First EPO users in the peloton?

[pmcg76]

Although I am not sure he would have been as good as he was without the juice, I really do still like Bartoli. One of the most elegant riders ever to sit on a bike. Poetry in motion. I can forgive a lot more when a rider sits on his bike like Bartoli.

Regards
GJ

PS I see Breukink mentioned time and again as a rider who benefitted from EPO to get an otherwise mediocre career going. I think that is wholly incomplete as Breukink was a quite good GT contender in his won right in the late 80's in his Panansonic-days. More remarkable is that his career wasn't really revived when joined a notorious team like Once, indicating he might not be the heavy juicer he is made out to be.

I dont see how someone who could podium a GT at 22/23 could be considered a poor rider.

Breukink was a top, top rider for the GTs but always seemed to suffer one off-day where he lost buckets of time. Even in 1990 he lost a lot of time in one stage but still managed to hold on for 3rd. We never got to see how he got on in 91 but he never came near that level thereafter.

 

[Caruut]

I've been watching the old wcp tours on YouTube. In the 1993 edition they do a feature on tony and his doctor Ferarri! They are film at the table together. They give Ferarri credit for curing Tony's allergies.

You couldn't make it up - got a link?

 

[slowspoke]

You couldn't make it up - got a link?

I'm at work and couldn't fid it easily, its chichasmith uploads. If you're a fan of the old TDF its pretty cool. All the 30 min specials of each stage.

scratch that found it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zjjFHRnHg

starts @ 6.05.

Comedy Gold!

 

[Caruut]

The name rings a bell, I think I was watching their footage of Pantani a few days ago while I was meant to be studying. Love the round-up of just exactly how far down the GC all the Aussies are at the end of each stage.

EDIT: Love it!

"[Rominger's] summer performances until recently have always been hampered by chronic hayfever."

"Spring training in the Colorado mountains and the attentions of Dr. Michele Ferrari have seen to that."

As to what the treatment Ferrari actually provided however, it's a little vaguer

"Sometimes when you are getting older, it passes"

As you say, comedy gold. Michele Ferrari has cured his hayfever, turning him into a climber, by telling him "it might just go away by himself".

 

[slowspoke]

The name rings a bell, I think I was watching their footage of Pantani a few days ago while I was meant to be studying. Love the round-up of just exactly how far down the GC all the Aussies are at the end of each stage.

EDIT: Love it!

"[Rominger's] summer performances until recently have always been hampered by chronic hayfever."

"Spring training in the Colorado mountains and the attentions of Dr. Michele Ferrari have seen to that."

As to what the treatment Ferrari actually provided however, it's a little vaguer

"Sometimes when you are getting older, it passes"

As you say, comedy gold. Michele Ferrari has cured his hayfever, turning him into a climber, by telling him "it might just go away by himself".

The mans a genius!
Also in the series is a great interview with Chiappucci, where he explains his bad performances are down to the other cyclists getting faster, not him getting slower.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I have that issue of Cycle Sport, the articles in question are nowhere near as insightful as one would wish but remember this was pre Festina so the lid was still firmly on. However it was around 1996 when journalists really started to question the effects of EPO.

Any chance u could scan the article? I am more interested in the 'who is who' side of the article.

Brief summary would be great too.

We have already had a full discussion on Rominger.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=13956

Thanks.

I posted in this one a few times and highlighted the fact that Rominger did have talent pre EPO but he still was a major benefactor of EPO, he just wasnt a donkey like Chiappucci or Riis and had shown more in GTs than Lance ever had before he started performing at that level.

Off course no donkey like those two, in my opinion those two are the absolute clowns of the nineties peloton.

But, given the so called 'hay fever' of Rominger and his working with Ferrari he could well have been a guinea pig for later rides like the 1990 Giro of Bugno. Both at Stanga off course.

Also his late switch to pro - cycling amazes me. In my opinion riders who are good are good when they are young, when a rider is becoming good at the age of say 27-28 I seriously raise my eyebrows. He didn't have a contract in 1987 but the Italians gave him a chance?

