First EPO users in the peloton?

[jens_attacks]

Re: Re:

Did Fignon admit to blood doping or talk about his Conconi connection?
If not then you cannot take his admissions too serious.

True. I can't imagine he'd say yes to one injection and no to another.

Not really
Fignon says in his book that he was shiit scared to mess with his blood. Maybe if he was younger but he achieved a lot by then so he didn't take that risk.
Some people were frivhtened by epo and that'd why they refused, not because of ethics. There were rumours in the peloton that with epo you die in a few years. If only they knew...

 

[sniper]

For many who were frightened to mess with their blood, EPO would have been exactly the kind of thing they'd been waiting for.
No more messing around with blood bags.

EPO was such a success: not because the effects are that much better than old school transfusions (in fact there are studies suggesting they're roughly equally effective in terms of boosting hematocrit), but because it was so much more practical.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17460263.2011.555208

 

[sniper]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17460263.2011.555208

Interesting piece.

The author makes some blatantly premature assumptions, however, which is ironic, because that's what he accuses others of doing throughout the article.

Big fail here, for instance, when he simply discards another four riders as possible EPO victims, because they

... died between October and February in the cycling off-season, when there was no point in charging up with such an expensive, cutting-edge drug.

another fail here:

Of the remaining 9, 7 were amateur riders, who for the reasons just stated would be very unlikely consumers of the drug.

Halupczok was suspected to have been on EPO in 89. Halupczok was an amateur.

Probably the biggest fail is that he discards riders with little money as possible EPO users:

1 lowprofile young professional (only 23 when he died) and a cyclo-cross rider,
neither of them the kind of usual suspect for such a hi-tech practice as EPO doping would have been at the time.

I mean, the whole frigging point is that if there were any EPO deaths, these were probably among cyclists with not enough money to afford the proper medical guidance.

 

[Hawkwood]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17460263.2011.555208

Interesting piece.

The author makes some blatantly premature assumptions, however, which is ironic, because that's what he accuses others of doing throughout the article.

Big fail here, for instance, when he simply discards another four riders as possible EPO victims, because they

... died between October and February in the cycling off-season, when there was no point in charging up with such an expensive, cutting-edge drug.

another fail here:

Of the remaining 9, 7 were amateur riders, who for the reasons just stated would be very unlikely consumers of the drug.

Halupczok was suspected to have been on EPO in 89. Halupczok was an amateur.

Probably the biggest fail is that he discards riders with little money as possible EPO users:

1 lowprofile young professional (only 23 when he died) and a cyclo-cross rider,
neither of them the kind of usual suspect for such a hi-tech practice as EPO doping would have been at the time.

I mean, the whole frigging point is that if there were any EPO deaths, these were probably among cyclists with not enough money to afford the proper medical guidance.

So what evidence is there that the four pros and seven amateur riders died due to EPO?

 

[sniper]

there probably is no hard evidence (except for the 'timing' argument, and some other more circumstantial stuff such as Draaijer's wife saying he used EPO, which, btw, she denied in another interview).
And the author is correct to point that out.
But the fact that there is no hard evidence doesn't mean epo wasn't involved.
Yet that's the conclusion the author seems to draw for most of those athletes, a conclusion based largely on unnecessary assumptions.

 

[Hawkwood]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17460263.2011.555208

Good find, a very interesting article.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

there probably is no hard evidence (except for the 'timing' argument, and some other more circumstantial stuff such as Draaijer's wife saying he used EPO, which, btw, she denied in another interview).
And the author is correct to point that out.
But the fact that there is no hard evidence doesn't mean epo wasn't involved.
Yet that's the conclusion the author seems to draw for most of those athletes, a conclusion based largely on unnecessary assumptions.

In his conclusion he does state `...there is very little, if any, scientific evidence that EPO causes sudden death.'

 

[sniper]

yes, and I agree with that.
I disagree with the reasons he puts forth for discarding some of those victims as possible EPO victims.

The whole point is that if there were EPO deaths, this is likely to have concerned riders with comparatively little financial means, rather than cyclists with big budgets. And the off-season argument, I mean...

Also, he discards victims as EPO-victims because they died when they had already retired. But that argument only holds if EPO has no long-lasting effects on the heart. Which...we don't know.

 

[Tienus]

EPO could not be detected at the time so there is no hard evidence.

...there is very little, if any, scientific evidence that EPO causes sudden death.

This is not true.

I dont think the riders in the tour where taking their bikes to the room and ride the rollers for fun in the middle of the night.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Good find, a very interesting article.

It isnt a find, actually. It is one of the - many - sources stating the 20 EPO Deaths are a myth.

In his conclusion he does state `...there is very little, if any, scientific evidence that EPO causes sudden death.'

This is what il mito said too after la Fleche 1994...

