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Floyd says...you've got to legalise doping

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kurtinsc said:
We don't care how you got there.

The point you're leaving out is "how far you had to go to get there", which again allows some riders to benefit more than others, physiologically speaking.

If your natural hematocrit level is 4 or 5 points (possibly 5% to 10%) lower than your competitor, but you're both allowed to dope up to the same HCT level, then someone is getting more out of their doping than the other guy.
 
Jun 12, 2010
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flicker said:
IMO, EPO is a recovery agent, same with insulin, blood doping.

Some of these doping practices are actually improving the riders health and make stage races safer.

I think that is the consensus with the DSs.

I`ve heard that argument from doping appoligists for 25 years now, It doesnt stand examination.:rolleyes:
 
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It's easy to paint Floyd as crazy, but I think much of his behavior has to do with the fact that he has seen the deep, dark under belly of all of this, much of which most of us will never see, or even know.

His perspective is one that is truly hard to imagine. I've always felt that Tyler Hamilton went through much of the same. It's everyday reality for them but they realize that no one else can see it like that. It goes beyond being good or bad to simply being just what it is. It's hard to fully judge without knowing the depths of that reality.

I hope Tyler comes clean, and I hope that Floyd will find collaborators that he can sit down with in a rational discussion. Be it Tyler or any other ex-teammate, I would love to see more than just one person in the room talk about this stuff. I think that would go a long way to clearing some of the haze.
 
Cobblestoned said:
Of course Floyd is right in many points.
But it is a taboo to say something like that. Especially for him now that he is a saint.

A Saint. My you have a very simplistic view of the world. I can't imagine that anyone with a rational thought in their head has ever considered Landis a Saint much less even an ethical person. We all know he doped to win the TDF, lied about it, raised money on lies, and has never admitted any remorse about his doping. Mock surprise about him saying drugs should be legalized is just plain silly, even if we vehemently disagree with the idea (as I do). And none of this character assassination says a single thing about the very important allegations Landis has raised and the amount of necessary turmoil he has stirred up in this troubled sport. How absolutely silly to think that people must admire all aspects of a complex humans' life and personality just because they've performed one admirable act.
 

flicker

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Darryl Webster said:
I`ve heard that argument from doping appoligists for 25 years now, It doesnt stand examination.:rolleyes:

Someone I know rode the Vuelta and dropped out due to illness.

Look at how many finish the Tour, or the
Vuelta, or the
Giro.
I rest my case.
Landis is speaking the truth.
It was the same during LeMonds' carreer.
Now we have more effective recovery agents.
 
Mar 8, 2010
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JayZee said:
So, kind of like the Biological Passport, without the express admission of failure.

I think the system in place right now is pretty good. You have the BP, which should work to keep doping with certain limits and you also have tests that can detect certain types of doping, with new and better tests in the works. The tests will always be behind the latest and greatest doping, but you have the BP in place to limit what can been done. Not perfect, but as we have seen this past year or so, seems to work pretty well at preventing outrageously good form.

The funny thing about Floyd's comments is that they kind of help LA in the level playing field argument and in painting the riders as victims.

2011 cycling and doping season is in full swing. Yeehaw!

And we still follow cycling. Yeah ! :D
Look at all these boring other sports with their blinders on. There is always something going on in cycling and we try to solve the dopingproblem every day, because this responsibility is down to us.

Ok, sometimes we have to be ashamed when someone is caught again after we predicted that it will be better soon - but we are never bored.
 
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flicker said:
IMO, EPO is a recovery agent, same with insulin, blood doping.

Some of these doping practices are actually improving the riders health and make stage races safer.

I think that is the consensus with the DSs.

I always am weirded out when I see insulin listed as a doping material.

I've had it expalined and I guess I understand it... but as a diabetic it just feels odd to me. Insulin is simply how I avoid death.

Really no bearing on the conversation... just always looks odd to me.
 

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Boeing said:
this is an interesting quote from that article you provided

"What is ruining sport is cheating. But cheating can be reduced by changing the rules."

Well if you remove the rules altogether, then you have solved the cheating dilemma ;)

"What is ruining sport is cheating" is correct to a point - what ruins it completely is when the governing body or rule makers are complicit (either willfully or by ignoring it) in the cheating.
 