Nice article:
http://www.zeit.de/2005/27/Tour_27

''Romingers Hämatokritpegel weist laut den Unterlagen von 1989 bis 1996 regelmäßig Sch****ungen von bis zu zwölf Prozent innerhalb weniger Monate auf. Der erste Wert liegt am 21. Oktober 1989 auf dem Level eines jungen, gesunden, im Ausdauersport trainierten Mannes, auf 38,8. Dem Dopingjäger zufolge war das Tony Romingers normales Hämatokritlevel. Die Werte steigen vor und während Wettkampfphasen auf 48,2. Auf 50. 52. 55,5. Klettern auf bis zu 56,5 gegen Ende seiner Karriere. Sinken in nicht wettkampfrelevanten Phasen, etwa auf 39,0 am 27. Februar 1992. Aus Sicht vieler Ärzte gibt es für so hohe Sch****ungen keine natürliche Erklärung. Stattdessen gibt es Korrelationen hoher Werte mit wichtigen Rennphasen und Notizen über teilweise unglaubliche Mengen von Eisenbeigaben.''

So Rominger's natural hematocrit was about 39, that is not quite what you would expect for a worldclass rider.

Breukink was no EPO donkey, he was a major talent as stated here above. If PDM hadn't screwed up their EPO, oeps intrapelid, he even might have won the 1991 Tour de France.

 

[pmcg76]

Ok, I dug the issue out(well took it of my bookshelf) and read through the article. This is a short summary.

The article primarily features an interview with Dr Luigi Cechini and Adrie Van Diemen. The bit with Cecchini was a rarity as he rarely or never gave interviews thereafter. It charts the rise of Italian cycling and the significant role played by the likes of Conconi, Ferrari and Cecchini in that rise. Cecchini gives details of his background and education, qualifications. Asked on his methods and whether there are any great secrets:

"Well, there arent any real secrets, everybody uses heart-rate monitors and various kinds of testing and analysis to monitor their riders. Its the way of training that is important, the quantity and the quality. These variables change between the riders. I personalise the training for each athlete depedning on their race programme and fitness. No two riders have the same needs" The article continues 'More than that he wasnt saying and a polite smile told us not to insist'.

The articles then continues on how much he charges(money) and he explains the different rates for riders depending on their success etc and how some riders give 3-5% of their winnings. Asked about his colleagus Conconi and Ferrari, he says Conconi is the president of Italian cycling doctors and is like the captain of the team.

'What about Ferrari, the man who said he could understand why professional athletes would use drugs to improve their perfromance if these drugs were not detectable. Does Cecchini agree with this attitude? "Yes in general terms I agree. In general terms Dr. Ferrari says some very intelligent things, hes also very realistic. Perhaps sometimes there there are things that everybody in the sport knows but nobody should say. However Dr.Ferrari has the courage to say them".

He continues to explain how Italian athletes from junior level up are looked after and better prepared than there counterparts in other countries.

The article continues, summarizing the work of Conconi in introducing the test for anaerobic ability and his work in preparing Moser for his world hour attempt in the 80s and how Italian cycling has become more scientific. It then moves on to talking about the set-up of the Mapei training centre under the watchful eye of Aldo Sassi who is described as Moser's personal trainer during his hour record attempts. Girogio Squinzi wants all Mapei riders working under Sassi but the article highlighs how many Mapei athletes like Rominger and Olano are working with Ferrari and whether this questions their future with the Mapei team. Both left for the 97 season.

It then moves on to how French cycling was slow to catch on to the personal coach/doctor and how Greg LeMond was ahead of his peers in using SRM Powercranks and having a personal coach(Van Diemen). It explains how GAN had finally hired a coach(Francois Van Londersele) and the fact that they seen the benefit of Chris Boardman having his own coach. Van Lonsdersele started working with GAN in 94 and explained how many older riders were resistant to his ideas and how behind French cycling was in regards to modern methods of training etc and how it was only changing slowly. That finish the main article.

There is a seperate piece within the article concerning Adrie Van Diemen who is a qulified exercise physiologist as opposed to a medical doctor. He spoke of his admiration for the professional approach of the Italians and how he was aiming to minic their success but describes going to Italy in the winter of 95 to learn things and saying "As soon as the various doctors I was speaking with realised I was a phyiologist they shut up shop and wouldnt really tell me anything beyond basic work physiology, really basic stuff. I guess everyone has an interest in keeping their secrets locked up"

Clearly there is a hint that Van Diemen feels that the same rules are not being adhered to by all. What are his feelings about the preparation/doping crossover? "My first concern is always for the well being and health of my riders, and as far as doping is concerned I always work within the UCI and IOC guidelines"

There is also a very short piece on Dr Peter Keen who was Boardmans coach but this is nothing more than a reference to the fact that Sports doctors were also coming into fashion in the UK.

