First EPO users in the peloton?

[ultimobici]

Stephen Roche won the TDF..Giro and World Champs. He never came close to repeating that kind of form. In the 90,s an Italian court concluded Roche and others on the Carrera team were adjudicated to have been using EPO under Conconi,s guidance from 93 >.
This all begs the question was Roche possibly using EPO in 87 ?..though I suspect blood banking more likely.

So what of his 1981 Paris Nice win or the 1985 TdF third? Are you going to cast aspersions on them too?

Having read of your exploits in CW during the 80's then witnessing your lack of form in Spain I could conclude that you doped yourself to the ills as an amateur. But I don't.

Roche was always a gifted but fragile rider. Much of his later career 1988 and on was a desperate struggle to regain form. If he'd been blood-doping in the late 80's & on EPO in the 90's why did he not win anything worth talking about?

Perhaps he should pursue a refund?!

 

["Jeff"]

Not cycling related but I actually think Yvonne van Gennip (speedskating) might have used EPO during the Olympics in 1988. Decent but not great, she suddenly won three gold medals. All skaters from East-Germany finished 2nd/3rd and 4th.

 

["Jeff"]

Not cycling related but I actually think Yvonne van Gennip (speedskating) might have used EPO during the Olympics in 1988. Decent but not great, she suddenly won three gold medals. All skaters from East-Germany finished 2nd/3rd and 4th.

EPO got on the market early in The Netherlands and Belgium.

 

[Darryl Webster]

So what of his 1981 Paris Nice win or the 1985 TdF third? Are you going to cast aspersions on them too?

Having read of your exploits in CW during the 80's then witnessing your lack of form in Spain I could conclude that you doped yourself to the ills as an amateur. But I don't.

Roche was always a gifted but fragile rider. Much of his later career 1988 and on was a desperate struggle to regain form. If he'd been blood-doping in the late 80's & on EPO in the 90's why did he not win anything worth talking about?

Perhaps he should pursue a refund?!

Hey, I never had a court rule I,d been using EPO. Roche did. I,m not saying he used EPO in 87..but If you think he was clean your welcome to that opinion. I doubt very much he was.

 

[HSNHSN]

Then perhaps you would stop spouting this idea that blood doping was being used in the pro peloton during the 80s.

Now I am not saying 100% it wasnt happening but based on the testimonies we have heard atransfusion as a doping was another Italian invention.
- 'Met epo heb ik me nooit beziggehouden. Dat werd me te gortig.': I never administered EPO. That was a bridge too far.

nd I have displayed, it would seem highly unlikely that blood doping was taking place or even that EPO was used before 1990. Some hard info always beats guesswork.

I'm somewhat surprised to read this reaction on a rather cynical seeming forum like this. What I'm writing might well be nothing new - I didn't feel like sifting through the entire 50 pages tbh. However, proof of usage of blood doping before 1990 has come up in this article. Unfortunately it's in dutch but it deals with the notes by the PDM team 'doctor' (a function not formally existing at the time) from the 1988 TdF. What we can see is that at least three PDM riders were having blood transfusions during that TdF ('zakje(s) bloed' means 'bag(s) of blood')

The accompanying text also contains two interesting statements:
- 'Ook het toedienen van een zak eigen bloed is als doping uit Italië komen overwaaien.': using blood transfusion as a doping was another Italian invention. This sounds as if the practice was rather widespread by then.

- 'Met epo heb ik me nooit beziggehouden. Dat werd me te gortig.': I never administered EPO. That was a bridge too far. This doesn't tell us too much about the beginning of EPO, but it suggests this guy knew about its existence in '88. It is thus a relatively safe assumption that there were cyclists who already used it as PED that year.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Then disagree a bit with the occasional "the doctors are devils" sentiment. Guys like Ferrari etc. just simply know what they are doing. No Ferraris around and you have more doping deads around, that simple.

The race is no longer on the bike but in the doctor's bag.

Seems legit.

HSNHSN, does it clearly state that EPO was available then? Because I can imagine a scenario where the athlete is introduced to EPO later, and the same negative response applies. I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking.

