First EPO users in the peloton?

[Dr. Maserati]

Where did I suggest such a ridiculous idea?



No need to be agressive there mate

1987 Giro: Nobody. He was a neo-pro on a team with no contenders.

1988 Giro: Working for Bugno, until Bugno crashed and broke a shoulderblade.

1988 Tour: Rominger was the leader for once. In Bugno's words:



1989 Giro: Working for Bugno who was very high up on GC and would've finished on the podium if not for a major collapse on stage 21

As I said earlier - balance, it was his ear's.... fortunatley it was spotted by a Dr. Conconi.

 

[Hairy Wheels]

Where did I suggest such a ridiculous idea?



No need to be agressive there mate

1987 Giro: Nobody. He was a neo-pro on a team with no contenders.

1988 Giro: Working for Bugno, until Bugno crashed and broke a shoulderblade.

1988 Tour: Rominger was the leader for once. In Bugno's words:

1989 Giro: Working for Bugno who was very high up on GC and would've finished on the podium if not for a major collapse on stage 21

No aggression...I just thought you were crazy.

What about my idea of the drugs not working so well in the heat? Have you come across this? I know he was going alright in the GT's before EPO, but that's a long way from winning.

 

[Le breton]

Given the performance gains from using EPO apparently being of the order 5 to 10 % ( estimates vary)
Any one think of any other nominees for this dubious " trailblazer " honour?

5% is definitely on the low side, atb least for most assiduous of the abusers.

Everybody seems to agree that cross country skiers had it first in 1987.

From what I gathered, about 20 amateurs died in Belgium and the netherlands in 88 and 89 from suspected EPO use.
In other words they were the guinea pigs.
When doctors more or less had mastered the doses and "proper" techniques, pros dove in, starting mostly in 1990.
The only pros I know of who died early on and were clearly taking EPO were OOSTERBOSCH - an excellent TT racer - and Draijier ( sorry for the spelling) whose wife asked for an autopsy ( he died at age 26).
It probably took some effort to master sufficient knowledge and one can assume first tests were made on one day races.
In 1990 I was injured and could follow the Giro d'Italia much more closely than normal. It's only many years later that I understood those events that baffled me so much at the time.
When I realized what had happened in 1990 at that Giro, I started thinking about earlier events and I had some suspicions on LeMond in 89 ( after all he had been hospitalized in 1987 and I thought maybe he was given EPO at the time), but considering his current fight against doping I have to rule that out.
Then of course there is Fignon's extraordinary 1989 successes which make him a good early EPO candidate. He litterally seemed to rise from the dead that year.
Clearly if Chiappucci had known about EPO in 1990, LeMond would never have won.

Obviously all pro teams must have awakened to EPO after Bugno's 1990 victory in the Giro and there were must likely several trials made that year in a number of teams and races, including the TdF, although not as disastrous as the TDM affair of 1991!

So my vote goes to Bugno for a GT, but not ruling out Fignon in 1989. Other astonishing performances surfaced in 1987 : JF Bernard beating Herrera at the Ventoux, Roche's wins. Therefore I keep an open mind

 

[jimmypop]

In the late 80s and early 90s, before that Vuelta, he had quite a few podiums in stages of all 3 GTs. Be they time trials, breakaways and mountain stages. Not to mention stage wins.

Simply he was working for someone else the entire time, so he couldn't quite go for the GC. Which is why he eventually moved teams, and subsequently had his breakout year in 91.

Also, Federico Echave, his teammate at CLAS, once said that when Rominger joined CLAS, the team were amazed that he suffered so much from allergies yet had never done anything to treat them. He underwent treatment that year and....well, he won the Vuelta.

Ahh, I understand now. We all have pet riders, it's OK.

Rominger's association with Ferrari should be enough to at least raise your eyebrows. Coupled with the fact that Rominger continued to improve and get excellent results in an era of over-doped cyclists is nearly enough "evidence" for most of us.

 

[LKing25]

5% is definitely on the low side, atb least for most assiduous of the abusers.

Everybody seems to agree that cross country skiers had it first in 1987.

