First EPO users in the peloton?

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
Going back to a post in 2010 to support the claim about a perceived narrative. Do you have anything more recent like this decade?

that was from a one minute search, all the time i'm gonna spend on this issue, if you don't mind. I'm sure if you'd take another five minutes yourself, you'd find more references, such as Lemond's very own "and of course drugs came on the scene in the early 90s".

Btw, it might be from 2010 but i've never seen or heard Race Radio backtrack from that, so i can only assume it's still his narrative.

Race Radio is still active here?

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
Going back to a post in 2010 to support the claim about a perceived narrative. Do you have anything more recent like this decade?

that was from a one minute search, all the time i'm gonna spend on this issue, if you don't mind. I'm sure if you'd take another five minutes yourself, you'd find more references, such as Lemond's very own "and of course drugs came on the scene in the early 90s".

Btw, it might be from 2010 but i've never seen or heard Race Radio backtrack from that, so i can only assume it's still his narrative.

So your one minute search only revealed a post from 2010. I am pretty sure that if you had found something more recent you would have quoted it. The fact you didn't speaks volumes whether this narrative actually currently exists.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re:

That interview also shows how the logic of hormone rebalancing seems to lead inexorably to blood doping. Here's Hinault on that subject: "[Francesco] Moser made use of auto-transfusion. So he was playing with his own blood. He did no more no less that the Finnish athletes, Lasse Viren and the others. It suffices to take some of one's own blood during the spring when it is rich, hyper-oxygenated, and to re-inject it when one is fatigued. Is that really doping? Maybe not, except if the blood is placed into a machine to re-oxygenate it to the maximum."

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/2/23/2010343/LeMaillotJauneBlanchi

Don't worry. Even though LeMond was on a team with teammates who thought blooding doping was fine, he did not see a thing.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Please provide links to people stating that EPO was introduced post '91 or even '93 or retract. I think THE narrative has Slaats been that the seachange visible post '91. You are using a strawman.

I said,

Hopefully this will put to bed the false narrative that says EPO made its first appearances in the peloton in 91.

And you say there is no such narrative? Okay. I'll accept that and retract. I guess we don't need to put it to bed after all.

Edit: Your assertion that I am "using a strawman", along with other things you've said recently elsewhere, would indicate that you see our mutual participation here as adversarial. I don't see it that way. I'm here to exchange information and have fun (along with moderating the forum to help it run smoothly for all). I really don't see any reason for us to be adversaries (or to to be adversaries with anyone else here, for that matter).

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-06-24/sports/9106240140_1_repo-endurance-athletes-elite-athletes

''Doctors say an athlete would need only three doses a week for three weeks before competition to improve his performance significantly. Because the drug is sold legally only through the proper medical channels, athletes in the United States must go through the black market to obtain it. It is more easily obtained in Europe and Mexico, Snell said. Cost is estimated at $40 per normal dose.''

How about that for very expensive dopings...

Also from the article:

Although rEPO did not become commercially available until 1989, some physicians believe that European athletes have been using it since 1986, when clinical trials of the drug began. Five Dutch cyclists died mysteriously in 1987. Those were followed by three deaths in 1988, five in 1989 and five in 1990.

I guess my thinking on it is this. If low level self-experimenters were able to get their hands on the stuff in 86, when clinical trials began, could we expect that the elite of the cycling world - people with big budgets and big connections - would actually be behind the curve on it? Aren't they generally ahead of the curve on things? And, no, I'm not referring to LeMond, necessarily, I'm referring to leading riders and teams in Europe.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

Please provide links to people stating that EPO was introduced post '91 or even '93 or retract. I think THE narrative has Slaats been that the seachange visible post '91. You are using a strawman.

I said,

Hopefully this will put to bed the false narrative that says EPO made its first appearances in the peloton in 91.

And you say there is no such narrative? Okay. I'll accept that and retract. I guess we don't need to put it to bed after all.

So noted and genuinely appreciated.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-06-24/sports/9106240140_1_repo-endurance-athletes-elite-athletes

''Doctors say an athlete would need only three doses a week for three weeks before competition to improve his performance significantly. Because the drug is sold legally only through the proper medical channels, athletes in the United States must go through the black market to obtain it. It is more easily obtained in Europe and Mexico, Snell said. Cost is estimated at $40 per normal dose.''

How about that for very expensive dopings...

