First EPO users in the peloton?

[Dr. Maserati]

<snipped for brevity>.

Added after a quick search on the web

link to a 1990 Belgian paper given by a good French website

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/dossierdefond/1990-10-11-lesoir.htm

I will be back with an exerpt

Here it is

Les cyclistes meurent trop d'arrêts cardiaques
11/10/1990 - Le Soir - Bruno Deblander
Extraits

Apologies, I am only getting to this post now.
Thanks for that additional information.

I have always been curious about where that number came from and was it accurate. While I would not put all the deaths down to EPO (or any PED) a significant spike in unexplained fatalities would certainly be suspicious.

<snipped for brevity> ......but I would be highly surprised to learn that before Oosterbosh and Draaijer amateur and junior riders were dropping like flies in the second half of the '80-s because they managed to get their hands on some EPO before all the pro's got to the party. Generally it is the other way around. The pro's get in early with new stuff and that trickles down to the amateurs in due course.
...

This seems logical to me also, I would be very surprised if Amateur and female riders were getting hold of EPO before the pro's had first mastered and reaped the benefits of EPO.
... <snipped>

I had a wry smile when I read both your responses - even though I was the one looking for more information about the riders who said I had the same thoughts as yourselves "why would it be amateurs getting hold of EPO?"

My only theory on that is to an earlier linked piece that says that the European EPO production was in Germany. Only over the border from Holland & Belgium.
We know from Joe Parkins book that the back street dealing was done by soigneurs often at kermeeses and was alive and well at the time (EPO and the arrival of Doctors to administer it probably killed that side earner for them) and perhaps someone managed to get a hold of lmited stock without knowing its potency or dangers.

 

[pmcg76]

This is an interesting article from 1991 in which Draaijer's wife/widow Anna-Lisa says that he used EPO and implies that the drug had a role in his death.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html

It's an early article taking about EPO use. Most of the articles talking about EPO in the early 90s were actually published after Festina, so this one is interesting to me. I used google translate to get it into english and it worked pretty well.

Has anyone seen the Manfred Krikke TV interview from 1997? He was the general Manager of PDM (Draaijer's team) and in it he supposedly describes EPO use by PDM in the early 90s.

It seems that PDM under Wim Sanders was engaged in systematic EPO use in 1990-1. I wonder if Sanders came up with the idea on his own, or if it was introduced to him by another doctor or rider. Does anyone know where Sanders worked before PDM? I believe he arrived there in 1990.

Also, I've had some difficulty tracing the career of Eric Rijckaert. He was a doctor at PDM and Festina. Wikipedia has him at PDM beginning in 1986, but in an interview Rijckaert claims that he arrived at PDM in 1992, having been at Tulip before that. I'd like to see some of the careers of the early 90s doctors traced from team to team. Do the Italian doctors and the Dutch doctors connect or are they working on their own?

Also, it seems that there is EPO "research" by doctors in different geographical regions, the Netherlands, Italy, Scandinavia. It would be interesting to see connections between the doctors in these different areas.

Yes, Rijckaert is mentioned by Joe Parkin in his book as being the doctor at Tulip in 1990. Where he was before that I dont know.

It was Manfred Kriekke who brought Sanders to PDM in 1990. I think the doctor at PDM before Sanders was Dr.Peter Janssen who had also worked with Panasonic in the 80s.

 

[BotanyBay]

This is an interesting article from 1991 in which Draaijer's wife/widow Anna-Lisa says that he used EPO and implies that the drug had a role in his death.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html

It's an early article taking about EPO use. Most of the articles talking about EPO in the early 90s were actually published after Festina, so this one is interesting to me. I used google translate to get it into english and it worked pretty well.

From Kathy Lemond's perspective:

http://greglemond.com/blog/doping-and-those-we-love/

 

[meat puppet]

Not sure why that's so surprising?

First of all, thanks for the info, once again. It was an interesting read.

Though I'm quite familiar with the fact that intensive training lowers Hb, I was nonetheless a bit surprised that the reported numbers were lower than the population wide mean. I mean, these guys are not 15hr/wk weekend warriors at a constant 16,5 Hb like me, but actually gifted athletes who put in the hours. So perhaps my grasp of how much Hb actually drops due to serious training has been too generous.

Put more generally, I guess the EPO era has generated certain invalid commonplaces guiding our thought of what is normal or to be expected. The inability to tell black from white is part of the problem for sure, and here I was caught red handed.

Sorry for the off topic, too.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Actually Skibby admitted to doping from 91 and using EPO from 93 so includes many of his best performances whilst doping.

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=10265

Where I named PED I should have said EPO, you are right. And Skippy did have some decent results but we might say his peak was in the early nineties.