From what I gathered, about 20 amateurs died in Belgium and the netherlands in 88 and 89 from suspected EPO use.
In other words they were the guinea pigs.
When doctors more or less had mastered the doses and "proper" techniques, pros dove in, starting mostly in 1990.
The only pros I know of who died early on and were clearly taking EPO were OOSTERBOSCH - an excellent TT racer - and Draijier ( sorry for the spelling) whose wife asked for an autopsy ( he died at age 26).
It probably took some effort to master sufficient knowledge and one can assume first tests were made on one day races.
In 1990 I was injured and could follow the Giro d'Italia much more closely than normal. It's only many years later that I understood those events that baffled me so much at the time.
When I realized what had happened in 1990 at that Giro, I started thinking about earlier events and I had some suspicions on LeMond in 89 ( after all he had been hospitalized in 1987 and I thought maybe he was given EPO at the time), but considering his current fight against doping I have to rule that out.
Then of course there is Fignon's extraordinary 1989 successes which make him a good early EPO candidate. He litterally seemed to rise from the dead that year.
Clearly if Chiappucci had known about EPO in 1990, LeMond would never have won.

Obviously all pro teams must have awakened to EPO after Bugno's 1990 victory in the Giro and there were must likely several trials made that year in a number of teams and races, including the TdF, although not as disastrous as the TDM affair of 1991!

So my vote goes to Bugno for a GT, but not ruling out Fignon in 1989. Other astonishing performances surfaced in 1987 : JF Bernard beating Herrera at the Ventoux, Roche's wins. Therefore I keep an open mind

Fignon admitted his doping in his book so i see no reason why he would leave out EPO.

 

[issoisso]

No aggression...I just thought you were crazy.

What about my idea of the drugs not working so well in the heat? Have you come across this? I know he was going alright in the GT's before EPO, but that's a long way from winning.

It's plausible. He did suck in the heat. And the 1992 Vuelta was quite cold.

Then again, the 93 Tour was his best performance and it was quite hot, so who knows.

There's more oxygen to be absorbed in cold weather, especially while raining, so there could be something to it

Ahh, I understand now. We all have pet riders, it's OK.

Yes, we do. Rominger's not one of mine, though.

Rominger's association with Ferrari should be enough to at least raise your eyebrows. Coupled with the fact that Rominger continued to improve and get excellent results in an era of over-doped cyclists is nearly enough "evidence" for most of us.

I fail to see what you're replying to. That he was on EPO? Of course he was, as I said before. That should be obvious to everyone.

That he was on EPO in 1989? No chance. Not to mention he first started working with Ferrari in October 89, just after the season ended.

 

[jimmypop]

I fail to see what you're replying to. That he was on EPO? Of course he was, as I said before. That should be obvious to everyone.

That he was on EPO in 1989? No chance. Not to mention he first started working with Ferrari in October 89, just after the season ended.

I'm replying to your second post in this thread, which seemed to imply that Rominger's success in the EPO era could be attributed to more effective treatment for his allergies. It sounded like a laundry list of ridiculous excuses.

I never mentioned a date, only that Rominger was certainly on the EPO train by 1990.

 

[pmcg76]

Moreno Argentin and the whole Ariostea team, Argentin went through a real renaissance in 1990 and was one of the first clients of Ferrari if I am not mistaken, then the whole Ariostea team seemed to get on the programme from 91 on with every kind of muppet turning into a good rider, Furlan, Riis, Cassani, Elli, Cenghialta, Lietti etc, etc. This then translated into Mecair/Gewiss and MG teams. Their performances were always put down to Ferretti's management style!!!

I also agree on Bugno, the star man of 1990 but still only made Top 10 at the Tour that year. I think PDM were bigtime dopers but would say they only switched to EPO in 91 when the Intralipid affair happened. They must have been properly scared after what happened to team-mate Draaijer in early 1990.

Eddy Planckaert admitted to trying EPO late in his career so maybe 90-91 but also claimed it had no benefit to his performances.

 

[131313]

here's some good reading on the subject:

http://www.slideshare.net/RedFlanders/doping-history

For cyclists, it appears that Oosterbosch, Patrice Bar and Johannes Draaijer were among the earliest pioneers. They all died though, so no one remembers them...

According to the article, Conconi didn't really start doping riders until 1993, and the Italians seemed to be the first to really figure out how to do it.