 

[HSNHSN]

It doesn't clearly state it, it's just there when reading between the lines. It just explicitly states this 'doctor' (soigneur?) didn't administer it. Unfortunately I seem to be unable to find for how long he remained in this position.

It wouldn't be too surprising they already knew about its existance, though, considering the fact one of the rumoured EPO-related deaths was Johannes Draaijer, who was actually cycling for PDM at the time. This will all remain speculation, I expect.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Bertus Fok followed - with Peter Janssen - Rooks and Theunisse to the Panasonic team where he stayed untill at least 1993.

 

[DirtyWorks]

As I mentioned in my previous post, there has been numerous confessions of doping in the 80s but am yet to hear a single mention of EPO pre 1990 or of blood doping at all.

Dredging this thread up to post an interview with Inga Thompson. She was an elite American cyclist in the 1980's with first-hand experience with the introduction of EPO.

But in the spring of 1987, suddenly Jeannie [Longo] just completely exploded. We were at the Tour of Texas, I was putting my usual time gaps on Jeannie through the road stages, but when I went to Europe six weeks later, Jeannie was putting two and three minute improvements into me in the time trials, even when I was still putting a minute or more into everyone else!

1987.

http://www.theouterline.com/perspectives-on-doping-in-pro-cycling-2-inga-thompson-5/

An IAAF paper on the EPO includes a timeline.

http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html

1988 FIS bans EPO even though there was no test. The sports federations knew about it almost before it was introduced.

1987.

 

[del1962]

Dredging this thread up to post an interview with Inga Thompson. She was an elite American cyclist in the 1980's with first-hand experience with the introduction of EPO.

But in the spring of 1987, suddenly Jeannie [Longo] just completely exploded. We were at the Tour of Texas, I was putting my usual time gaps on Jeannie through the road stages, but when I went to Europe six weeks later, Jeannie was putting two and three minute improvements into me in the time trials, even when I was still putting a minute or more into everyone else!

1987.

http://www.theouterline.com/perspectives-on-doping-in-pro-cycling-2-inga-thompson-5/

There is a lot of info on blood doping in 84 in the article

 

[blutto]

Dredging this thread up to post an interview with Inga Thompson. She was an elite American cyclist in the 1980's with first-hand experience with the introduction of EPO.

But in the spring of 1987, suddenly Jeannie [Longo] just completely exploded. We were at the Tour of Texas, I was putting my usual time gaps on Jeannie through the road stages, but when I went to Europe six weeks later, Jeannie was putting two and three minute improvements into me in the time trials, even when I was still putting a minute or more into everyone else!

1987.

http://www.theouterline.com/perspectives-on-doping-in-pro-cycling-2-inga-thompson-5/

An IAAF paper on the EPO includes a timeline.

http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html

1988 FIS bans EPO even though there was no test. The sports federations knew about it almost before it was introduced.

1987.

....yeah that was a weird time in women's cycling with several such "explosions" occurring over the next decade or so...

.....and btw that first "explosion" also has to be viewed alongside the sudden relegation of Maria Canins from a role of quite dominating dominance to second fiddle....always wondered about that but news about women's cycling was pretty thin in those days so that development was just filed under mystery-never-to-be-solved ( so maybe now, with a few more such articles, we may solve the mysteries surrounding these "explosions"....)

...and further btw...nice to see the EPO timeline finally being defined with more rigour ( and generally believed by the forum )...remember a time not too long ago when a few brave souls argued in this forum about its availability in 88 and 89 and being trashed roundly by a group of very dedicated fan boys...

Cheers

 

[jens_attacks]

so now jeannie longo first epo pioneer before conconi's italians,before rominger,before dutch...yeah right just because jeannie didn't care about some american race(hello lemond & lance) and destroyed everyone in europe
by the spring of 1987, jeannie was already world champ and the best women cyclist of the world, she definitely was open to everything but she didn't get epo on her hands so early. i really doubt it.

i still count ferrari's file with rominger hematocrit in 1990 as the first evidence of epo use in the peloton. that's evidence yes sir

 

[DirtyWorks]

i still count ferrari's file with rominger hematocrit in 1990 as the first evidence of epo use in the peloton. that's evidence yes sir

Uhh, well, then what about FIS (skiing federation) banning EPO in 1988? The federation knew about it circa 1987.

