First EPO users in the peloton?

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

When you quote me to show me I am wrong, you might, in the interest of fairness, also read and quote what I wrote after that particular post. It would have saved you the effort of trying to make me look silly. I am way ahead of you in the game of making myself look silly every now and then.

Regards
GJ

No, that wasn't my intention and I don't think I did. Lets not misinterpret each other.

Riis/Ariostea/Gewiss always had my special interest, thats why I call him a donkey. Off course the guy could ride a bike, spike me up to 64% and I won't suddenly be a Tour contender, but somehow those early nineties bidon boys, you here call them domestiques I believe, who suddenly were the second comings of Herrera, Parra etc etc have my 'special attention'. I read a part of Rolf Jaermann's book where he stated in 1992 the team doctor - still looking for his name, sources are not reliable enough but everything points to Ferrari and Cecchini - of Arisostea introduced the team to EPO. Suddenly in 1993 Riis hits it of, as to speak big time. U are a bit right about Riis, he was a decent helper for Fignon but nothing more.

When u look at the statistics of Furlan, also at Ariostea, u also notice quite a leap in performances around that magic year 1992 fading into a total zero he used to be after lets say 1995.

The only steady rider at Ariostea/Gewiss was Moreno Argentin, but seen your age [we must be from around the same time ] I don't have to convince you he was a class act. He didn't need to show he was good on the EPo, he was also great without.

Again, apoligies for the misunderstanding. I am not here to be a wiseguy, I want as many info as I can on the EPO starting era.

The reason I think it may have started in 88 is because of the rumor of many deaths in Holland & Belguim, however I have never been able to find a reliable source for those figures. Perhaps you (or otheres from Benelux) heard of something back then?

Strange thing. We always read suspective deaths in Holland and Belgium around that time but further than the known names of Oosterbosch, Draaijer and the Dutch woman cyclist there is no info. I don't find that reliable as a source, but, when a lot of people in the science department all over the world come up with the same story there must be a fire somewire. Off course the doctors/professors have a code of silence regarding information about patients.

Maybe the old 'eighties' peloton riders expected this new wonderdrug as harmless as for instance amphetamines wich didn't do so much harm. Yes, u couldn't sleep somedays but else it was harmless. And, mind you, the biggest dopers are the ones who want to get into pro - cycling and will do anything to get a contract at the big league.

But, it is never proven Oosterbosch and Draaijer died op EPO use. That is a fact.

I believe EPO was possibly experimented with pre 1990 but considering it took the likes of Ferrari, Conconi, Cecchini to figure out how to best utilise it, I find it hard to believe anyone taking it pre 1990 would have known how to utilise it effectively without using it over a sustained period of time or having a knowledgable qualified doctor to supervise. Even if it was being used pre 90 I doubt it was used correctly which is what may have caused the deaths mentioned but I dont think any of those deaths have ever been linked to EPO usage.

I think you are right in the sense Conconi and his Ferrara team must have been involved. They were the blood boys who spiked athletes and cyclists in the eighties and nineties. Why go through all the difficulties of tapping blood when u can simply inject a fluid?

Don't forget the Spaniards, the also love blood...
In Spain Fuentes was also was working with athletes and cyclists, he was no fool either.

By 1994 he was a mere shadow of the GT rider he once was.

Maybe the rest of the peloton got more or less 'the same gears' by that time? When u saw Pantani on the Mortirolo, could a great Bugno do the same? Berzin, who was up to 58% blew up, Indurain the same. Bugno didn't even try, probably he knew he wasn't good enough or didn't want to risk his life pumping up to 64% like Riis.

But I actually think the Belgians & Dutch may have gotten their hands on some before the Italians (it was distributed from just over the border in Germany)- but they did not know how to use it properly and went on the old adage "more is better" which may have had fatal consequences.

And Switserland.

 

[hrotha]

Maybe the rest of the peloton got more or less 'the same gears' by that time? When u saw Pantani on the Mortirolo, could a great Bugno do the same? Berzin, who was up to 58% blew up, Indurain the same. Bugno didn't even try, probably he knew he wasn't good enough or didn't want to risk his life pumping up to 64% like Riis.And Switserland.