I doubt the first guys in the late 80's were really getting the full benefit, since the protocols weren't established and they were being used as test subjects.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

here's some good reading on the subject:

http://www.slideshare.net/RedFlanders/doping-history

For cyclists, it appears that Oosterbosch, Patrice Bar and Johannes Draaijer were among the earliest pioneers. They all died though, so no one remembers them...

According to the article, Conconi didn't really start doping riders until 1993, and the Italians seemed to be the first to really figure out how to do it.

I doubt the first guys in the late 80's were really getting the full benefit, since the protocols weren't established and they were being used as test subjects.

I realise you said appears but I feel there needs to be a some caution here - as only Draaijer was 'linked' to EPO (by his wife, and even that was disputed). Oosterbosch was not racing Pro at the time and although mentioned in Voets book there was some dispute as he had previous health issues.

Patrice Bar was mentioned in Joe Parkins book - (IIRC) Parkin says that Bar would take 'anything', there was no link to EPO.

I will add another 2 names that died at the time, Joaquim Halupczok (Pol)in (IIRC)1989 - and Connie Meyer (Ned), but again no direct link to EPO should be attributed, but if anyone has more info it would be appreciated.

 

[Darryl Webster]

here's some good reading on the subject:

http://www.slideshare.net/RedFlanders/doping-history

For cyclists, it appears that Oosterbosch, Patrice Bar and Johannes Draaijer were among the earliest pioneers. They all died though, so no one remembers them...

According to the article, Conconi didn't really start doping riders until 1993, and the Italians seemed to be the first to really figure out how to do it.

I doubt the first guys in the late 80's were really getting the full benefit, since the protocols weren't established and they were being used as test subjects.

Great Link!!. Isnt it about time Mosers Hour had at least an astrix against it?
For me that record , that rode rough shod through most interpretations of the regs up to that point, was the begining of many, many changes in the sport. Utter disgrace that it ever got ratified
In chat with a former team mate, Gary Sadler, in the 1980 Junior World Championships in Mexico City, he pointed out the the possibility that both East Germany and Russian teams that took Gold @ Silver in the Team Persuit were very likely doped.
I`d never considered that, but have to say he has a point!.. Udi Messerschmitt, the East German Kilo winner turned out a 1.02!!..pre discs, pre tri bars, pre carbon etc.
******...we got the Team Persuit Bronze!

 

[sub240]

EPO user first in the peloton was Lemond no doubt.

 

[issoisso]

EPO user first in the peloton was Lemond no doubt.

Heh. After all this time away from the forum, I thought I'd come back to see the Armstrong fanboy trolls with new tricks.

Guess you guys have no creativity, huh?

 

[samerics]

EPO user first in the peloton was Lemond no doubt.

At last, some sense! It was blatantly obvious he was doping by his results post 1991. What a disgraceful hypocrite!

 

[Darryl Webster]

At last, some sense! It was blatantly obvious he was doping by his results post 1991. What a disgraceful hypocrite!

Utter tosh without a shred of evidence...go crawl under a rock.

 

[redtreviso]

I realise you said appears but I feel there needs to be a some caution here - as only Draaijer was 'linked' to EPO (by his wife, and even that was disputed). Oosterbosch was not racing Pro at the time and although mentioned in Voets book there was some dispute as he had previous health issues.

Patrice Bar was mentioned in Joe Parkins book - (IIRC) Parkin says that Bar would take 'anything', there was no link to EPO.

I will add another 2 names that died at the time, Joaquim Halupczok (Pol)in (IIRC)1989 - and Connie Meyer (Ned), but again no direct link to EPO should be attributed, but if anyone has more info it would be appreciated.

Connie Meijer hit by a truck

 

[blutto]

Heh. After all this time away from the forum, I thought I'd come back to see the Armstrong fanboy trolls with new tricks.

Guess you guys have no creativity, huh?

...so let me get this straight...LeMond's VO2Max jumps thru the roof from 1979 to 1989...he absolutely sucks in the early part of the 89 Giro...then after having a couple injections of an iron supplement mid Giro he managed a second place in the last time-trial...and then wins a Tour....but all this can be all put aside because of a fanboy issue ????...no creativity issues dear sir just some reasonable hunches based on info gleaned from the horses mouth ( in interviews )...