This is an interesting article from 1991 in which Draaijer's wife/widow Anna-Lisa says that he used EPO and implies that the drug had a role in his death.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html

To be fair to Draaijer and his widow I have to point out I have other sources which state something different and his widow actually denies ever speaking to der Spiegel or stating Draaijer took EPO.

 

[cocteau_ireland]

What about the Bayern Munich doctor. He's still there!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Update

Per this post by late-80's pro: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1042206&postcount=1102

Death probably by EPO: Patrice Bar. Johannes Drier (sp?) of PDM also died

This fits my recollection of the era, but there's no way I'd remember names.

 

[esafosfina]

This is an interesting article from 1991 in which Draaijer's wife/widow Anna-Lisa says that he used EPO and implies that the drug had a role in his death.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13488551.html

It's an early article taking about EPO use. Most of the articles talking about EPO in the early 90s were actually published after Festina, so this one is interesting to me. I used google translate to get it into english and it worked pretty well.

Has anyone seen the Manfred Krikke TV interview from 1997? He was the general Manager of PDM (Draaijer's team) and in it he supposedly describes EPO use by PDM in the early 90s.

It seems that PDM under Wim Sanders was engaged in systematic EPO use in 1990-1. I wonder if Sanders came up with the idea on his own, or if it was introduced to him by another doctor or rider. Does anyone know where Sanders worked before PDM? I believe he arrived there in 1990.

Also, I've had some difficulty tracing the career of Eric Rijckaert. He was a doctor at PDM and Festina. Wikipedia has him at PDM beginning in 1986, but in an interview Rijckaert claims that he arrived at PDM in 1992,

having been at Tulip before that.

I'd like to see some of the careers of the early 90s doctors traced from team to team. Do the Italian doctors and the Dutch doctors connect or are they working on their own?

Also, it seems that there is EPO "research" by doctors in different geographical regions, the Netherlands, Italy, Scandinavia. It would be interesting to see connections between the doctors in these different areas.

Never employed as official Tulip doctor in 91 that much I can say. Lilholt and I visited him in both 1990 and 1991 and from my perspective he was on the money with his training techniques and preparatory programs... I couldn't afford the fee he was asking, others could! There for the grace, etc etc...

 

[Tinman]

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a beautifull list of who is who in cycling, ergo, which team doctor is where? Nowadays with the internet we can easily find out the whereabouts of for instance a Ibarguren, track his record, where he worked and what the outcome was. The early days of the EPO - era, still ongoing, are still a blur. A lot of speculation.

just caught this thread. Your suggestion is exactly what my wife has been suggesting over the last few weeks... beyond me but would connect a few dots for sure...

 

[compete_clean]

Where did I suggest such a ridiculous idea?



No need to be agressive there mate

1987 Giro: Nobody. He was a neo-pro on a team with no contenders. Yet he was just 5 seconds from the pink jersey after 16 stages.

1988 Giro: Working for Bugno, until Bugno crashed and broke a shoulderblade.

1988 Tour: Rominger was the leader for once. In Bugno's words:



1989 Giro: Working for Bugno who was very high up on GC and would've finished on the podium if not for a major collapse on stage 21

Bugno was never a "mule" or "middle pack" rider. In 1986 he won giro del Friulli as a first (full) year pro -- as I remember . It's not a classic but it was pretty big race.

 

[compete_clean]

Connie Meijer hit by a truck

Mieke Havik IIRC was the Dutch woman cyclist who dropped dead on the start line of a race. I think she is the first person described as having "thick blood".

It's been a long time so I'm not sure if I have that correct.

 

[Maillot Vert]

Mieke Havik IIRC was the Dutch woman cyclist who dropped dead on the start line of a race. I think she is the first person described as having "thick blood".

It's been a long time so I'm not sure if I have that correct.

Mieke Havik is alive and well. And no she didn't drop dead on the start line of a race.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieke_Havik

 

[compete_clean]

Mieke Havik is alive and well. And no she didn't drop dead on the start line of a race.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieke_Havik

Oops. Good to hear (yikes).

What dutch woman dropped dead on the start line of a race?

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Guys
EPO was first outlawed because cyclists were dropping dead on the road.

The first epo user is probably one of them DEAD.

Too many to name one

That' good one.

Individuals though? I would have thought it would be more of a team managed program.... so I pick TVM.

...Look who's bAaaaaaack... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tvm-returns-to-peloton-as-sponsor-of-dutch-amateur-team

 

[DirtyWorks]

That' good one.

Individuals though? I would have thought it would be more of a team managed program.... so I pick TVM.