Just been looking at the threads all day - mental day on here!!!
Wiggins, I knew he was gone up Lance's a** since 09, but even I didn't think he was that bad. Kimmage must be spitting blood after seeing it.
As for Floyd's comments today. Clearly he is saying in a perfect world it would be clean, but the point he is making, and is something Dr has alluded to, is that the battle is being lost for various reasons, none more so than the governing body being complicit. And when you see Don Catlin et al being involved like that, then yes, I absolutely do see what he is saying. He is just being realistic, and when you see someone like Wiggins saying that today, you think the sport is absolutely f***ed.
 
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Digger said:
Just been looking at the threads all day - mental day on here!!!
Wiggins, I knew he was gone up Lance's a** since 09, but even I didn't think he was that bad. Kimmage must be spitting blood after seeing it.
As for Floyd's comments today. Clearly he is saying in a perfect world it would be clean, but the point he is making, and is something Dr has alluded to, is that the battle is being lost for various reasons, none more so than the governing body being complicit. And when you see Don Catlin et al being involved like that, then yes, I absolutely do see what he is saying. He is just being realistic, and when you see someone like Wiggins saying that today, you think the sport is absolutely f***ed.

+1
well said.

Also +1 for being horrid to wade through the threads today, so much trolling craP posted.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Well if you remove the rules altogether, then you have solved the cheating dilemma ;)

Now we're getting somewhere!

Let's make it like the MMA: everything is legal (except maybe fish hooks and eye gouges). That way, before you even throw your leg over your bike, you can simply beat the living **** out of that guy ahead of you on GC.

Let's see how many 5'-6", 140 lb guys podium with THOSE rules...

:D
 
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MacRoadie said:
Now we're getting somewhere!

Let's make it like the MMA: everything is legal (except maybe fish hooks and eye gouges). That way, before you even throw your leg over your bike, you can simply beat the living **** out of that guy ahead of you on GC.

Let's see how many 5'-6", 140 lb guys podium with THOSE rules...

:D

No throat punching either, however using your front wheel as a battle axe is encouraged.
 
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Floyd, go back to Idyllwild and live in your cabin, cabin boy.

cabin-boy-movie-poster-1020272760.jpg
 
BikeCentric said:
A Saint. My you have a very simplistic view of the world. I can't imagine that anyone with a rational thought in their head has ever considered Landis a Saint much less even an ethical person. We all know he doped to win the TDF, lied about it, raised money on lies, and has never admitted any remorse about his doping. Mock surprise about him saying drugs should be legalized is just plain silly, even if we vehemently disagree with the idea (as I do). And none of this character assassination says a single thing about the very important allegations Landis has raised and the amount of necessary turmoil he has stirred up in this troubled sport. How absolutely silly to think that people must admire all aspects of a complex humans' life and personality just because they've performed one admirable act.

In 'stoned bizzaro world if you say that Floyd lied when he said he didn't dope but is now telling the truth about his and everyone's doping, well then you are recommending him for sainthood.
 

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kurtinsc said:
While I'm not saying we SHOULD do this...

if you had certain measurements that all riders needed to fall within, but didn't do any monitoring of how they got there... wouldn't that work?

I'm not sure if it would be really feasible, but it seems like the biological passport kind of has pieces of that in place already. We have a system where if a rider is "outside the norm", he gets suspended even though we don't know what he took. If you expanded on that in some way, but used it to replace any existing drug testing... wouldn't that kind of fit?


I'm not an expert... just throwing it out there. It wouldn't be that you took drug X so you're suspended. It would be that your blood levels were outside the legal limits... so you're suspended. We don't care how you got there.

It would be more similar to the rules on bikes. There are certain rules about weight and lengths and widths... but as long as you are within those rules you can do whatever you like.

As long as your blood values are within the rules... take whatever you like.

Quite simply you cannot have an agreed 'monitoring' rule - cheaters cheat, so they will quickly work out the system and beat it.
Add to that the can of worms of who enforces any tolerence to doping - Doctors would be going aginst their own ethical guidelines.

So 'partial doping' is not workable - so its 100% "let them at it" or not.

What you would be left with is a chemistry test - not sport.
Teams might as well call themselves, Team Conconi, or Team Fuentes as the riders ar just expendable lab rats and the difference between one and the other is how willing they are to try and kill themselves.
 