Also from the article:

Although rEPO did not become commercially available until 1989, some physicians believe that European athletes have been using it since 1986, when clinical trials of the drug began. Five Dutch cyclists died mysteriously in 1987. Those were followed by three deaths in 1988, five in 1989 and five in 1990.

I guess my thinking on it is this. If low level self-experimenters were able to get their hands on the stuff in 86, when clinical trials began, could we expect that the elite of the cycling world - people with big budgets and big connections - would actually be behind the curve on it? Aren't they generally ahead of the curve on things? And, no, I'm not referring to LeMond, necessarily, I'm referring to leading riders and teams in Europe.

I don't know how old you are but I get the impression you are grocely over-appreciating the organisatial structure of most teams in the 80's. This was a time people were putting their faith in "pot belge" no less.

 

[Cannibal72]

I was always rather under the impression the poor Dutch/Belgian sacrificial lambs were not self-experimenters but something more akin to guinea pigs, but that's just a personal opinion with no facts to back it up.

 

[djpbaltimore]

I also wonder whether the doping elite would change their program before actually seeing evidence that their current program was becoming obsolete. Athletes are often creatures of habit. Especially if there was an active grapevine, where it might've been clear (even before Draaijer) that accidents with this method were potentially fatal.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

....this from a fairly reliable source and one fairly closely situated to this forum....kinda odd that RR didn't mention 1989 but something further up the road isn't it...and this from a guy who sold himself as the knower of all things cycling.... anybody got any guesses why ? ....Race Radio's narrative indeed !....

Steven Rooks, runner-up to Pedro Delgado at the 1988 Tour de France, has admitted using to prohibited blood booster EPO during his career. He said that he used EPO after 1989 in a book entitled "Het laatste geel" [The last yellow - ed.] published this week by Dutch journalist Marc Smeets.

"Yes, I've taken EPO. It was necessary to finish high up in the classification," Rooks said.

The Dutchman won the mountains jersey, finished second overall and won stage 12 to L'Alpe d'Huez at the 1988 Tour. In 1989, he came seventh in the overall classification and won another mountain stage.

Rooks' other career highlights include Liège-Bastogne-Liège in 1983 and the Amstel Gold Race in 1986. From 1986 to 1989, he rode for the PDM team, later for Panasonic, Buckler, Festina and TVM.

Two other former riders of the same generation, fellow Dutch men Gert Jakobs and Matthieu Hermans, have also admitted using the drug. Hermans also won a stage in the 1989 Tour, stage 11 from Luchon to Blagnac, and ten stages of the Vuelta a España

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rooks-admits-to-epo-use/

Cheers

I asked this before of sniper but of course was ignored. What is the full context of that conversation? "After 1989" is a strange turn of phrase. Surely it would be "I started in 90" or "from 89" or " tried it in 90".

To me anyway, "after 89" means any point between 89 and when Rooks retired. I think it was an answer to a direct question like, did you start taking EPO whilst at PDM? No it was after 89(when he left PDM)

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

...
Please provide links to people stating that EPO was introduced post '91 or even '93 or retract. I think THE narrative has Slaats been that the seachange visible post '91. You are using a strawman.

This was Race Radio's 'narrative':

...
Rooks writes in his book that he first got a hold of EPO in late 1991. There was talk of a small group of Dutch Amateurs who supposedly got some in 1990. Some died but the real details of this are limited and seem to change as we get father from the time.

1994 was the year that it became fairly widely used and by 1996 it was mandatory.

That was not a narrative by Race Radio, that was a direct answer to someone who suggested Rooks and Theunisse were the first EPO users in 88. Has anyone actually read Rooks book or does he even have a book? Not sure why RR would say late 91 if he was trying EPO blame it on the decline of LeMond at the Tour in 91 as people are suggesting the supposed narrative is.

The narrative of EPO moving from individuals to becoming widespread in 94-96 is a narrative presented by the many accounts of riders/managers/soigneurs from that time. It was not Race Radios narrative.

 

[GuyIncognito]

I don't know when Rooks started taking EPO, but it's obvious to me why he would claim it was only in late 91.
He's trying to pretend the intralipid affair wasn't EPO

 

[sniper]

Re:

I don't know when Rooks started taking EPO, but it's obvious to me why he would claim it was only in late 91.
He's trying to pretend the intralipid affair wasn't EPO

bingo.

guyincognito, i asked you a question upthread re: Lemond investing in Montgomery Securities.
Had you heard about that before?
If so, any ideas on the time line of that investment?


edit: maybe no bingo after all, but was a good thought nonetheless

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

I don't know when Rooks started taking EPO, but it's obvious to me why he would claim it was only in late 91.
He's trying to pretend the intralipid affair wasn't EPO

Rooks wasn't at PDM in 91 so had nothing to do with him.