...Look who's bAaaaaaack... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tvm-returns-to-peloton-as-sponsor-of-dutch-amateur-team

Again, this is a murky subject because it's all pre-Internet. I recall reading about riders dying of heart attacks very clearly, but never had any names or references. Here's two riders probably dead from EPO: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1042206&postcount=1102

The reason this is a hot topic for me is for the pretenders that come in claiming variations of "no one has died from PED's." Now we have two strong candidates.

 

[Irish2009]

Just a brief interlude, it is said that the USA team in the 1984 Olympics used blood transfusions, since then I would imagine it proliterated into the pro peloton until someone realised "hey you can just inject epo for the same effect".

 

[masking_agent]

Just a brief interlude, it is said that the USA team in the 1984 Olympics used blood transfusions, since then I would imagine it proliterated into the pro peloton until someone realised "hey you can just inject epo for the same effect".

I'd say Eddie B quite possibly ?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Never employed as official Tulip doctor in 91 that much I can say. Lilholt and I visited him in both 1990 and 1991 and from my perspective he was on the money with his training techniques and preparatory programs... I couldn't afford the fee he was asking, others could! There for the grace, etc etc...

I PM'd you for some more information. You can read the message by clicking on "private messages" link near the upper right side of the page.

 

[coinneach]

Colin Sturgess

I haven't seen any reference in this thread to this former British World champion: he speaks about EPO being around before 1990, BUT, that year, it really broke out into widespread use. He was on the Dutch Tulip squad at that time:
http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2012/09/28/colin-sturgess-interview-part-two/

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I haven't seen any reference in this thread to this former British World champion: he speaks about EPO being around before 1990, BUT, that year, it really broke out into widespread use. He was on the Dutch Tulip squad at that time:
http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2012/09/28/colin-sturgess-interview-part-two/

Mr. Sturgess is here.You could PM him.

 

[blutto]

I haven't seen any reference in this thread to this former British World champion: he speaks about EPO being around before 1990, BUT, that year, it really broke out into widespread use. He was on the Dutch Tulip squad at that time:
http://www.veloveritas.co.uk/2012/09/28/colin-sturgess-interview-part-two/

...an interesting comment from the article....

"Also 1990 was-controversially speaking-the start of the EPO years. It had been around for ages...."

....though one should read the whole article to contextualize the above quote and also to have a great insight into a slice of the life of a pro...

Cheers

blutto

 

[DirtyWorks]

Per this post by late-80's pro: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1042206&postcount=1102

Death probably by EPO: Patrice Bar. Johannes Drier (sp?) of PDM also died

This fits my recollection of the era, but there's no way I'd remember names.

I've struck a rich vein of pre-Internet doping history circa 1990. I have asked esasofina via PM to add any recollections before I post the whole thing.

I got another one that MIGHT be EPO related. Geert De Vlaeminck, dies in the middle of a cyclocross race of a heart attack. Does anyone have any extra information to prove/disprove the possibility it was EPO-related? The era is right.

And then there's this story in Dutch: http://ronnydeschepper.com/2012/07/05/wielrenner-rob-goris-30-overleden/

Money quote: ... Back then you had all these sudden cardiac deaths in the pack: sixteen, if I'm not mistaken. Patrice Bar, Gert Reynaert, Bert Oosterbosch - many riders have died in their sleep. I'm not saying it all EPO was due - I'm not a doctor - but as many insiders suspect that the injudicious use of EPO had to do. J'avais trop peur: I am not touched. "

Patrice Bar's name again tied to death by PED.

 

[coinneach]

Colin Sturgess

I real example of a victim of the doping culture....little wonder good folk gave up cycling.
I wonder what he thinks about British Cycling now?

 

[Shardi]

Just looking back at all those early 90s videos.. All GT riders seemed heavier... compare that to todays GT riders, who have absolutely no muscle mass...

Seems like harder EPO control tunes the bodies of GT riders.. From the early 90s where u could supply all that muscle mass like Indurain, Rominger, Riis etc..

Now look at the pinnacle of GT riders: Wiggins, Froome, Contador, S.Sanchez A.Schleck, Hesjedal not a single musclefiber of extra..

 

[DirtyWorks]

Just looking back at all those early 90s videos.. All GT riders seemed heavier... compare that to todays GT riders, who have absolutely no muscle mass...

Seems like harder EPO control tunes the bodies of GT riders.. From the early 90s where u could supply all that muscle mass like Indurain, Rominger, Riis etc..

Now look at the pinnacle of GT riders: Wiggins, Froome, Contador, S.Sanchez A.Schleck, Hesjedal not a single musclefiber of extra..

How much of it is pharmacology and how much of it is pursuing extraordinary Watts/Kilo through very low bodyweight via genetic gifts or plain old starvation as JV1973 mentioned in a post about one of his riders is almost impossible to answer.