As I said, my theory is that Bugno was a pioneer of scientific EPO use in 1990 (as Dr Maserati said), then lost the edge as more people got on EPO by 1993 and 1994; those people wouldn't necessarily have been using heavier programs than him, at least for those years, 1993-1994. The alternative theory, that he simply didn't want to enter an arms race and thus fell behind, is entirely possible as well.

To clarify:
Theory A: pioneering scientific use of EPO > Bugno's dominance > EPO spread/arms race > Bugno fades > [optional] Bugno scales down the program

Theory B: pioneering scientific use of EPO > Bugno's dominance > EPO spead/arms race > Bugno scales down the program > Bugno fades

 

[MrRoboto]

Related to those dutch and belgian riders deaths, here is an a NYTimes article from 91 (sorry if its been posted before):
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?src=pm

But some athletes and trainers have found that the drug can enhance athletic performance by increasing red blood cells, and thus the body's ability to carry oxygen. Doctors and blood specialists say the drug may be implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers in the last four years. Drug Called a Factor

Not very specific, but it goes into a bit more detail:

"There is no absolute proof, but there's so much smoke that most of us are convinced," said Dr. Randy Eichner, chief of hematology at the University of Oklahoma. "You just don't get 18 deaths in 4 years, mysteriously, with 10 of them attributed to cardiac problems."

And (also interesting quote in bold):

Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood

Also interesting:

"I began hearing about EPO two to three years ago through the grapevine in running circles," said John Treacy, a silver medalist in the 1984 Olympic marathon. "The story was there was this new drug that would take over from blood doping, and that it was much better."

Dr. Adamson said the drug's potential for abuse was soon apparent because athletes were already known to be enhancing performance by having transfusions of extra blood, known as blood doping, or by training at high altitudes, which prompts the body to produce extra red blood cells.

 

[blutto]

As I said, my theory is that Bugno was a pioneer of scientific EPO use in 1990 (as Dr Maserati said), then lost the edge as more people got on EPO by 1993 and 1994; those people wouldn't necessarily have been using heavier programs than him, at least for those years, 1993-1994. The alternative theory, that he simply didn't want to enter an arms race and thus fell behind, is entirely possible as well.

To clarify:
Theory A: pioneering scientific use of EPO > Bugno's dominance > EPO spread/arms race > Bugno fades > [optional] Bugno scales down the program

Theory B: pioneering scientific use of EPO > Bugno's dominance > EPO spead/arms race > Bugno scales down the program > Bugno fades

...that is quite clever...would certainly help flush out the earliest adaptors...though from what we have seen here moving the start date for EPO use to 88 or 89 would probably be prudent...

Cheers

blutto

 

[GJB123]

Related to those dutch and belgian riders deaths, here is an a NYTimes article from 91 (sorry if its been posted before):
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?src=pm



Not very specific, but it goes into a bit more detail:



And (also interesting quote in bold):



Also interesting:

I am from the Netherlands and of the age that I would certainly remember such a large number of unexplained Dutch cyclists dying. The number seems far fetched to me and without further substantiation I basically wouldn't trust them.

Regards
GJ

 

[MrRoboto]

I am from the Netherlands and of the age that I would certainly remember such al large number of unexplained Dutch cyclists dying. The number seems far fetched to me and without further substantiation I basically wouldn't trust them.

Regards
GJ

Sure. But from what I've seen they seem very real. Race Radio posted this article from 1990 earlier in this thread:
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-02/sports/sp-143_1_performance-enhancing-drug

It says that there is started an investigation about these deaths. A Rob Pluijmers even breaks down the deaths (Saying he don't believe they were caused by EPO):

--Four ischemic cases, which are usually traced to coronary artery disease.

--Six post-viral cases in which a cold is suspected of causing cardiomyopathy.

--One Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome that was diagnosed earlier.

--One aorta outflow disturbance.

--One suicide.

--Two unknown.

Now, I don't know who this Rob Pluijmers is. Google gives me nothing but this article -- which says this:

Rob J. Pluijmers, a sportsmedicine doctor involved with Dutch cyclists for 15 years, admitted last week in Salt Lake City that he knows three professionals taking EPO, a recombinant hormone used to treat anemia. He refused to name the athletes, but this is the first official acknowledgement that athletes are using the drug.