 

[jmdirt]

If I remember the 'story', EPO was injected into cycling by Nordic skiers who raced on amateur cycling clubs for off-season training. I would guess that the first big fish was in the late '80s.

 

[GJB123]

Re:

I don't know when Rooks started taking EPO, but it's obvious to me why he would claim it was only in late 91.
He's trying to pretend the intralipid affair wasn't EPO

BINGO!

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...Has anyone actually read Rooks book or does he even have a book?

If you think it contains passages that are worth highlighting (either as context, or in support of one or the other viewpoint), please do. I'd be very interested. Maybe even in a separate thread, so that we have a frame of reference. Information like that, if posted in a thread like this, tends to get snowed under quickly.

The narrative of EPO moving from individuals to becoming widespread in 94-96 is a narrative presented by the many accounts of riders/managers/soigneurs from that time. It was not Race Radios narrative.

I'm glad you point out that it was indeed a wider narrative, not restricted to one or two posters.
But RR presented it as fact, didn't question it. So it was his narrative, too.
Either way, it's good that that narrative has been put to bed.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...
Please provide links to people stating that EPO was introduced post '91 or even '93 or retract. I think THE narrative has Slaats been that the seachange visible post '91. You are using a strawman.

This was Race Radio's 'narrative':

...
Rooks writes in his book that he first got a hold of EPO in late 1991. There was talk of a small group of Dutch Amateurs who supposedly got some in 1990. Some died but the real details of this are limited and seem to change as we get father from the time.

1994 was the year that it became fairly widely used and by 1996 it was mandatory.

That was not a narrative by Race Radio, that was a direct answer to someone who suggested Rooks and Theunisse were the first EPO users in 88. Has anyone actually read Rooks book or does he even have a book? Not sure why RR would say late 91 if he was trying EPO blame it on the decline of LeMond at the Tour in 91 as people are suggesting the supposed narrative is.

The narrative of EPO moving from individuals to becoming widespread in 94-96 is a narrative presented by the many accounts of riders/managers/soigneurs from that time. It was not Race Radios narrative.

in terms of narrative then whatever individuals were up to, it was difficult to 'see'...in terms of what we could see it was a plethora of hitherto unknown italians, Once and their 'active rest', and culminating in Ferrari's Gewiss squad...

what I don't think we saw (he said 26 years after the event) is sudden and strange results in period 86-89...racing looked much like racing...the change was noticeable from 91...even if you weren't looking

 

[staubsauger]

Rooks and Hermans never reached their performance level of 88 / 89 again. Hermans admitted EPO use in 89. Of course they were using it in 88 already. They must've been on something new big juice to archive that level.

It was available and used in the Netherlands already. Bertje Oosterbosch died in 89 apparently from the usage of Epo, Draaijer in 90. Maybe because PDM went over the top without knowledge after the Italians perfectionized the dosage?

Rooks & Hermans are probably lucky to be alive. The big miracle remains Breukink. We know when he left the party but we ain't got no clue when he joined.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Rooks and Hermans never reached their performance level of 88 / 89 again. Hermans admitted EPO use in 89. Of course they were using it in 88 already. They must've been on something new big juice to archive that level.

It was available and used in the Netherlands already. Bertje Oosterbosch died in 89 apparently from the usage of Epo, Draaijer in 90. Maybe because PDM went over the top without knowledge after the Italians perfectionized the dosage?

Rooks & Hermans are probably lucky to be alive. The big miracle remains Breukink. We know when he left the party but we ain't got no clue when he joined.

Good post, and it's my intuition, too, that EPO was used in the Netherlands and Belgium already in 88.

In addition to the things you mention, there are (/has been) serious speculation about both Van Gennep (iceskating, 3 Olympic golds) and Connie Meyer (cycling) using EPO in 88.
None of that proven, but imo a good possibility that must be taken seriously.

For Belgium, there is e.g. Planckaert and Demol excelling in 88 under Vanmol, a year in which Vanmol said some of his riders suffered anemia and he was importing "Italian energy-preparates" to help his riders.

