any of the 15 deaths could be attributed to erythropoietin........."There is no reason to think EPO use is involved,

In 1990

EPO is not yet registered in the Netherlands

Draaijer had traces of an echo in his heart two weeks before his death.

Dr. Bengt Saltin of the University of Copenhagen said Danish cyclists have similar backgrounds to those in the Netherlands.

"Yet, as far as I know, we have had one death over the years,"

"I would suggest something is going on, but I wouldn't think EPO is necessarily the factor,"

 

[Race Radio]

Andy Hampsten points to the early 90's

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/andy-hampsten-interview

Could you tell when people started using EPO?

Hampsten: Yeah

in the early 90's when EPO showed up

it was an open secret from the early 90's on

I saw EPO and other drugs fundamentally change my ability to perform in the sport

It was unhealthy I think, to even try to keep up with the pack in some of these early season races. The pack would just go so frickin' fast over climbs with guys like sprinters outclimbing stage racers who weren't at their peak form. It went from kinda embarrassing for a climber to "Man, I'm pushing myself so hard in February and March that I'm overtrained to try to keep up in races.

Fignon, LeMond, Hampsten, Rooks, all point to the early 90's.

 

[ChrisE]

Oh my god, two new members wondering about the first years of EPO, shame on us. I did't even notice the member name was 'gregga' by the way, nice coincidence or are Lemondissima all still wondering why?
.

The problem is wondering about when EPO came on, and then overlapping that time with when GL was winning the tour. But then you are a big GL supporter, so that wads the panties of the binary clinic crowd when you wonder about such things; they are forever on guard to flick dirt specks off of the white suit of GL. You should not wonder about these things if you are a GL fan...EPO came on when he started losing tours. No, not 1987 as blutto linked to in response to RR. the effects started on the slopes of val laron in 1991. This just goes to show how much better Hampsten was since he won AdH in 92 in the heat after 150 miles to Sestriere the day before, and finished 4th in that EPO laden tour.

The funny thing is that GL at the time said his loss of form was due to some blood illness. Funny that Fignon, AH, etc. knew at the time it was because of EPO, but not GL. Also you bring up Sestriere, Pantani, etc. inre to LA......I am sure you are aware that GL was buddies with LA up until conincidentally when LA tied his TdF record, which is after those instances you listed. Also, coincidentally, in July 2001 is when GL discovered LA's physiological numbers, that were known for some time, were not worthy of a GT winner. Yes, coincidences abound in that strange month of July 2001.

Now, we learn it was not a blood illness that caused GL's demise...it was EPO. They really should perfect those tests for those types of things...they appear to be no better than the OOC testing routines in the 80's.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The problem is wondering about when EPO came on, and then overlapping that time with when GL was winning the tour. But then you are a big GL supporter, so that wads the panties of the binary clinic crowd when you wonder about such things; they are forever on guard to flick dirt specks off of the white suit of GL. You should not wonder about these things if you are a GL fan...EPO came on when he started losing tours. No, not 1987 as blutto linked to in response to RR. the effects started on the slopes of val laron in 1991. This just goes to show how much better Hampsten was since he won AdH in 92 in the heat after 150 miles to Sestriere the day before, and finished 4th in that EPO laden tour.

No, its only a "problem" for those trying to accuse LeMond of using EPO in 1989.
For anyone else, like myself who has a general interest in this subject it is not a problem.

FWIW, I think EPO was definitely introduced in 89 (and perhaps 88).

The funny thing is that GL at the time said his loss of form was due to some blood illness. Funny that Fignon, AH, etc. knew at the time it was because of EPO, but not GL. Also you bring up Sestriere, Pantani, etc. inre to LA......I am sure you are aware that GL was buddies with LA up until conincidentally when LA tied his TdF record, which is after those instances you listed. Also, coincidentally, in July 2001 is when GL discovered LA's physiological numbers, that were known for some time, were not worthy of a GT winner. Yes, coincidences abound in that strange month of July 2001.

