First EPO users in the peloton?

[kingjr]

I thought the quote was from Herrera? Years ago, in a German cycling forum, a user used that quote as his signature and I'm very sure it said Luis Herrera after it.


That being said, i don't see how this quote could possibly refer to LeMond, when Herrera was at his best LeMond had already won a Tour and podiumed at another. Makes no sense.

 

[sniper]

Yes it was Herrera.
If GJB doesn't like the quote or the fact that Lemond fits the description better than most, he'll have to take it up with Herrera.

 

[kingjr]

He doesn't fit the description.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Greg's BMI in 1990 was higher than indurain's.
If Lemond doesn't fit the description nobody does.
Take it up with Herrera and tell him his much appraised quote is, on second thought, useless.

 

[kingjr]

No, I would do the obvious thing and ask him whether he had LeMond in mind when he said that.

What was LeMond's BMI at the Tour 1990 for example if I may ask?

 

[sniper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gniz8CtxHas

 

[kingjr]

Relevance?

 

[blutto]

Re:

No, I would do the obvious thing and ask him whether he had LeMond in mind when he said that.

What was LeMond's BMI at the Tour 1990 for example if I may ask?

....there was a great line from Sean Kelly during that period about the whining that LeMond was routinely emitting.....

....this roughly paraphrased.... " Greg's biggest problem is there isn't a hamburger that he has ever met that he doesn't like..."....read he was a whale and was being dropped because of it....

....there were some other zingers from Roche and Fignon about LeMond's whining during that same period that made it into the "English speakers" press....quite sure there was more such comments in the European press which would not have been as kind to outsiders ( the press in those days really played up to the home team and against everyone else )...

Cheers

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

"when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew."

As in a not very skinny Lemond and a not so tiny Indurain dropping Chiapucci and all other mountain specialists in stage 16 of the 1990 tdf?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

Again you show that you have no idea of how 80's GT-riders looked. They were never as anorexic as they are now. Hinault and Fignon for example, were not really skinny by modern standards, same for LeMond (get the spelling right for once). Also you don't seem to understand that Hamilton was not referring to LeMond-type GT-riders but to big Italian rouleurs and domestiques for flat stages suddenly climbing like there was no tomorrow. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good troll.

Apparently this was missed. Re-posting in the hopes it will stick.

I'll not hold my breath.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

"when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew."

As in a not very skinny Lemond and a not so tiny Indurain dropping Chiapucci and all other mountain specialists in stage 16 of the 1990 tdf?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

Again you show that you have no idea of how 80's GT-riders looked. They were never as anorexic as they are now. Hinault and Fignon for example, were not really skinny by modern standards, same for LeMond (get the spelling right for once). Also you don't seem to understand that Hamilton was not referring to LeMond-type GT-riders but to big Italian rouleurs and domestiques for flat stages suddenly climbing like there was no tomorrow. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good troll.

Apparently this was missed. Re-posting in the hopes it will stick.

I'll not hold my breath.

indeed...and the fact he had already won the race (TdF)...and performed in the mountains...the quote which variations have been said by a number of riders meant guys who...eh...never used to win....

if anyone thinks that is LeMond they are presenting what we now know are 'alternative facts'

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

....there was a great line from Sean Kelly during that period about the whining that LeMond was routinely emitting.....

....this roughly paraphrased.... " Greg's biggest problem is there isn't a hamburger that he has ever met that he doesn't like..."....read he was a whale and was being dropped because of it....

....there were some other zingers from Roche and Fignon about LeMond's whining during that same period that made it into the "English speakers" press....quite sure there was more such comments in the European press which would not have been as kind to outsiders ( the press in those days really played up to the home team and against everyone else )...

Cheers

Frank Hoste recalling 1989 Giro d'Italia: "Lemond was dropping on the first cols and what did he do? In the evening he ate a hamburger. That was too much for us."
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/1325eitd
It's a pity the rest is behind paywall. "Lemond's hamburger" it's called.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

...

....there was a great line from Sean Kelly during that period about the whining that LeMond was routinely emitting.....

....this roughly paraphrased.... " Greg's biggest problem is there isn't a hamburger that he has ever met that he doesn't like..."....read he was a whale and was being dropped because of it....

....there were some other zingers from Roche and Fignon about LeMond's whining during that same period that made it into the "English speakers" press....quite sure there was more such comments in the European press which would not have been as kind to outsiders ( the press in those days really played up to the home team and against everyone else )...