Would have been interesting to hear the official conclusion of this investigation, even though it's probably "we don't know".

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am from the Netherlands and of the age that I would certainly remember such al large number of unexplained Dutch cyclists dying. The number seems far fetched to me and without further substantiation I basically wouldn't trust them.

Regards
GJ

Which is why I was looking for your input, thanks.

Ya, likewise I am dubious of the figures that get bandied about - however for consideration is a breakdown from this book, it lists:
Five Dutch riders died suddenly in 1987, followed by a Belgian and 2 Dutch riders in 1988 and 5 more Dutch cyclists in 1989.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

...that is quite clever...would certainly help flush out the earliest adaptors...though from what we have seen here moving the start date for EPO use to 88 or 89 would probably be prudent...

Cheers

blutto

From reading the New York Times article that MrRoboto has posted it seems like the starting year needs further scrutiny. Perhaps 1986?

Cheers

 

[blutto]

From reading the New York Times article that MrRoboto has posted it seems like the starting year needs further scrutiny. Perhaps 1986?

Cheers

...apart from having the goal-posts moved a bit further back its interesting that there was enough supply during the clinical trials period to not only supply athletes but to supply enough to have several die...because generally speaking clinical trials are run as a pretty tight ship...

...weird...

...unless of course the drugs used by the athletes were available at the same time the drug trials began and came along from a different source (and not from the clinical trials supply )...like maybe further upstream...?????...but there is still the issue of a supply which would, in a pre-manufacturing industrial quantities period, be rather small and should therefore have been easy to control...

Cheers

blutto

 

[DirtyWorks]

....unless of course the drugs used by the athletes were available at the same time the drug trials began and came along from a different source (and not from the clinical trials supply )...like maybe further upstream...?????...but there is still the issue of a supply which would, in a pre-manufacturing industrial quantities period, be rather small and should therefore have been easy to control...

Cheers

blutto

Which takes us back to Weisel's funding of Amgen.

http://cyclismas.com/2011/11/the-trifecta-that-shaped-u-s-cycling-in-the-armstrong-era/
1983 a small biotech firm by the name of Amgen.. Amgen co-founder George Rathmann somehow managed to secure $43 million for their IPO that was underwritten by three investment firms. ....The third company was a relatively new creation, ... Called Montgomery Securities, it was founded by a dynamic man by the name of Thomas Weisel who had developed a strong group of contacts in the San Francisco area.

A little later on, From the oft-quoted Outside article with the obligatory "insane training schedule" myth:

With advice from the legendary Eddie B., Weisel began training seriously to win a world championship in his age group. .... Between 1989 and 1991, Weisel won three masters world championships and five national titles on the road and track.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/High-Rollers.html?page=all

Weisel is uniquely qualified to introduce EPO to athletics. Did he himself do it? We'll never know. It would not surprise me if he did.

Again, I recall a steady stream of cyclist deaths in the 1980''s as mentioned by Doc Maserati. We need someone with dead tree copies of VeloNews from that era to spend some serious time looking for the brief mentions.

 

[Le breton]

............. When u saw Pantani on the Mortirolo, could a great Bugno do the same? Berzin, who was up to 58% blew up, Indurain the same. Bugno didn't even try, probably he knew he wasn't good enough or didn't want to risk his life pumping up to 64% like Riis.And Switserland.

What I will write here is mostly not facts, just my impressions.

Some team doctors were only willing to play with the racers lives up to a point and for Dr. Ryckaert (spelling?) that was 54%. Of course Virenque thought that was stupid and would have gone to ... 100% if they had let him.

My guess is that Indurain's Dr (Terrados?) also limited him to 54%.

Between the lines of what happened after his defeat to Riis in 1996 in the TdF I read that Indurain was willing to take chances up to a point, say 54%, but no to go to 60% just to beat Riis in 97 (assuming Riis would still be the favorite). So he quit.