 

[sniper]

It isnt a find, actually. It is one of the - many - sources stating the 20 EPO Deaths are a myth.

and it probably is a myth, or at least a hugely exaggerated figure.

the interesting question though is: where did the myth come from?
One potential, and imo pretty straightforward, explanation is that EPO was in reality quite widespread in endurance sports already in the period between 87-90, much more widespread than some observers and some cyclists have admitted (or been willing to admit). Its use was probably rumored about all over the place, and so it would quickly be linked to those deaths (whether correctly or not).
Also, in 1988:
- FIS bans EPO,
- Winnen says he heard rumors of EPO
- Les Earnest wrote a letter to USOC warning them about EPO
- EPO tests are being carried out in Ferrara (Italy) and Calgary (Canada)
That's all in 1988.
Let's not get started about 1989.
And about 1990, Sturgess says EPO had been around "for ages".

Yet there is one rider of the day who somehow managed to miss all that, allegedly being unaware of EPO until some ONCE rider told him about it in 1993, even though his name appeared in the newspaper in 1990 linking him directly to the introduction of EPO, and even though he invested in a company called Montgomery Securities, renowned for taking public Amgen and having a direct stake in the commercialization of EPO.

 

[Tienus]

In 1988 there was also the David Jenkins interview in sport international. He was interviewed by Kees Koomen.

Its mentioned in this article:
http://vorige.nrc.nl//sport/article2287930.ece/Eind_dopestrijd_niet_in_zicht
'
It was also mentioned in the book:
Wie gelooft die renners nog?
by Hans Vandeweghe

 

[sniper]

Re:

In 1988 there was also the David Jenkins interview in sport international. He was interviewed by Kees Koomen.

Its mentioned in this article:
http://vorige.nrc.nl//sport/article2287930.ece/Eind_dopestrijd_niet_in_zicht
'
It was also mentioned in the book:
Wie gelooft die renners nog?
by Hans Vandeweghe

Thanks for the reference to Jenkins, a former British Olympic athlete who ran a drug ring in the US in the 80s and got sentenced to jail for that.
In the interview you refer to he says that EPO was used in athletics already in 1986.
http://www.nrc.nl/handelsblad/2013/01/17/hoe-een-medicijn-het-wielrennen-ziek-maakte-1198148

 

[Maxiton]

Sniper, perhaps it would be good if you have time to translate the relevant bits of such interviews, so that you can post them with the link.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Sniper, perhaps it would be good if you have time to translate the relevant bits of such interviews, so that you can post them with the link.

that Dutch link merely paraphrases the original interview, which I haven't found (yet).
But I'll translate this bit from Peter Winnen (an opinion piece called "Everybody, let's hide behind omerta"), which includes a reference to Jenkins:
http://www.nrc.nl/handelsblad/2012/10/13/met-zn-allen-schuilen-achter-de-omerta-1164454

Peter Winnen
When did epo appear in the peloton? Opinions are different. Some say it was 1993. I myself I believe it was 1988. That was the first year that I got dropped in the mountains by a bunch of non-climbers. During a particular conversation with a colleague, I was told 'what time it was'. It is not difficult to add 1+1. And suddenly I remembered an interview with former British athlete David Jenkins in Sport International, a year before that. Jenkins had been exposed as a PED dealer, had been caught at the American-Mexican border en had been put to jail for a while. On the request of the interviewer, Jenkins mentioned 15 kinds of the most effective PEDs that were not traceable at the time, and EPO was one of them. That product had only been on the market for a year.

 

[Tienus]

I could not find that magazine online but it looks like the KB library in The Hague has a hardcopy.
http://opc4.kb.nl/DB=1/PPN?PPN=840971818

 

[djpbaltimore]

It's not impossible that non-US EPO turned out to be (much) more risky health-wise.
Add to that the fact that there were controlled clinical trials in the US whereas in Europe the 'testing' of EPO was done in uncontrolled settings...directly on athletes.

Just saying, merely looking at (alleged) EPO-deaths is not gonna tell us the whole story of early users.
My money is still on the 1990 whistleblower simply speaking the truth.

The testing in Europe was also done in controlled clinical trials. But by Roche instead of Amgen. Beta was ultimately approved for use in Europe for the same type of patients as the alfa was used for in the USA. There is no indication that alfa and beta had different inherent health risks. Like all drugs, if you take it in amounts beyond the prescribed doses, there are likely going to be side-effects, even potentially lethal ones.

 

[sniper]

Re:

one of several older posts that deserve to be bumped in the context of the current discussion:

Rob J. Pluijmers, a sportsmedicine doctor involved with Dutch cyclists for 15 years, admitted last week in Salt Lake City that he knows three professionals taking EPO, a recombinant hormone used to treat anemia. He refused to name the athletes, but this is the first official acknowledgement that athletes are using the drug.