Cheers

Frank Hoste recalling 1989 Giro d'Italia: "Lemond was dropping on the first cols and what did he do? In the evening he ate a hamburger. That was too much for us."
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/1325eitd
It's a pity the rest is behind paywall. "Lemond's hamburger" it's called.

yup...he was renowned for it...he was also renowned for...let's see being world champ, winning the podiuming in grand tours, winning the Avenir, being up there in all the big one day classics.....nearly a decade before...

although I can sense a new one coming on....LeMond surreptitiously took on blood via rare hamburgers - O2 vector doping old school style...you heard it here first

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

"when I saw riders with fat asses climbing like airplanes, that's when I knew."

As in a not very skinny Lemond and a not so tiny Indurain dropping Chiapucci and all other mountain specialists in stage 16 of the 1990 tdf?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

Herrera barely competed against LeMond in the 90s so the chances that he is referring to LeMond are null. Doubly so when you consider LeMond was beating Herrera in mountain stages as far back as 86. Superbagneres.

Herrera was not even at the 1990 Tour(team not selected) and apart from the 91 Tour, I cannot think of another race where they competed against each other in the 90s. Herrera was usually on the Vuelta, Dauphine schedule whilst LeMond was Du Pont, Giro, Switzerland schedule. Then in 92, Herrera did the Giro whilst LeMond did the Dauphine.

Chances that Herrera was referring to LeMond. Zero.
Chances that this is trolling..........again. 100%

 

[sniper]

Fair point.
But this is the early 90s, not the early 80s, and so I'm quite confident Herrera had a television :lol: allowing him to watch the 1990 Tour and seeing a slightly overweight Greg and a huge Miguel (or "Mig-hell", as some Lemond fans prefer to call him) going up that mountain 'like airplanes' , dropping more genuine lightweight climbers like Chiapucci and Claveryolat in the process.
But if you have other candidates in mind as to whom Herrera may have been referring to, I'm all ear.

 

[GJB123]

The problem is that by his own standards LeMond wasn't overweight at all in 1990. As said before he was never a super skinny dude like we are used to now. You keep looking at the 80's with 2016-2017 standards and that sets you up for epic failure immediately.

Also could you please provide a reference as to when Herrera allegedly made that statement? Was it in 1990 or was it much earlier? This is an honest question BTW as I couldn't find the quote anywhere (which was also the reason I ascribed it to Hamilton who made similar statement in his book).

PS Why the snide "Mig-hell" remark to one particular (self confessed) LeMond-fan? What does this add to the discussion other than to flame or troll? I fail to see the use of the remark.

 

[sniper]

Re:

So which other candidates do you have in mind for the "fat asses going up mountains like airplanes" in the early 90s?
I've asked this three times already. If not Lemond/Indurain, then who?
Not sure why this question is being avoided.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

So which other candidates do you have in mind?

It was a general comment about non-climbers and domestique so all of a sudden keeping up with or dropping champions in the mountains. It was a comment about EPO, not any specific rider.

 

[sniper]

That's certainly fair enough, Red.

We can agree on that and (speaking for myself) move on from this.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

That's certainly fair enough, Red.

We can agree on that and (speaking for myself) move on from this.

well chiapucci was one....although note you have described as a lightweight climber...he was climber but he was not lightweight.....

 

[staubsauger]

Keep in mind that pre anorexia drugs (pre 2009) being a lightweight climber meant at least around 60 kilograms with a height around 1.72 meters. Like Heras and Simoni. Pantani and especially Rasmussen were some of the few superskinny guys. It wasn't until IGF-1 became easily detectable and extreme carb loading was disfavored by being functional anorexic thanks to AICAR cyclists became that superskinny, wasn't it!?

So imho the reference has to be skinny by 90s/00s standards. Not by now.

 

[pmcg76]

This belongs here I believe, the second in a series of articles about the 90s.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/author/robert-millar-a-peloton-at-two-speeds-and-a-new-breed-of-climbers/

TBH I usually find Robert Millar quite insightful and entertaining in his articles and was looking forward to his sardonic take on the EPO era, but I found his piece very vague and uninsightful. Also a few errors in there, it was Tour of Romandy that Rominger beat Millar, not Tour de Suisse where Luc Roosen won due to a big break success, but maybe that is splitting hairs. He also mentions Rominger as one of the guys going strong in the mountains at the 91 Tour. Well, Rominger wasnt even there due to tendinitis, 93 was the breakout Tour for Rominger.

I am also not sure why Millar was surprised that Rominger could beat him in a TT when Rominger was always a good TT rider. Pretty sure I could find examples of Rominger beating Millar in TTs long before 91. That is not defending Rominger, he did have a very good season in 91 even if he lost the Dauphine to Herrera.