As for his 88 ml/mn.kg VO2 max, I believe that to be meaningless. He was published at a time when the general public didn't know much about the effect of EPO in boosting VO2 max. And 88 was still well below the highest figures seen in athletes. My take on this is that 88 ml was just some sort of EPO-enhanced baseline VO2 max for Indurain. At his peak during the TdF he could well have been a bit higher.

As he came later in the EPO game, Armstrong was of course aware that he couldn't tell people about his real EPO-enhanced VO2 max (over 94 ml/mn.kg) during the TdF, specially considering that his "baseline" had been published everywhere, including in the Scientific American in 1996 (never above 83 ml/mn.kg).

At least Indurain had the decency of always staying modest about his unmerited "achievements".

 

[blutto]

Which takes us back to Weisel's funding of Amgen.

http://cyclismas.com/2011/11/the-trifecta-that-shaped-u-s-cycling-in-the-armstrong-era/
1983 a small biotech firm by the name of Amgen.. Amgen co-founder George Rathmann somehow managed to secure $43 million for their IPO that was underwritten by three investment firms. ....The third company was a relatively new creation, ... Called Montgomery Securities, it was founded by a dynamic man by the name of Thomas Weisel who had developed a strong group of contacts in the San Francisco area.

A little later on, From the oft-quoted Outside article with the obligatory "insane training schedule" myth:

With advice from the legendary Eddie B., Weisel began training seriously to win a world championship in his age group. .... Between 1989 and 1991, Weisel won three masters world championships and five national titles on the road and track.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/High-Rollers.html?page=all

Weisel is uniquely qualified to introduce EPO to athletics. Did he himself do it? We'll never know. It would not surprise me if he did.

Again, I recall a steady stream of cyclist deaths in the 1980''s as mentioned by Doc Maserati. We need someone with dead tree copies of VeloNews from that era to spend some serious time looking for the brief mentions.

...could this be the same Eddie B who got suspended after his part in the 84 blood doping fiasco?...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Which takes us back to Weisel's funding of Amgen.

http://cyclismas.com/2011/11/the-trifecta-that-shaped-u-s-cycling-in-the-armstrong-era/
1983 a small biotech firm by the name of Amgen.. Amgen co-founder George Rathmann somehow managed to secure $43 million for their IPO that was underwritten by three investment firms. ....The third company was a relatively new creation, ... Called Montgomery Securities, it was founded by a dynamic man by the name of Thomas Weisel who had developed a strong group of contacts in the San Francisco area.

A little later on, From the oft-quoted Outside article with the obligatory "insane training schedule" myth:

With advice from the legendary Eddie B., Weisel began training seriously to win a world championship in his age group. .... Between 1989 and 1991, Weisel won three masters world championships and five national titles on the road and track.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/High-Rollers.html?page=all

Weisel is uniquely qualified to introduce EPO to athletics. Did he himself do it? We'll never know. It would not surprise me if he did.

Again, I recall a steady stream of cyclist deaths in the 1980''s as mentioned by Doc Maserati. We need someone with dead tree copies of VeloNews from that era to spend some serious time looking for the brief mentions.

This is my problem - I was following the sport then and I do not remember any such numbers, I have gone through the (sadly) few Winning magazines from the 80s and have not come up with anything to suggest that number of deaths.

Which is why I was asking those from the Netherlands or Belgium who remember that time if they knew if their was any substance to the story. as so far it appears untrue.

 

[Le breton]

Related to those dutch and belgian riders deaths, here is an a NYTimes article from 91 (sorry if its been posted before):
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html?src=pm
QUOTE]

Although the NYT article talks of 18 pros, my recollection of those days was that there were 2 pros Osterboosch and Draijier and that the others were amateurs. In those days I was reading L'Equipe quite often during the cycling season. I may have kept the relevant articles in some file, but I don't feel it's worth dragging out. I trust my memory of what I read at the time.

Added after a quick search on the web

link to a 1990 Belgian paper given by a good French website

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/dossierdefond/1990-10-11-lesoir.htm

I will be back with an exerpt

Here it is

Les cyclistes meurent trop d'arrêts cardiaques
11/10/1990 - Le Soir - Bruno Deblander
Extraits


Comme une ombre noire, le problème du dopage plane sur les cyclistes. Aujourd'hui, la mort brutale de certains d'eux relance le débat.