Pluijmers, however, denied that any of the 15 deaths could be attributed to erythropoietin.

"There is no reason to think EPO use is involved," said Pluijmers who was visiting the United States to speak to colleagues at the American College of Sports Medicine.

Pluijmers said the cyclists he knows using the drug are from the Netherlands and Belgium. He said the three got the drug from sources in Belgium. One athlete, he said, was taking the drug to treat a medical problem, but the others were using it to enhance performance.

EPO is not yet registered in the Netherlands, although it is widely approved throughout Europe. The Food and Drug Administration approved its use in the United States last June. Amgen, a Thousand Oaks firm, developed the drug here.

Three years ago [that would be 1987; sniper], physicians and pharmacologists stated their concerns about the abuse of erythropoietin among athletes such as cyclists and distance runners who would benefit from blood doping.

In October of 1989, Dr. Bjorn Ekblom of Stockholm's Institute of Gymnastics and Sport, reported that eight Swedish athletes increased their endurance by 10% after using erythropoietin during a study.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-02/sports/sp-143_1_performance-enhancing-drug

 

[sniper]

...
The testing in Europe was also done in controlled clinical trials. But by Roche instead of Amgen. Beta was ultimately approved for use in Europe for the same type of patients as the alfa was used for in the USA. There is no indication that alfa and beta had different inherent health risks. Like all drugs, if you take it in amounts beyond the prescribed doses, there are likely going to be side-effects, even potentially lethal ones.

thanks, good points.

This older post elaborates on the point I was making:

(...)
In the mid '80 I and several of my friends looked closely at investing in Amgen. At that time, the biggest concern regarding EPO (which was one of 5 promising developments at Amgen) was the prospect that a rival company would develop a similar oxygen vector which wouldn't be covered by the Amgen patent. Recall that EPO itself is a naturally occurring substance, and isn't patentable. The process to make recombinant EPO is. Amgen had a US competitor with a plausible claim to the patent, and it was generally believed that several European companies had substantial R&D efforts. Furthermore, it was believed that the European companies were using athletes to evaluate the efficacy of their potential products. Amgen didn't need to do this, because they already had trials in process, whereas the European companies needed to avoid public disclosure--otherwise they could expect lawsuits from Amgen. Amgen of course knew that these irregular trials were going on, but as long as the info wasn't public, they couldn't practically go after the European companies.

At least that's what we believed at the time, but it was a pretty widespread belief. It raises the interesting possibility that riders were using EPO-like drugs during say '85-'87, but which were less effective than Epogen. The when Epogen became legally available, they may have believed that ever larger doses would be better, and folks started dying.

 

[djpbaltimore]

First paragraph is interesting if based in fact. The latter part of the second paragraph is dubious IMO. Regulatory approval would've meant increased production. That means better black market availability, allowing for people to push the limits. Recombinant EPO is not a difficult protein to express, I don't think EPOGEN would be inherently 'better' than early generation European drugs.

 

[blackcat]

allegedly being unaware of EPO

acto... acto... acto... acto-wut?

actovegin you idiot Lance, like those empty apoules of insulin and actovegin in the USPS trash

 

[blutto]

Re:

First paragraph is interesting if based in fact. The latter part of the second paragraph is dubious IMO. Regulatory approval would've meant increased production. That means better black market availability, allowing for people to push the limits. Recombinant EPO is not a difficult protein to express, I don't think EPOGEN would be inherently 'better' than early generation European drugs.

...hmmm....I beg to differ and here is why...we had a somewhat similar problem, we had a product that would be a world beater and that could be protected by patenting the process that would make the key component for the product...being first to the race we patented the best process ( patents are a balancing act btw being broad enough to adequately cover your idea but not to overreach ...a clean accurate surgical strike that nails the target is the ideal...)...so the product is introduced and its a winner....and immediately we get competition but the processes they use are not as good as ours and we win...

...so it could well be that Amgen for whatever reason ( either its more cost effective to manufacture or that drug formulation is more efficient) patented the best process...if they hadn't their patent people would have to be incompetent/negligent ( its a pretty basic patent strategy so if you mess up on this one become a janitor or something )...

...just sayin' eh...

Cheers

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

I am tending to annoyance no one on this board has been able to astablish a very close link between the introduction of rEPO and Switzerland.

People, almost everything is on Dopeology. EPO was easier than blood transfusions. I have an interview somewhere with Conconi stating il Mito 'gone rogue'. Join dots.

Instead of stating guys like Hampsten were blood transfusing - the logistics in the eighties were not sufficient for that I can assure you - look better.

 

[Dr.Guess]

FGL, you should read the US cycling in the 70s and 80s- thread.