Only "funny" thing there is your reading comprehension.
The Hampsten interview is from 2009 and Fignons book was around the same time, like LeMond they talk about the introduction of EPO with the benefit of hindsight.

Now, we learn it was not a blood illness that caused GL's demise...it was EPO. They really should perfect those tests for those types of things...they appear to be no better than the OOC testing routines in the 80's.

Yes, the tests in the early 90s were as good as, am well the tests in the early 90's.

 

[Cloxxki]

ChrisE,
If indeed GL was clean (of EPO) and his contemporaries consider him to have been such, this will undoubtedly instill great respect for him as an athlete and natural talent. I'd feel pretty bad winning on the big stage using EPO and then later realize that the guy you nudges off the win was in fact doing without the huge boost you knew EPO brings. Actually, it would be hard to live with myself. If the champ in question is a PITB, that might relieve some of my guilt. And yeah, GL is a bit of that sometimes. As am I, and many among us here.

 

[Digger]

The problem is wondering about when EPO came on, and then overlapping that time with when GL was winning the tour. But then you are a big GL supporter, so that wads the panties of the binary clinic crowd when you wonder about such things; they are forever on guard to flick dirt specks off of the white suit of GL. You should not wonder about these things if you are a GL fan...EPO came on when he started losing tours. No, not 1987 as blutto linked to in response to RR. the effects started on the slopes of val laron in 1991. This just goes to show how much better Hampsten was since he won AdH in 92 in the heat after 150 miles to Sestriere the day before, and finished 4th in that EPO laden tour.

The funny thing is that GL at the time said his loss of form was due to some blood illness. Funny that Fignon, AH, etc. knew at the time it was because of EPO, but not GL. Also you bring up Sestriere, Pantani, etc. inre to LA......I am sure you are aware that GL was buddies with LA up until conincidentally when LA tied his TdF record, which is after those instances you listed. Also, coincidentally, in July 2001 is when GL discovered LA's physiological numbers, that were known for some time, were not worthy of a GT winner. Yes, coincidences abound in that strange month of July 2001.

Now, we learn it was not a blood illness that caused GL's demise...it was EPO. They really should perfect those tests for those types of things...they appear to be no better than the OOC testing routines in the 80's.

He was almost retired before he figured it out...is that all you have?

 

[ChrisE]

He was almost retired before he figured it out...is that all you have?

Here is a quote from your very post upthread:

Fignon in his book admits doping...HOWEVER again he says it was really only 91/92 that things went mental. The speeds were beyond belief. He didn't know what was going on until some people 'advised' him to get on it.

Are we quibbling over which months Fignon's enlightenment took place in 91 or 92? Whatever month in those years you want to choose that will give you the most leverage here in this discussion is alright with me.

That is because it is irrelevant. I said that others knew about EPO and GL claimed at the time he was sucking due to the blood illness. Don't try to read into this more than there is.

While your at it, why don't you describe how AH did so well in 92 in the midst of all this warp speed in the peleton. Thanks.

Moving on, Fignon in his book admits doping alright. Delgado got out of getting popped for a masking agent. Pretty interesting all these dopers getting spanked by GL. Just another observation.

BTW, last time you and I discussed this I got banned. Please don't make me ban myself again.

 

[Digger]

Here is a quote from your very post upthread:



Are we quibbling over which months Fignon's enlightenment took place in 91 or 92? Whatever month in those years you want to choose that will give you the most leverage here in this discussion is alright with me.

That is because it is irrelevant. I said that others knew about EPO and GL claimed at the time he was sucking due to the blood illness. Don't try to read into this more than there is.

While your at it, why don't you describe how AH did so well in 92 in the midst of all this warp speed in the peleton. Thanks.

Moving on, Fignon in his book admits doping alright. Delgado got out of getting popped for a masking agent. Pretty interesting all these dopers getting spanked by GL. Just another observation.