Finally there is a table of doctors and their riders though this is clealry nowhere near complete, for example Cecchini also looked after Bjarne Riis and Max Sciandri and most of the former MG team.

Doctors and riders:
Ferrari: Rominger, Furlan, Bortolami, Olano, Cipollini, Escartin
Cecchini: Bugno, Bartoli, Cassani, Casagrande, Piepoli, Baldato, Tchmile
Giovanni Grazzi: former Carrera doctor and currwnt doctor to Roslotto team including Ugrumov, Fondriest
Max Testa: the Motorola coach
Yvan Van Mol: Museeuw and Vandenbroucke
Gianni Manzoni: Gewiss
Adrie Van Diemen: Breukink, Danny Nelissen and Rabobank Espoirs
Sabino Padilla: Indurain
Nicolas Torradas: ONCE

In summary, perahps the piece was more interesting that I remembered and it is clear there is quite a few allusions to doping but it is clearly a pre Festina interview. For example EPO is not mentioned once even though by 96, it was widely believed to be the drug of choice.

 

[GJB123]

I dont see how someone who could podium a GT at 22/23 could be considered a poor rider.

Breukink was a top, top rider for the GTs but always seemed to suffer one off-day where he lost buckets of time. Even in 1990 he lost a lot of time in one stage but still managed to hold on for 3rd. We never got to see how he got on in 91 but he never came near that level thereafter.

Exactly my point and yet some people up here keep on putting his name in the list of riders that benefitted most from the arrival of EPO. That is unfounded and incorrect imho.

Regards
GJ

PS and as for Riis. I think that although he never was and never should have been a GT contender, he was no donkey either before the EPO-says. He was a quite valuable mountain domestique who could on a good day definitely win a mountain stage on merit. As for poor old Claudio, he was nowhere before EPO and was nowhere again when all others caught on. That alone should tell you something about the difference between Riis and Chiapucci.

 

[pmcg76]

Exactly my point and yet some people up here keep on putting his name in the list of riders that benefitted most from the arrival of EPO. That is unfounded and incorrect imho.

Regards
GJ

PS and as for Riis. I think that although he never was and never should have been a GT contender, he was no donkey either before the EPO-says. He was a quite valuable mountain domestique who could on a good day definitely win a mountain stage on merit. As for poor old Claudio, he was nowhere before EPO and was nowhere again when all others caught on. That alone should tell you something about the difference between Riis and Chiapucci.

I wouldnt really say that Riis was less of a donkey than Chiappucci pre EPO, look at Chiappucci's results in 89 and you will see he has some good performances unless you believe he was on EPO in 89 also. Apart froma stage win at Giro in 89, Riis didnt have any results of note.

 

[spalco]

Doctors and riders:
Ferrari: Rominger, Furlan, Bortolami, Olano, Cipollini, Escartin
Cecchini: Bugno, Bartoli, Cassani, Casagrande, Piepoli, Baldato, Tchmile
Giovanni Grazzi: former Carrera doctor and currwnt doctor to Roslotto team including Ugrumov, Fondriest
Max Testa: the Motorola coach
Yvan Van Mol: Museeuw and Vandenbroucke
Gianni Manzoni: Gewiss
Adrie Van Diemen: Breukink, Danny Nelissen and Rabobank Espoirs
Sabino Padilla: Indurain
Nicolas Torradas: ONCE

Any of those still active and in good standing in cycling (meaning riders aren't ashamed of being associated with them)?

 

[Dave_1]

Exactly my point and yet some people up here keep on putting his name in the list of riders that benefitted most from the arrival of EPO. That is unfounded and incorrect imho.

Regards
GJ

PS and as for Riis. I think that although he never was and never should have been a GT contender, he was no donkey either before the EPO-says. He was a quite valuable mountain domestique who could on a good day definitely win a mountain stage on merit. As for poor old Claudio, he was nowhere before EPO and was nowhere again when all others caught on. That alone should tell you something about the difference between Riis and Chiapucci.