Good point re Breukink. My guess would be 88, too.
Like Hampsten.
I admit that for both of them old school blood transfusions and a good mix of regular PEDs might be enough to explain their performances.
The reason I am nonethelss thinking EPO is that I don't have an aswer to the question: why *not* EPO?
It was not on the banned list (unlike transfusions), and it had serious (mainly practical) advantages over blood transfusions.
(provided of course that it was available to them. I think it was, but I realize that that's not a settled matter)

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Please provide links to people stating that EPO was introduced post '91 or even '93 or retract. I think THE narrative has Slaats been that the seachange visible post '91. You are using a strawman.

I said,

Hopefully this will put to bed the false narrative that says EPO made its first appearances in the peloton in 91.

And you say there is no such narrative? Okay. I'll accept that and retract. I guess we don't need to put it to bed after all.

Edit: Your assertion that I am "using a strawman", along with other things you've said recently elsewhere, would indicate that you see our mutual participation here as adversarial. I don't see it that way. I'm here to exchange information and have fun (along with moderating the forum to help it run smoothly for all). I really don't see any reason for us to be adversaries (or to to be adversaries with anyone else here, for that matter).

Am I missing something? The NYTimes article that was linked said.
"Physicians say they believe athletes began using the drug almost with the beginning of clinical trials in 1986. Then the deaths began. In 1987 five Dutch racers died suddenly. In 1988 a Belgian and two more Dutch riders died. In 1989 five more Dutch riders died, and last year three Belgians and two Dutch riders died. Transfusions of Extra Blood"

The NYT article is no good?

Maybe there is 2 things being discussed here. Has someone said LeMond was the first user of EPO? I went back and read the thread and it is obvious that the only reason the argument that EPO was not being used by cyclist as far back as 86-88 is because of another thread. Hopeless.

 

[Echoes]

Rooks discovered EPO in 1991. I question the Hermans admition. To me it seems like a bad transcription by journos. Rooks & Hermans admitted to EPO use in one TV show, if I'm not mistaken but Rooks clearly said after 1989. But of course he raced in Spain back then.

Draaijers died in Feb. 1990. In my opinion that's where it all started for PDM. When Dhaenens became a great classic rider and Breukink, a GT rider (Breukink raced for Panasonic before 1990! Winnen claimed he had a good reputation and that he clearly stopped after the Intralipid Affair. It's of course his own opinion), Kelly rediscovering he was a great stage racer, etc. That year, Rooks had left PDM. Too bad for him, performance-wise. His EPO discovery seem to fit with his come back in Stuttgart (Worlds 1991) but of course for those who only care for GT's, this could be hilarious but it all fits in.

I can't see any record of EPO in the Low Countries until late 1989. It all started in 1990. They had other dope (roids, testosterone, ...) but as far as I know for sure, no EPO. The link between Oosterbosch's death and EPO is not backed up by evidence at all.

Eddy Planckaert admitted to EPO discovery in 1991, his final year when he was suffering from back ailment. Of course, it arranges him to say that, he did nothing great that year but a top10 place in Milan-Sanremo. However, by 1990 he went to a hospital in Montreux and was injected animal foetus extracts. http://hetiskoers.nl/eddy-planckaert-en-de-lammerenkuur/

I've re-watched the 1990 Paris-Roubaix several time. You could see Steve Bauer attacking on the Carrefour de l'Arbre. Planckaert reacted, hands on the top of the bars, casual, soft-pedalling (at 1:05'30). For sure it raises questions.

Of course, the ADR team is a mystery of its own, if only in terms of finances, businessman François Lambert, went bankrupt, riders' salaries unpaid (Roland Liboton has never been paid in his ADR years) but there's no evidence that they ever took EPO. Other dope, probably but EPO, you're gonna have to prove it. Planckaert was shining in 1988 because he finally gained leader status. In his Panasonic years, Post made him a domestique for Vanderaerden despite the fact that he was reputedly faster in a sprint and could be as good on classics on a good day. Post liked Vanderaerden because he was a rouleur, which Planckaert wasn't.

 

[Maxiton]

Let's keep LeMond discussion in the LeMond thread (when it re-opens) and the Sidebar thread.

 

[Echoes]

My last post was not predominantly about LeMond.

Besides, if we think that he was one of the first EPO user in the peloton, it has a place here.

Damn, it took me time to write that post.

 

[Maxiton]

My last post was not predominantly about LeMond.

Besides, if we think that he was one of the first EPO user in the peloton, it has a place here.

Damn, it took me time to write that post.

It's in the Sidebar thread.

If you want to take out the LeMond references and re-post it here, I encourage that.