In summary, Indurain, Bugno, Chiappucci, Rominger, Argentin are the guys name checked as being the suspicious performers, but I think anyone who followed cycling at that time could have told you that. Millar just confirms it.

The article is based on Millars personal experiences riding against those guys, but I am sure anyone who rode the spring classics or the Giro, maybe even the Vuelta in 1990 might have a different take on when things started to change. Still the same names mind. Was just reading back through a book about the 1990 Tour and the author was pretty confident in their assessment that Chiappucci would never come near the podium again. :lol:

Millar rode up until 95 when EPO was pretty much de-rigeur so I had expected more insight on how things changed and what happened within his teams, what was discussed, rumoured etc. Also, I must dig up the Millar verdict on Giles Delion. Back in the day, Millar was very old-school ometra so probably still a bit of a hang-over.

Edit: Yes I checked,
1987 Giro d'italia stage 13 TT Rimini-San Marino, 46KM
2nd Rominger @1.11
11th Millar @2.42

 

[Benotti69]

.....Back in the day, Millar was very old-school ometra so probably still a bit of a hang-over.

Have not seen anything to suggest Millar is still not a dyed in the wool old-school omerta who refuses to spit in the soup, but had only a sly dig at big asses climbing past him......

 

[pmcg76]

Alvaro Mejia is listed as one of those who is also going to be interviewed so hopefully Matt Rendell will have amore insightful interview.

Mejia was bigged up as the new Colombian star for the 90s and was considered more of an all-rounder than Herrera, Parra etc, but it never happened and he was left without a contract when his team Postobon pulled the plug in 1992. Motorola took him on in Spring 93 when he was badly out of shape, but he then had a fantastic Tour in 93 only to do little over the following seasons.

 

[GuyIncognito]

This belongs here I believe, the second in a series of articles about the 90s.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/author/robert-millar-a-peloton-at-two-speeds-and-a-new-breed-of-climbers/

TBH I usually find Robert Millar quite insightful and entertaining in his articles and was looking forward to his sardonic take on the EPO era, but I found his piece very vague and uninsightful. Also a few errors in there, it was Tour of Romandy that Rominger beat Millar, not Tour de Suisse where Luc Roosen won due to a big break success, but maybe that is splitting hairs. He also mentions Rominger as one of the guys going strong in the mountains at the 91 Tour. Well, Rominger wasnt even there due to tendinitis, 93 was the breakout Tour for Rominger.

I am also not sure why Millar was surprised that Rominger could beat him in a TT when Rominger was always a good TT rider. Pretty sure I could find examples of Rominger beating Millar in TTs long before 91. That is not defending Rominger, he did have a very good season in 91 even if he lost the Dauphine to Herrera.

In summary, Indurain, Bugno, Chiappucci, Rominger, Argentin are the guys name checked as being the suspicious performers, but I think anyone who followed cycling at that time could have told you that. Millar just confirms it.

The article is based on Millars personal experiences riding against those guys, but I am sure anyone who rode the spring classics or the Giro, maybe even the Vuelta in 1990 might have a different take on when things started to change. Still the same names mind. Was just reading back through a book about the 1990 Tour and the author was pretty confident in their assessment that Chiappucci would never come near the podium again. :lol:

Millar rode up until 95 when EPO was pretty much de-rigeur so I had expected more insight on how things changed and what happened within his teams, what was discussed, rumoured etc. Also, I must dig up the Millar verdict on Giles Delion. Back in the day, Millar was very old-school ometra so probably still a bit of a hang-over.

Edit: Yes I checked,
1987 Giro d'italia stage 13 TT Rimini-San Marino, 46KM
2nd Rominger @1.11
11th Millar @2.42

Exactly what I was thinking reading the article.

And he doesn't even mention the first wave of silly results. Chiapucci making a big leap in the late 89 italian races, then KOM at the Giro and 2nd in the Tour in 1990. Halupczok coming from nothing to be 4th in the Giro before suddenly retiring first from the race, then from cycling and a few years later dying of a heart attack.

And of course Bugno turning into superman in the first half of 1990

I realize the article is about 1991, but if you're going to call it the start of the change, you have to mention 1990

 

[sniper]

you have to mention 1990

you have to mention 1989 too, as we have an explicit confession from Jakobs for that year and an implicit one from Hermans (Lantern Rouge that year although he did win a stage).
Just saying, if we're strictly looking for 'first EPO users', exceptional performances are not a necessary criterion.

Chiapucci making a big leap in the late 89 italian races

Comparable to Lemond's leap in 89?
Bigger? Smaller? Honest question.