...added skill testing question...what drug requires large amounts of iron in the system to work...and by the way subsequent studies of the use of iron for recovery showed it has a limited practical effect...so why use it?...one, for effective functioning of the drug asked about above and two it was used as an effective masking agent for steroid use ( as were B-12 injections )...

Cheers

blutto

 

[samerics]

Utter tosh without a shred of evidence...go crawl under a rock.

You had a humour bypass????

His results after 1991 show the opposite, which was my point! I was taking the p*ss out of the post, ffs, read and think before you post next time. For what it's worth, my cycling hero is LeMond.......

 

[jimmypop]

...so let me get this straight...LeMond's VO2Max jumps thru the roof from 1979 to 1989...he absolutely sucks in the early part of the 89 Giro...then after having a couple injections of an iron supplement mid Giro he managed a second place in the last time-trial...and then wins a Tour....but all this can be all put aside because of a fanboy issue ????...no creativity issues dear sir just some reasonable hunches based on info gleaned from the horses mouth ( in interviews )...

...added skill testing question...what drug requires large amounts of iron in the system to work...and by the way subsequent studies of the use of iron for recovery showed it has a limited practical effect...so why use it?...one, for effective functioning of the drug asked about above and two it was used as an effective masking agent for steroid use ( as were B-12 injections )...

Cheers

blutto

What's strange, though, is the lack of rumors. The riders from that era all seem pretty keyed in to what their peers were up to.

I'm willing to accept that Lemond doped, but he's one of the few that you don't even hear whispers about.

Hunches and speculation from outsiders are worth far less than anecdotes from insiders.

EDIT: ***. I just looked at your post history. Silly me for not checking that prior to responding!

 

[Elagabalus]

...so let me get this straight...LeMond's VO2Max jumps thru the roof from 1979 to 1989...he absolutely sucks in the early part of the 89 Giro...then after having a couple injections of an iron supplement mid Giro he managed a second place in the last time-trial...and then wins a Tour....but all this can be all put aside because of a fanboy issue ????...no creativity issues dear sir just some reasonable hunches based on info gleaned from the horses mouth ( in interviews )...

...added skill testing question...what drug requires large amounts of iron in the system to work...and by the way subsequent studies of the use of iron for recovery showed it has a limited practical effect...so why use it?...one, for effective functioning of the drug asked about above and two it was used as an effective masking agent for steroid use ( as were B-12 injections )...

Cheers

blutto

Or you could just ask yourself what drug would continue to be effective for over two months after being administered.

Cheers

M8

 

[Darryl Webster]

You had a humour bypass????

His rests after 1991 show the opposite, which was my point! I was taking the p*ss out of the post, ffs......

Fair enough..no hard feelings

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...so let me get this straight...LeMond's VO2Max jumps thru the roof from 1979 to 1989...he absolutely sucks in the early part of the 89 Giro...then after having a couple injections of an iron supplement mid Giro he managed a second place in the last time-trial...and then wins a Tour....but all this can be all put aside because of a fanboy issue ????...no creativity issues dear sir just some reasonable hunches based on info gleaned from the horses mouth ( in interviews )...

...added skill testing question...what drug requires large amounts of iron in the system to work...and by the way subsequent studies of the use of iron for recovery showed it has a limited practical effect...so why use it?...one, for effective functioning of the drug asked about above and two it was used as an effective masking agent for steroid use ( as were B-12 injections )...

Cheers

blutto

Or perhaps he was lacking in iron as he was coming back from a major trauma?

Iron was not recognised as something for the system to work (which it didn't) until well in to the 90's. But has all been explained to you before - if you want to revisit it bring back up the LeMond thread.

 

[andy1234]

You had a humour bypass????

His results after 1991 show the opposite, which was my point! I was taking the p*ss out of the post, ffs, read and think before you post next time. For what it's worth, my cycling hero is LeMond.......

One mans sarcasm is another mans genuine view around here.
Its hard to tell the difference sometimes.

 

[sub240]

One mans sarcasm is another mans genuine view around here.
Its hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Yes to be fair my post about Lemond was sarcasm but I knew that some whould take it and run with it!

 

[samerics]

Fair enough..no hard feelings

None at all