Patrice Bar, Geert Reynaert, Dirk De Cauwer: ces trois noms claquent sinistrement. En l'espace de quelques jours, ces cyclistes belges sont morts, victimes de problèmes cardiaques. Comme une trentaine de leurs pairs, en moins de vingt ans. Du coup, un certain nombre de questions se posent et le spectre du dopage resurgit. Toute assimilation étant dangeureuse, il importe de respecter la mémoire de ceux qui ne sont plus. Aujourd'hui, cependant, le nom de l'érythropoïetine (EPO) est au centre du débat. Cette substance, que ses propriétés rendent fatalement très intéressante, serait à l'origine de certains décès.

Vingt-trois morts aux Pays-Bas, dix en Belgique, un en Espagne. C'est beaucoup. C'est beaucoup trop pour ne pas susciter une réflexion. Comment expliquer, en effet, que des sportifs comme l'étaient Marc De Meyer, Bert Oosterboch ou Johannes Draaijer (pour ne citer qu'eux) succombent du même mal et dans des circonstances fort analogues ? Comment admettre sans se poser de questions que trente-quatre coureurs cyclistes, pratiquant ou ayant pratiqué le vélo professionnellement parlant (ou presque), meurent d'un arrêt cardiaque ? (...)

The 34 deaths mentioned here are over a 20 years period, not just 3 years (88-89-90)

I knew one pro racer who died in his sleep at age ~32, a "small" pro who had been on a 10 or so victories streak.
That was around 1965, well before EPO.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...could this be the same Eddie B who got suspended after his part in the 84 blood doping fiasco?...

Cheers

blutto

Winner! winner! One and the same.

As a follow up to the possible mentions in Winning, I recall none. My local library had Winning at the time and I'd stop in and check it out. I had the time then. I only recall it in VN.

 

[meat puppet]

Thanks for all the participants once again. As I'm always fond of history from below type of things, this thread is an enlightening read indeed! More than a bit grim, obviously, but nonetheless good.

So if the clinic is indeed the asylum, as some mockingly insist, then it's about time it produced its own Folie et deraison.

As for his (BigMig) 88 ml/mn.kg VO2 max, I believe that to be meaningless. He was published at a time when the general public didn't know much about the effect of EPO in boosting VO2 max. And 88 was still well below the highest figures seen in athletes. My take on this is that 88 ml was just some sort of EPO-enhanced baseline VO2 max for Indurain. At his peak during the TdF he could well have been a bit higher.

Agreed. However, wouldn't the same apply to other superhigh Vo2max values recorded during that time, ie. Björn Dählie's 96ml/kg/min? I mean they, too, were recorded well into the EPO era and also during the off-season, etc. The point is not to throw mud (sorry Norsses!), but to basically apply the same logic - which IMO is a good one - to all values from that era. Seems plausible to me at least.

 

[Le breton]

.............
Agreed. However, wouldn't the same apply to other superhigh Vo2max values recorded during that time, ie. Björn Dählie's 96ml/kg/min? I mean they, too, were recorded well into the EPO era and also during the off-season, etc. The point is not to throw mud (sorry Norsses!), but to basically apply the same logic - which IMO is a good one - to all values from that era. Seems plausible to me at least.

Of course. On another thread I said the same thing about Dahlie's 96 VO2 max value and considered the 94 ml/min.kg recorded for Mieto to be possibly the highest authentic lab value ever.

 

[Gregga]

In the 90's, the rumor was also about suspect death of orienteering racers in nordic countries. A french paper http://www.bakchich.info/sport/2008/10/19/une-serie-de-morts-suspectes-dans-le-sport-53885 talks about 8 death (among 15) between 1989 and 1992 in the sweedish orienteering. The article recalls the 18 deaths in the the Netherlands and Belgium between 1987 and 1990, it's written by Dr Mondenard who is a specialist of doping in France.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Which is why I was looking for your input, thanks.

Ya, likewise I am dubious of the figures that get bandied about - however for consideration is a breakdown from this book, it lists:
Five Dutch riders died suddenly in 1987, followed by a Belgian and 2 Dutch riders in 1988 and 5 more Dutch cyclists in 1989.