Breukink got 3rd at the 1987 Giro. EPO wasn't for sale or in mass production in 1987. The results for the first clinical trials of EPO were published in January 1987 so I believe Breukink was simply a damn good bike rider.

EPO was in use by 1989 in my opnion as Johanes Drajer did pretty decent in TDF 1989 I think and died 8 months after...his death suggests even 1990 was the start of the EPO generation in pro cycling, not 1989 and certainly not 1987 in cycling.

 

[pmcg76]

Any of those still active and in good standing in cycling (meaning riders aren't ashamed of being associated with them)?

I think Max Testa(with SKY possibly??? not sure) is still working in pro cycling but then he never had a dodgy rep. There had to be some reason why Armstrong felt the need to use Ferrari in 96 instead of the Motorola team doctor.

Van Diemen is still working with a few riders but then his reputation was never sullied either and as the article highlighted, he was more of a trainer than a doctor.

Conconi, Ferrari, Cecchini and Grazzi were pretty much blacklisted despite riders still working with them in secret. Just contrast what Van Diemen says in contrast to Cecchini and Ferrari. I think Van Mol has a dodgy rep and as for the others most are in the bad books, maybe not Padilla but I am not sure.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Max Testa is part of the BMC set-up.

 

[Wiesmier]

I think Max Testa(with SKY possibly??? not sure) is still working in pro cycling but then he never had a dodgy rep. There had to be some reason why Armstrong felt the need to use Ferrari in 96 instead of the Motorola team doctor.

Van Diemen is still working with a few riders but then his reputation was never sullied either and as the article highlighted, he was more of a trainer than a doctor.

Conconi, Ferrari, Cecchini and Grazzi were pretty much blacklisted despite riders still working with them in secret. Just contrast what Van Diemen says in contrast to Cecchini and Ferrari. I think Van Mol has a dodgy rep and as for the others most are in the bad books, maybe not Padilla but I am not sure.

http://www.maxtestatraining.com

BMC not Sky

 

[GJB123]

I wouldnt really say that Riis was less of a donkey than Chiappucci pre EPO, look at Chiappucci's results in 89 and you will see he has some good performances unless you believe he was on EPO in 89 also. Apart froma stage win at Giro in 89, Riis didnt have any results of note.

I did what you suggested and had a quick look at their results and you are completely righ, my apologies. I guess when you are over 40 as I am, your memory starts playing tricks on you. I distinctly remember Belgian commentators mentioning Riis as a valuable mountain domestique before I had ever heard of him. But there goes!

Regards
GJ

 

[pmcg76]

http://www.maxtestatraining.com

BMC not Sky

Ok, thanks, I knew he was with some team but wasnt sure which. I guess his long-term relationship with Ochowicz makes sense.

 

[hrotha]

As for poor old Claudio, he was nowhere before EPO and was nowhere again when all others caught on. That alone should tell you something about the difference between Riis and Chiapucci.

I'm not sure about that. While I agree he was probably one of the pioneers of scientific EPO use, I always thought he faded less than, say, Bugno, who had definitely more natural talent. For example, as late as 1995 he was 4th in the Giro, 4th in the RvV (!!!), 7th in LBL, 6th in Lombardy, 8th in MSR and 11th in the Tour. He was 32 at the time, and back then that was old. From 1996 onwards his decline was sharp though.

 

[Cloxxki]

If you have graduated medical doctors treating you on a daily basis, why would they wait for something like EPO to be available over the counter? I am not sure with any really powerful substance, that ever actually happened. BALCO, hemassist, these docs take pride in finding an edge, and doing so before their confreres. It raises their status to innovate rather than copy.
More interesting is who and when could first have gotten their hands on EPO, like it seems someone managed with HemAssist. In the beginning these ethically well endowed docs will have used careful dosages for their riders, the ballpark % gains were only known to them and the riders priviledges to be using it.

Breuking beat Indurain in ITT's that mattered and somehow stayed warm on a snowy ascend when all others frose in place. I am not ready to vouch for him, although I was a great little fan at the time. Early adopter, strong responder, or crazy talented - pick one or two.

 

[GJB123]

As discussed by others, I would say that based on circumstancial evidence, EPO is most likely to have been introduced around '89-'90. Naturally you cannot exclude that some of the riders were early to the party and experimented in years before that, but this seems less likely imho based on what we have seen in those years.