Go ahead and believe, but many corroborating facts are there to definitively support 1987.

 

[blackcat]

so now jeannie longo first epo pioneer before conconi's italians,before rominger,before dutch...yeah right just because jeannie didn't care about some american race(hello lemond & lance) and destroyed everyone in europe
by the spring of 1987, jeannie was already world champ and the best women cyclist of the world, she definitely was open to everything but she didn't get epo on her hands so early. i really doubt it.

i still count ferrari's file with rominger hematocrit in 1990 as the first evidence of epo use in the peloton. that's evidence yes sir

i am with you.

i dont buy it.

my first thought, this woman has something against her old rival. But this is too early. Before the men? before conconi et al?

does not meet the smell test? Doping in european cycling was less scientific, testo and corticosteroids and some aphetamines in your pot belge.

Longo, first first wave? does not hold water.

just like all those deaths only being ringfenced to holland? nope, never met the smell test neither. For a cluster to be confined to holland, (i) it should have had a full on epidemiology study, and (ii) much higher profile. 10 salansons in the 80s, nup. folks need to think a bit, before passing on memes and apocyphal anecdotes.

 

[Walkman]

Uhh, well, then what about FIS (skiing federation) banning EPO in 1988? The federation knew about it circa 1987.

Go ahead and believe, but many corroborating facts are there to definitively support 1987.

I remember reading unconfirmed reports that EPO did enter the market in the late 80's, however access was very limited. From what I know the italians are rumor to be the first users.

 

[Tinman]

1987 or possibly 1986 for a first date of non-clinical trial use makes total sense. I recall another clinic thread on first EPO timing some 1-2 years ago where this was discussed quite in depth.

Accurate dates of first use must be directly linked to drug availability and supply, most likely Amgen and Eddy B's connection via Thomas Weisel.

The first Amgen paper was published in Jan 1987, would have been submitted for publication early 1986, and trial conducted 1985. We can assume limited drug availability via Weisel from 1986 or so. Eddy B is likely to have been the first "distributor".

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198701083160203

Here's links to relevant patents, seminal EPO production patent date 1987.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...5,441,868.PN.&OS=PN/5,441,868&RS=PN/5,441,868

 

[Escarabajo]

Just read the Conconi files to find out about the details of use in Cycling.

 

[Metabolol]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were someone using it as early as 87. Certainly in 88, olympic year and all.

 

[Nomoracer]

In August 1988, I raced in the junior mens category of a criterium in Holland. Connie Meijer died in the womens race of cadiac failure which was attributed to a "neglected flu" or something like that. She was the bronze medalist in the World Championship Road Race in 1987.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

experiments on obtaining natural EPO from urine for example started in 1977. 1987is significant because in that year they were able for the first time to synthesize EPO.

Well, urine, EPO - so can urine drinking (plenty of mentions througout the history, even some sports guys) be also some kind of doping?

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

experiments on obtaining natural EPO from urine for example started in 1977. 1987is significant because in that year they were able for the first time to synthesize EPO.

Well, urine, EPO - so can urine drinking (plenty of mentions througout the history, even some sports guys) be also some kind of doping?

'Why do you think they call it dope?'

Dave.

 

[Dr.Guess]

Bout blood doping. Is it possible that because the difficulties of the logistics during the 80s the riders couldn't get the full effects of autologous blood doping thus meaning the VAMs wouldn't be as high as in the 90s? Just a theory up for discussion.

Btw, great interview with Inga. That's what a real anti- doping person sounds like. Naming names etc.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Most interesting post, tinman.
Must have been 'rehashing old arguments', seeing how nobody replied.

1987 or possibly 1986 for a first date of non-clinical trial use makes total sense. I recall another clinic thread on first EPO timing some 1-2 years ago where this was discussed quite in depth.

