Highly interesting thread.
Lots of interesting posts. And interesting to see the bias for different riders come out too sometimes.
Read the whole thing... a few comments and questions.
Gewiss 94. That was clearly a further jump. What exactly did they do differently than before? Can't have been the first to use, clearly, but they very very clearly had a huge advantage over the rest of the peloton that year. Just more? Or the first ones to really use it effectively, or as a team? Thge rest then followed suit in 95?
Then disagree a bit with the occasional "the doctors are devils" sentiment. Guys like Ferrari etc. just simply know what they are doing. No Ferraris around and you have more doping deads around, that simple. Guy with an IQ like Riccò and EPO around without more info on how to use it and he's dead in 3 days. Self policing of teams and riders was clearly there too, mentioned here, or see Järmann's confession. (Still IMO one of the most valuable confessions, since it came out of nothing, no special suspicion of him, he had retired and could have just kept silent) First confronted with EPO in an Italian Team (Ariostea obviously, since he only rode for Feretti in Italy), not forced, he says the team docotor informed them about EPO, what it did, mentioning that all others were already using it. He says that internally they put the limit at 48%. Then up to 50% a year later, and then 52% a year later again. He himself probably started using it in 95. Or 96, not very clear there. He still won Amstel clean in 93, a Tour stage in 92, so very likely around then EPO wasn't that widespread yet, not used to it's max yet, (not only at Ariostea, but other teams too). The link to his confession:
http://www.jaermann.ch/Tagebuch/Doping.pdf
First GT winner with EPO?
Doubt it's in the 80es somehow. Might be wrong, no clue really. But again, until Gewiss and Riis in 93 (the first year he suddenly was in the GC, before he was a mule. Or imaginable as a stage chaser, never a GC contender) somehow everything seems more normal not only at the time, but in retrospect too.
Some names thrown around:
- Bugno. He was considered a huge talent in Italy. But yes, his 90 Giro was much stronger than could be expected, I for one never thought he would ever win a GT. More of a classic guy than a GT guy...(but then I never liked him, so biased on that one)
- Chioccioli 91. Possible, but he certainly wasn't a mule. He had shown GC potential at the Giro since his earliest participations, just never enough. The last step with EPO though is certainly possible.
- Chiappucci. Ok, never won anything, still put him in here: He came out of.. almost nothing. Not completely nothing.. he had a serious injury early on in his career, a parked car on a downhill in the TdS. Then showed some potential... but not really all that much. 90 TdF itself wasn't that surprising then I thought. Good Giro before, and with a 10' advantage he had something to fight for, thought that what he then showed in 91-92 was almost more surprising.. According to his wiki page he later said he took EPO from 93 on...later retracted it. Doesn't mean wasn't earlier. looks suspiciously like defending his good results as clean.
- Rominger: Likely he was on EPO for all his GT wins. But he certainly wasn't a mule either. Ok, might be biased, since I'm swiss, but he was regarded as a guy with very high potential already before that. The swiss press expected him to fight for the win in 90 or 91 too, he failed miserably there. But IMO not a mule.
-Indurain... see Rominger for the EPO probability. But he had been tipped as a future Tour winner for years. After 90 newspapers were full of "was a mistake to have Delgado as leader". So.. 91 he might have been on EPO, but I wouldn't bet my life on it, after all Mottet who is regarded as clean still came in 4th. Later on of course for sure, for 91, don't really know, but could still imagine him being EPO less. But anyway, seeing the jump by Riis in 93 and the GEwissjump in 94 it seems likely that even if he was on EPO, it was a smaller dosis.
Not mentioned much here:
Giovannetti: Vuelta 90. I'd say good chances of being clean (of EPO) He had shown GC potential all his career, here profited from an escape, defended it, which seemed fully within his potential. A surprise winner, but with the escape present not really anymore.
Mauri: Vuelta 91. While Bugno 90, Chiappucci 90 and others could be very well possible too... he just looks like a clear EPO Baby. Really out of nowhere, compared to him Chiappucci in 90 was a superstar... Beating Indurain everywhere in TTs....
80s.. .very very likely some guys were on it, like that Hermans guy somebody mentioned. The big guys... of course possible too. Even if of the winners nobody looks really suspicious, nobody who couldn't have done it without EPO. Interesting guys like Giupponi. 5th, 4th, 2nd from 87-89 in the Giro then never could played a role again really. Best then 11th in 93. Early EPO user? Or clean guy that then was a victim of others EPO? Somehow both seems possible. First Giro in 86 as a Neo 43rd, but seems to have had success as an amateur, Valle d'Aosta, Giro delle Regioni
But anyway, to me the performances that just seem VERY clearly a result of early or stronger dosage of EPO
- Mauri
- Riis from 93 on
- Gewiss 94
Higher dosage than others at the time, or generally better usage, don't know, but that's the 3 performances that were completely unexplainable, or lets say barely explainable without a wonderdrug at the time.
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