Regards
GJ

PS Breukink wasn't the only one surviving the Gavia in arctic conditions. If memory serves me well, Hampsten did quite well as well and it was Johan van der Velde who summitted first before having to come of his bike because of the cold weather (wearing short sleeves wasn't the wisest move).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ok, I dug the issue out(well took it of my bookshelf) and read through the article. This is a short summary.

Thanks a lot.

The articles then continues on how much he charges(money) and he explains the different rates for riders depending on their success etc and how some riders give 3-5% of their winnings. Asked about his colleagus Conconi and Ferrari, he says Conconi is the president of Italian cycling doctors and is like the captain of the team.

This in intriguing. So the man is in fact a cycling agent/manager taking 5% of the riders price money.

'What about Ferrari, the man who said he could understand why professional athletes would use drugs to improve their perfromance if these drugs were not detectable. Does Cecchini agree with this attitude? "Yes in general terms I agree. In general terms Dr. Ferrari says some very intelligent things, hes also very realistic. Perhaps sometimes there there are things that everybody in the sport knows but nobody should say. However Dr.Ferrari has the courage to say them".

In other words Ferrari broke the Omerta in 1994 and should be heralded for it?

The article continues, summarizing the work of Conconi in introducing the test for anaerobic ability and his work in preparing Moser for his world hour attempt in the 80s and how Italian cycling has become more scientific. It then moves on to talking about the set-up of the Mapei training centre under the watchful eye of Aldo Sassi who is described as Moser's personal trainer during his hour record attempts. Girogio Squinzi wants all Mapei riders working under Sassi but the article highlighs how many Mapei athletes like Rominger and Olano are working with Ferrari and whether this questions their future with the Mapei team. Both left for the 97 season.

Interesting. So Squinzi, the so called anti - dope man of Mapei, wanted the Ferrara boys out in favour of Aldo Sassi? Note, this man:

Basso also used to work with Cecchini strangely enough.

There is a seperate piece within the article concerning Adrie Van Diemen who is a qulified exercise physiologist as opposed to a medical doctor. He spoke of his admiration for the professional approach of the Italians and how he was aiming to minic their success but describes going to Italy in the winter of 95 to learn things and saying "As soon as the various doctors I was speaking with realised I was a phyiologist they shut up shop and wouldnt really tell me anything beyond basic work physiology, really basic stuff. I guess everyone has an interest in keeping their secrets locked up".

Amazing, so in 1995 not all the secrets were out of the box.
Here an interesting read about van Diemen and Lemond, it is in Dutch but Google translate will help, I hope. It says Lemond got lead poisoning in 1994 at high sportive efforts and lost 33% of his VO2max.
http://www.sportkroniek.nl/portret/portret/LeMond.html

In summary, perahps the piece was more interesting that I remembered and it is clear there is quite a few allusions to doping but it is clearly a pre Festina interview. For example EPO is not mentioned once even though by 96, it was widely believed to be the drug of choice.

I think if EPO was mentioned il dottore wouldn't have agreed to be interviewed in the first place.
In my opinion 1996 was the eye opener for the majority of the cycling audience. Seeing a 200 pounds Danish lumberjack sprinting to Hautacam; if you saw this you should know something was very fishy. Riiis was a client of dottore Cecchini so dottore cashed in nicely in 1996. Really incredible to read he took a percentage of the riders money, in case, Riis rode with a near fatal hematocrit of 64%, how can dottore still be named dottore? Didn't he take an oath or something?

PS and as for Riis. I think that although he never was and never should have been a GT contender, he was no donkey either before the EPO-says. He was a quite valuable mountain domestique who could on a good day definitely win a mountain stage on merit.

Here is donk Bjarnes palmares:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=4452

He took one, yes one, stage victory in a major race prior to his last year at Ariostea in 1993 when suddenly he was top ten in the Tour. Ariostea, u know, for 'champion maker' Ferretti

Riis was the biggest donkey ever seen on two wheels who risked his life for winning the Tour de France. He did and congrats to him.

I must say I like him as a teammanager but as I rider I have no respect for the guy.

If you have graduated medical doctors treating you on a daily basis, why would they wait for something like EPO to be available over the counter?