Accurate dates of first use must be directly linked to drug availability and supply, most likely Amgen and Eddy B's connection via Thomas Weisel.

The first Amgen paper was published in Jan 1987, would have been submitted for publication early 1986, and trial conducted 1985. We can assume limited drug availability via Weisel from 1986 or so. Eddy B is likely to have been the first "distributor".

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198701083160203

Here's links to relevant patents, seminal EPO production patent date 1987.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...5,441,868.PN.&OS=PN/5,441,868&RS=PN/5,441,868

wowzers. Eddie B as an early EPO fixer? Blood transfusions, amphetamines, hormones, sure, but EPO? Eddie? Say it aint so!

For a bit more background, here's a very clear, concise piece on the advent of EPO.

Goldwasser wanted to work with a company to develop EPO's potential and, in the early 1980s, approached a high-tech start-up in California. As it was, financier Franklin "Pitch" Johnson, investment banker Bill Bowes and Abbott Labs' executive George Rathmann had just formed Amgen and needed a "hot" product. When Goldwasser offered to share his cache of the world's only supply of purified EPO, Amgen jumped. U.S. taxpayers may have spent decades and a king's ransom helping Goldwasser unlock the secrets of this protein. But Amgen grabbed the rights to it for a song.

The company spent years trying to clone the gene. In late 1983, Amgen raised $40 million in an initial public offering underwritten by Smith Barney, Dean Witter and Montgomery Securities, founded by amateur cyclist Thom Weisel, who also financed the U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team led by Armstrong.

By the mid-1980s, Amgen filed for the key patent on producing recombinant EPO. But to monetize its product, it needed regulatory approval. So, it cut a deal with health-care giant Johnson & Johnson. If Johnson & Johnson would help secure approval from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Johnson & Johnson could sell EPO for all medical markets except renal failure. Amgen thought it had the better part of the deal, but Johnson & Johnson would soon demonstrate otherwise.

That set the stage for escalating cutthroat competition between the pharmaceutical giants that mirrored the growth of EPO in the parallel world of cycling.

In Europe, EPO's clinical trials began, and marathon runners, Nordic skiers and Dutch cyclists were getting a hold of the drug on the black market.

So, EPO emerges in California. Huge...HUGE...amounts of money at stake. Endurance sports being the second most obvious outlet market (evidenced also by the fact that Johnson and Johnson were openly advertising the product to cyclists in the early 90s), kidney and anemia patients the first.
Weisel in the centre.
Obvious links to Eddie B, Och and Testa.
Trials starting in 85, blackmarket use a year later at best.
FDA on board.

Yikes.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

In August 1988, I raced in the junior mens category of a criterium in Holland. Connie Meijer died in the womens race of cadiac failure which was attributed to a "neglected flu" or something like that. She was the bronze medalist in the World Championship Road Race in 1987.

TBH it's perfectly possible that she did die of a neglected flu.

Number 1 rule for an athlete is you don't compete or train hard in the weeks after a serious respiratory infection.

Many young lives have been taken because they felt "just fine", but the inflammation had extended to their hearts.

 

[sniper]

Re:

worth having a look at this dirtyworks post again:

Which takes us back to Weisel's funding of Amgen.

http://cyclismas.com/2011/11/the-trifecta-that-shaped-u-s-cycling-in-the-armstrong-era/
1983 a small biotech firm by the name of Amgen.. Amgen co-founder George Rathmann somehow managed to secure $43 million for their IPO that was underwritten by three investment firms. ....The third company was a relatively new creation, ... Called Montgomery Securities, it was founded by a dynamic man by the name of Thomas Weisel who had developed a strong group of contacts in the San Francisco area.

A little later on, From the oft-quoted Outside article with the obligatory "insane training schedule" myth:

With advice from the legendary Eddie B., Weisel began training seriously to win a world championship in his age group. .... Between 1989 and 1991, Weisel won three masters world championships and five national titles on the road and track.
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/High-Rollers.html?page=all

Weisel is uniquely qualified to introduce EPO to athletics. Did he himself do it? We'll never know. It would not surprise me if he did.