There were three suspicious deaths in the Netherlands.
* Conny Meijer, 1988, died at a criterium, often is said it was EPO but the official story is she didn't take care of the flue and had heart failure
* Bert Oosterbosch, 1989, died in his sleep, no autopsy if I am right
* Johannes Draaijer 1990, die in his sleep, his autopsy showed he had a heart of a seventy years old, no proof of EPO use

There was a documentairy in the early nineties on Dutch tv about sudden deaths in pro- and amateursports:
http://zoeken.beeldengeluid.nl/inex.aspx?ternet/index.aspx?chapterid=1164&filterid=974&contentid=7&searchID=1582882&columnorderid=-1&orderby=1&itemsOnPage=10&defsortcol=12&defsortby=2&pvname=personen&pis=expressies;selecties&startrow=1&resultitemid=1&nrofresults=337&verityID=/10939/10939/10939/135971@expressies

What I will write here is mostly not facts, just my impressions.

Some team doctors were only willing to play with the racers lives up to a point and for Dr. Ryckaert (spelling?) that was 54%. Of course Virenque thought that was stupid and would have gone to ... 100% if they had let him.

My guess is that Indurain's Dr (Terrados?) also limited him to 54%.

Padilla was Indurain's preparator I believe. I think u might be right about those percentages, not every doctor was prepared to spike his rider to near death percentage.

Interesting:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/jan96/5_1.html

''Indurain, now the Yellow Jersey wants an Italian Doctor!

Echavarri has contacted (Vroom Vroom) Conconi to replace Padilla who
took off suddenly to look after the footballers of l'Atletico Bilbao

Pier Bergonzi reporting

MILANO
Miguel Indurain is half Italian already: his bike is a Pinarello,
his gruppo is Campag, his shoes are Sidi, his jersey is by Nalini
and his shades are Rudy-Project.

Now the Navarese is looking for an Italian doctor...

Wednesday, Jose Miguel Echavarri, Indurain's friend and Technical
Director, met in Milan with medical and technical gurus from the
team of celebrated Ferrari professor Francesco Conconi.

"I am seeking collaboration with Casoni, Alfieri and Lodi - said
Echavarri -. ] at least for a team get together which will be
held in Palma di Maiorca in February. There will hopefully be
some tests in Milan followed by a week at Pamplona. At the
present time the Italians lead the world in sports medicine and
training techniques."

"A void has been left by Sabino Padilla, the medic who has left
Banesto after so many years to take a position with the football
club Atletico Bilbao. Sabino, who was Indurain's personal
trainer, left without even mapping out the season", reported
Echavarri.

"So we have to find a new medic, either in Spain or in Italy, but
probably from the University of Ferrara. As of now Casoni,
Alfieri and Lodi are being considered as our consultants."

So Padilla leaves in 1995 and in 1996 Big Mig is demolished by Riis? Just a coincidence or?

Terrados was the team doctor at Once.

Between the lines of what happened after his defeat to Riis in 1996 in the TdF I read that Indurain was willing to take chances up to a point, say 54%, but no to go to 60% just to beat Riis in 97 (assuming Riis would still be the favorite). So he quit.

Interestingly in 1997 the 50% rule came in place so Indurain would have been riding with the same 'gears'. Why did he quit then? He was only 31.

As for his 88 ml/mn.kg VO2 max, I believe that to be meaningless. He was published at a time when the general public didn't know much about the effect of EPO in boosting VO2 max. And 88 was still well below the highest figures seen in athletes. My take on this is that 88 ml was just some sort of EPO-enhanced baseline VO2 max for Indurain. At his peak during the TdF he could well have been a bit higher.

As he came later in the EPO game, Armstrong was of course aware that he couldn't tell people about his real EPO-enhanced VO2 max (over 94 ml/mn.kg) during the TdF, specially considering that his "baseline" had been published everywhere, including in the Scientific American in 1996 (never above 83 ml/mn.kg).

At least Indurain had the decency of always staying modest about his unmerited "achievements".

We totally agree.