I agree untill the point where as you are manipulating hematocrit levels to 60% and above. Thats just almost lethal. When u use EPO as a way of recuperation for a rider who is near the exit of a GT and lift his hema level to say 40% I say go ahead.

But, when cycling doctors get paid an amount of his riders price money and pump his hematocrit to near lethal amounts you are no longer a doctor but merely a stockbroker playing with the lives of others. Guys like Cecchini should have been taken out of 'practice' long time ago. Just like those Russian idiots at Katusha who pumped Kirchen to a heartattack and had how many positives in the last years?

I'm not sure about that. While I agree he was probably one of the pioneers of scientific EPO use, I always thought he faded less than, say, Bugno, who had definitely more natural talent. For example, as late as 1995 he was 4th in the Giro, 4th in the RvV (!!!), 7th in LBL, 6th in Lombardy, 8th in MSR and 11th in the Tour. He was 32 at the time, and back then that was old. From 1996 onwards his decline was sharp though.

Good old Tony R. peaked after 32...

Maybe from 1996 onwards the other teams got better juice? Or maybe Bugno wasn't risking his life after seeing Riis banging up the hills at 64%?
At the end of 1996 Bugno was also one of the riders proclaiming a 50% hema level for everyone.

Donati [CONI] stated an Italian rider had a heartattack in the Giro of 1993 because of an EPO overdose, anyone got further info on that?

 

[GJB123]

Here is donk Bjarnes palmares:
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wielersite/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=4452

He took one, yes one, stage victory in a major race prior to his last year at Ariostea in 1993 when suddenly he was top ten in the Tour. Ariostea, u know, for 'champion maker' Ferretti

Riis was the biggest donkey ever seen on two wheels who risked his life for winning the Tour de France. He did and congrats to him.

I must say I like him as a teammanager but as I rider I have no respect for the guy.

When you quote me to show me I am wrong, you might, in the interest of fairness, also read and quote what I wrote after that particular post. It would have saved you the effort of trying to make me look silly. I am way ahead of you in the game of making myself look silly every now and then.

I did what you suggested and had a quick look at their results and you are completely righ, my apologies. I guess when you are over 40 as I am, your memory starts playing tricks on you. I distinctly remember Belgian commentators mentioning Riis as a valuable mountain domestique before I had ever heard of him. But there goes!

Regards
GJ

 

[Dr. Maserati]

As discussed by others, Iwould say that basedon circumstancial evidence, EPO is most likely to have been introduced around '89-'90. Naturally you cannoot exclude that some of the riders were early to the party and experimentd in years before that, but this seems less likely imho based on what we have seen in those years.

Regards
GJ

PS Breukink wasn't the only one surviving the Gavia in arctic conditions. If memory serves me well, Hampsten did quite well as well and it was Johan van der Velde who summitted first before having to come of his bike because of the cold weather (wearing short sleeves wasn't the wisest move).

I agree with your analysis but I would perhaps put it one year earlier - 88/89.

I look at Bugnos 90 season as EPO fueled - and that was done by training on EPO in the off season and arriving at a very high level and keeping topped up.

So, it is likely there was some experimentation in 89 - and of course the Italians had the data to test against already.
The reason I think it may have started in 88 is because of the rumor of many deaths in Holland & Belguim, however I have never been able to find a reliable source for those figures. Perhaps you (or otheres from Benelux) heard of something back then?

 

[pmcg76]

Paul Kimmage: A Rough Ride
Joe Parkin: A Dog in a hat
Willy Voet: Breaking the chain
Allan Peiper: A Peipers tale
Laurent Fignon: We were young and carefree
Jesper Skibby: Understand me correctly

All these guys who have published books were involved in the scene during the relevant period and talked about doping to varying degrees . However none of them have ever mentioned EPO earlier than 1990.

Peter Winnen is another rider from that era who admitted doping and again put the introduction of EPO around 1990.

Eddy Planckaert admitted to trying EPO in the final years of his career which was 1990/91.

Other riders like Per Pedersen and Soren Lilholt also admitted to doping but never to using EPO. Both finished their careers around 92/93.

In fact the only rider I can think of who dates EPO usage pre 1990 is Mathieu Hermans who said he used EPO in the 89 Tour de France.