BTW, last time you and I discussed this I got banned. Please don't make me ban myself again.

Listen man if you have anger issues that's your problem.

Willy Voet says the 80s drugs enabled a rider to ride to his ability. EPO allowed an average rider to ride like a champion. One day race a rider can beat a guy on EPO. Over three weeks with HCT naturally dropping, it's almost impossible for an EPO rider not to beat a clean rider, AT THAT LEVEL.

The crux of the argument is when EPO cam on the scene. Kimmage stopped in '89. No way whatsoever did he know about EPO in '89.
If you weren't on an Italian team, you were behind the times.

 

[ChrisE]

Listen man if you have anger issues that's your problem.

Willy Voet says the 80s drugs enabled a rider to ride to his ability. EPO allowed an average rider to ride like a champion. One day race a rider can beat a guy on EPO. Over three weeks with HCT naturally dropping, it's almost impossible for an EPO rider not to beat a clean rider, AT THAT LEVEL.

The crux of the argument is when EPO cam on the scene. Kimmage stopped in '89. No way whatsoever did he know about EPO in '89.
If you weren't on an Italian team, you were behind the times.

WTF are you talking about? I only have said that GL claimed he didn't know about it while his contemporaries did. I quoted your very own post that said Fignon knew in 91/92. That is when GL started losing. That is all I have written.

So why are you going off on this tangent about Kimmage, Voet, 1989, etc? That has nothing to do with my post. If you want to talk about that then you should work on flowing the conversation to that direction. The way you have jammed it into this discussion in not very sensitive, you know? Foreplay should not be underestimated.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The problem is wondering about when EPO came on, and then overlapping that time with when GL was winning the tour. But then you are a big GL supporter, so that wads the panties of the binary clinic crowd when you wonder about such things; they are forever on guard to flick dirt specks off of the white suit of GL. You should not wonder about these things if you are a GL fan...EPO came on when he started losing tours. No, not 1987 as blutto linked to in response to RR. the effects started on the slopes of val laron in 1991. This just goes to show how much better Hampsten was since he won AdH in 92 in the heat after 150 miles to Sestriere the day before, and finished 4th in that EPO laden tour.

The funny thing is that GL at the time said his loss of form was due to some blood illness. Funny that Fignon, AH, etc. knew at the time it was because of EPO, but not GL. Also you bring up Sestriere, Pantani, etc. inre to LA......I am sure you are aware that GL was buddies with LA up until conincidentally when LA tied his TdF record, which is after those instances you listed. Also, coincidentally, in July 2001 is when GL discovered LA's physiological numbers, that were known for some time, were not worthy of a GT winner. Yes, coincidences abound in that strange month of July 2001.

Now, we learn it was not a blood illness that caused GL's demise...it was EPO. They really should perfect those tests for those types of things...they appear to be no better than the OOC testing routines in the 80's.

I now see u don't have any interest in the purpose of this thread, you only want to show of ur **** on how huge ur debat skills are. I got news for u, I am not interested in debating someone who presumably wasnt even around to even see guys like Hampsten and Lemond so u better stop acting like. Maybe u should have searched a little better on the internet, then u would have known Hampsten won on alpe d'Huez in a breakaway. Troll.

Did u even ever saw Lemond riding or did u learn through big Lance there was another American rider who won the Tour?

Just watch the statistics from the 1989 till say 1992 Tours, u will see some quite astonishing improvements where as some other riders stood still in their development. Maybe it had something to do with guys like Padilla, Conconi, Ferrari, Grazzi, Casoni. I just wonder. Trolls like u state for the fun of trolling it was all due to Lemonds' Taco Bell intrests, I beg to differ. If one has gone even through kindergarten and look at the numbers they can see there was something going on. U couldn't, since u presumably weren't even around.

edit: hell, even nobodies like friggin Melchor Mauri could win a GT in those days, lol. Keep up the good works matey.