Both Indurain and Armstrong made cycling boring, but at least Indurain rode the Giro as well. And, both had have positive put under the carpet because they were too big to fail.

Weisel is uniquely qualified to introduce EPO to athletics. Did he himself do it? We'll never know. It would not surprise me if he did.

Maybe the man had some ethics left in his mind. Conconi also took EPO, he had a recorded hematocrit of 57, quite nice for a man of the age of 59 at that time

This is my problem - I was following the sport then and I do not remember any such numbers, I have gone through the (sadly) few Winning magazines from the 80s and have not come up with anything to suggest that number of deaths.

Which is why I was asking those from the Netherlands or Belgium who remember that time if they knew if their was any substance to the story. as so far it appears untrue.

http://ronnydeschepper.com/2009/02/09/hoe-sterk-is-het-hart-van-de-jonge-fietser/

17/8/1988 Connie Meijer (Nederland, 25) wielrenster tijdens criterium
during a criterium
18/8/1989 Bert Oosterbosch (Nederland, 32) ex-profwielrenner
died in his sleep
27/2/1990 Johannes Draaijer (Nederland, 26) profwielrenner bij P.D.M.
died in his sleep
14/5/1990 Eric Chanton (Frankrijk, 26) tijdens plaatselijke rittenkoers
Eric Chanton serait mort a Vicdessos Ariege France a cause d un probleme cardiaque lors de la 4e etape de la Ronde de l Isard
14/9/1990 Patrice Bar (Wallonië, 23) profwielrenner
took medicines to reduce his heartrate
3/10/1990 Geert Reynaert (Vlaanderen, 21) amateur-wielrenner
died in his sleep
http://www.bloggen.be/rodeden/archief.php?ID=1482621

And so on, just scroll down on that page and do some googling. You might say quite a lot of sleeping deaths. No proof of EPO use for any though.

Also there were quite a few pro cyclists dying or having to stop riding because of sudden heart problems. Coincidence or just the result of the heart having to pump too hard?

Of course. On another thread I said the same thing about Dahlie's 96 VO2 max value and considered the 94 ml/min.kg recorded for Mieto to be possibly the highest authentic lab value ever.

Off course EPO was also used in other endurance sports, speed skating, skiing, Nordic skiing etc etc. The Italian Nordic Skiers got the help of no - one other than Conconi, so you can do the math.

 

[GJB123]

Seeing some of the news mentioned on the linked sites, it seems that a lot of the "enexplained" deaths attributed to doping in the Netherlands in the midto late '80-s concern either young riders and/or amateur riders. Now I have never been into that scene too much, but what I do know that using of PED's is rampant if I am to believe some of my friends who are much more into that scene. However just attributing all or almost all of these deaths to PED's (and even worse the early use of EPO) rather than natural causes still seems far fetched to me. Sure some of those deaths can no doubt be linked to PED-use, but it is too risky to treat them all as PED-related let alone EPO-related.

Also what I understand from the amateur scene is that PED-use isn't of the scientific advanced kind (which EPO clearly was at that time) but rather of the old fashioned type of "Pot Belge" with lots of things like amfetamines, testorone and stuff like that. Old school PED-use therefore, clearly not without risk, but I would be highly surprised to learn that before Oosterbosh and Draaijer amateur and junior riders were dropping like flies in the second half of the '80-s because they managed to get their hands on some EPO before all the pro's got to the party. Generally it is the other way around. The pro's get in early with new stuff and that trickles down to the amateurs in due course.

I am happy to be convinced otherwise though and still learning new stuff, so keep it coming.

Regards
GJ

 

[pmcg76]

Seeing some of the news mentioned on the linked sites, it seems that a lot of the "enexplained" deaths attributed to doping in the Netherlands in the midto late '80-s concern either young riders and/or amateur riders. Now I have never been into that scene too much, but what I do know that using of PED's is rampant if I am to believe some of my friends who are much more into that scene. However just attributing all or almost all of these deaths to PED's (and even worse the early use of EPO) rather than natural causes still seems far fetched to me. Sure some of those deaths can no doubt be linked to PED-use, but it is too risky to treat them all as PED-related let alone EPO-related.