Most of these guys rode for Belgian/Dutch/French teams. It would be interesting to hear what the story was in the Italian teams at the same time. Lots of their stories can be cross-referenced, for example Voet says Charly Mottet helped clean up the RMO team when he arrived in 89, the same RMO team that Kimmage had just left and in his book decribed the drug taking on the team. Pity he didnt get to see what influence Mottet had.

Peiper talks about a Dr Janssen at Panasonic who believed in hormonal equilbrium which fellow Panasonic rider Winnen admitted to doing, the same Dr Janssen who was also team doctor at PDM pre Win Sanders, the guy who bought EPO in the early 90s and was chief offender in the PDM trial.

Joe Parkin rode for Tulip in 90/91, the same team where Peiper and Lilholt finished their careers and where another admitted doper Brian Holm also rode.

I believe EPO was possibly experimented with pre 1990 but considering it took the likes of Ferrari, Conconi, Cecchini to figure out how to best utilise it, I find it hard to believe anyone taking it pre 1990 would have known how to utilise it effectively without using it over a sustained period of time or having a knowledgable qualified doctor to supervise. Even if it was being used pre 90 I doubt it was used correctly which is what may have caused the deaths mentioned but I dont think any of those deaths have ever been linked to EPO usage.

 

[hrotha]

Good old Tony R. peaked after 32...

Maybe from 1996 onwards the other teams got better juice? Or maybe Bugno wasn't risking his life after seeing Riis banging up the hills at 64%?
At the end of 1996 Bugno was also one of the riders proclaiming a 50% hema level for everyone.

Tony Rominger only turned pro at 25. Guys like him and Ugrumov were seen as oddities. Of course you could find people performing at +33, but it wasn't like nowadays, when people win the Tour at 33-34 and many riders remain competitive at 37-40.

As for Bugno, both theories are possible, but he didn't start declining in 1996. By 1994 he was a mere shadow of the GT rider he once was.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Paul Kimmage: A Rough Ride
Joe Parkin: A Dog in a hat
Willy Voet: Breaking the chain
Allan Peiper: A Peipers tale
Laurent Fignon: We were young and carefree
Jesper Skibby: Understand me correctly

All these guys who have published books were involved in the scene during the relevant period and talked about doping to varying degrees . However none of them have ever mentioned EPO earlier than 1990.

Peter Winnen is another rider from that era who admitted doping and again put the introduction of EPO around 1990.

Eddy Planckaert admitted to trying EPO in the final years of his career which was 1990/91.

Other riders like Per Pedersen and Soren Lilholt also admitted to doping but never to using EPO. Both finished their careers around 92/93.

In fact the only rider I can think of who dates EPO usage pre 1990 is Mathieu Hermans who said he used EPO in the 89 Tour de France.

Most of these guys rode for Belgian/Dutch/French teams. It would be interesting to hear what the story was in the Italian teams at the same time. Lots of their stories can be cross-referenced, for example Voet says Charly Mottet helped clean up the RMO team when he arrived in 89, the same RMO team that Kimmage had just left and in his book decribed the drug taking on the team. Pity he didnt get to see what influence Mottet had.

Peiper talks about a Dr Janssen at Panasonic who believed in hormonal equilbrium which fellow Panasonic rider Winnen admitted to doing, the same Dr Janssen who was also team doctor at PDM pre Win Sanders, the guy who bought EPO in the early 90s and was chief offender in the PDM trial.

Joe Parkin rode for Tulip in 90/91, the same team where Peiper and Lilholt finished their careers and where another admitted doper Brian Holm also rode.

I believe EPO was possibly experimented with pre 1990 but considering it took the likes of Ferrari, Conconi, Cecchini to figure out how to best utilise it, I find it hard to believe anyone taking it pre 1990 would have known how to utilise it effectively without using it over a sustained period of time or having a knowledgable qualified doctor to supervise. Even if it was being used pre 90 I doubt it was used correctly which is what may have caused the deaths mentioned but I dont think any of those deaths have ever been linked to EPO usage.

This.
As I said earlier Bugno 90 was one of the first big benefactors - so I would assume that some experimentation was done by the Italian Docs before it got rolled out fully. Which would mean 1989.

But I actually think the Belgians & Dutch may have gotten their hands on some before the Italians (it was distributed from just over the border in Germany)- but they did not know how to use it properly and went on the old adage "more is better" which may have had fatal consequences.