Also what I understand from the amateur scene is that PED-use isn't of the scientific advanced kind (which EPO clearly was at that time) but rather of the old fashioned type of "Pot Belge" with lots of things like amfetamines, testorone and stuff like that. Old school PED-use therefore, clearly not without risk, but I would be highly surprised to learn that before Oosterbosh and Draaijer amateur and junior riders were dropping like flies in the second half of the '80-s because they managed to get their hands on some EPO before all the pro's got to the party. Generally it is the other way around. The pro's get in early with new stuff and that trickles down to the amateurs in due course.

I am happy to be convinced otherwise though and still learning new stuff, so keep it coming.

Regards
GJ

This seems logical to me also, I would be very surprised if Amateur and female riders were getting hold of EPO before the pro's had first mastered and reaped the benefits of EPO.

For example, Oosterbosch rode for Panasonic in 87 and TVM in 88. Peter Winnen and Allan Peiper rode for Panasonic in 87 and yet they date the introduction of EPO to 89/90.

TVM was the team Joe Parkin rode for in 87 and for whom Jesper Skibby joined in 89. Once again neither mentions EPO pre 1990. Surely if Oosterbosch had been using EPO, some of his team-mates would have known or he was using it in the strictest of secrecy by himself.

I just find it hard to believe that if EPO was being used pre 1989, then nobody in the pro peloton seems to have heard about it.

 

[meat puppet]

In the 90's, the rumor was also about suspect death of orienteering racers in nordic countries. A french paper http://www.bakchich.info/sport/2008/10/19/une-serie-de-morts-suspectes-dans-le-sport-53885 talks about 8 death (among 15) between 1989 and 1992 in the sweedish orienteering. The article recalls the 18 deaths in the the Netherlands and Belgium between 1987 and 1990, it's written by Dr Mondenard who is a specialist of doping in France.

I remember the news about the orienteering deaths in Sweden as well, though I was just a kid back then. Curiously enough, in the Finnish media they were linked not to doping, but to partying and more specifically swigging redbull vodkas at races.

 

[hrotha]

This seems logical to me also, I would be very surprised if Amateur and female riders were getting hold of EPO before the pro's had first mastered and reaped the benefits of EPO.

What if it was the deliberate decision of a doping doctor to use those Dutch amateur riders as guinea pigs to figure out the correct way to use EPO before giving it to the pros? I guess it's possible, but far-fetched.

 

[pmcg76]

What if it was the deliberate decision of a doping doctor to use those Dutch amateur riders as guinea pigs to figure out the correct way to use EPO before giving it to the pros? I guess it's possible, but far-fetched.

I would say that is far-fetched and incredibly unethical though doping doctors are not renowned for the highest set of ethics either I guess. How did the likes of Conconi, Ferrari etc figure out how to use it without having lots of athletes die.

I know Joachim Halupczok died but EPO had been in circulation for a few years by then. Any suggestions as to who those dastardly doctors might have been in the low countries, Van Mol? Rijkaert? Sanders? Janssen?

Rijkaert and Janssen seemed somewhat ethically minded according to some of their cyclists accounts, Sanders was found guilty of supplying EPO from 1990 onwards leaving Van Mol. Any other suggestions?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sure some of those deaths can no doubt be linked to PED-use, but it is too risky to treat them all as PED-related let alone EPO-related.

So, killing one or two as a result of the worst kind of human experimentation is okay? I agree that one cannot attribute all of them to EPO. But, the number of deaths go up dramatically with the appearance of EPO.

Also what I understand from the amateur scene is that PED-use isn't of the scientific advanced kind (which EPO clearly was at that time) but rather of the old fashioned type of "Pot Belge" with lots of things like amfetamines, testorone and stuff like that.

I'm not sure what purpose your kind of denial serves.

Disagree. Administering EPO is a shot. Amateur Teams were/are administering shots as a regular matter. Remember that Eddie B. was re-infusing blood in the U.S. circa 1984 without any medical training whatsoever. Chris Carmichael and Rene Wenzel were injecting juniors with no-one knows what after Eddie B. was disgraced.

There are countless examples of the sophistication in cheating at the amateur level of sport.