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Skandar Akbar said:
Isn't this great? This person lies to the innocent believers to take their money to cover up his doping. Then he comes clean to 'clear his conscience' coincidentally when Lance would not succumb to his blackmail to ride for Shack. Now he says to legalise dope so all the hard workers who want to be clean will have to take dope.

Wiggins says this guy drinks alot and we know he was drunk with his goofy friend when he called Greg Lemond. Maybe he should blow into a breath test before he is interviewed.

I couldn't agree more with that!!!

That gun analogy is outrageous. If people weren't convinced until now that he's nothing but a small child whose favourite toy has been taken away will surely have to admit now that he lost even the slightest remaining hint of credibility.

A few people here mentioned that they had respect for him for "coming clean" but how on earth can you give any credit to a guy argueing like he does. I for my part stand firmly with Wiggins on that looser.
 
Floyd's opinion is irrelevant.

What kinds of businesses will pay money to sponsor a peloton of doped-up freaks? That's the question. Without sponsors, the infrastructure of the UCI falls apart. The UCI viscerally understands this. Doping is fought to keep the sponsors happy. The UCI would only token-test if sponsors didn't care. Look at how very bad the USOC did when nobody was watching.
Look at the NFL and the NBA. Their sponsors obviously don't care as much and their brands are not as directly linked to the athletes and teams.

And there are sponsors that do not care. Rock Racing is a classic example. Fortunately the big money sponsors care more about the good name of their company than Mr. Ball did. If it ever gets to the point where a critical mass of big money sponsors don't care, you may as well gice up on a clean peloton. I don't think that will happen, though. Good sponsors won't back a freak show.

A too-relaxed dope testing scheme can also implicate governmental response. Look at major league baseball and the US and Spain post-Puerto.

Those opinions matter. The opinions of a morally bankrupt lying former bicycle racer do not.

The key toward a cleaner and cleaner peloton is continued pressure on sponsors and governments. The UCI feels that indirect pressure more keenly than any attempt to pressure them directly.
 
Dan Benson is a hardcore Armstrong apologist and fanboy, so its not so shocking that his name would be at the top of an article which makes Landis look a bit stupid, or at least is structured to make him look stupid. This should secure a few more Armstrong 'exclusives' for CN.

Just how many beers did you have to ply him with to get him to say this?

However, just because Landis has some wacky ideas about the best way to deal with doping, doesn't mean that his claims about Armstrong are suddenly untrue. Nor is it the case that those who have supported Landis in blowing the whistle have to agree with him when it comes to what to do about doping.

I am sure that a lot of Armstrong apologists must be very conflicted at the moment - on the one hand their hatred for Landis, on the other, he's offered a way to relegitimise the Uniballer.
 
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Granville57 said:
It's easy to paint Floyd as crazy, but I think much of his behavior has to do with the fact that he has seen the deep, dark under belly of all of this, much of which most of us will never see, or even know.

His perspective is one that is truly hard to imagine. I've always felt that Tyler Hamilton went through much of the same. It's everyday reality for them but they realize that no one else can see it like that. It goes beyond being good or bad to simply being just what it is. It's hard to fully judge without knowing the depths of that reality.

I hope Tyler comes clean, and I hope that Floyd will find collaborators that he can sit down with in a rational discussion. Be it Tyler or any other ex-teammate, I would love to see more than just one person in the room talk about this stuff. I think that would go a long way to clearing some of the haze.

Boooohooooh! I almost feel like shedding a tear for the guy.

Rational???:confused: What part of todays interview can be classified as rational???:confused: You can't honestly believe that any sane person would sit down with Floyd for a "rational" discussion apart from his shrink?

The only haze that needs to be cleared is that deep fog around Floyd's brain which started to develop shortly after July 2006 and today has reached ZERO visibility.
 
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Dan Benson is a hardcore Armstrong apologist and fanboy, so its not so shocking that his name would be at the top of an article which makes Landis look a bit stupid, or at least is structured to make him look stupid. This should secure a few more Armstrong 'exclusives' for CN.

I thought Benson's spelling-bee twitter to Armstrong was a very public slam. I'm not familiar with most of what he writes, though.
 
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A lie by any other name

Im sure one of the things that Landis is mad about is that he got pinched for doing the same as all the other successful riders. He knows, as does JV, that if he played ball with Armstrong he would have been protected and it never would have happened. This is the source of Armstrong's power - the fact that cheating is illegal and he can manipulate the system so that he can get away with it(and do it better) than others without getting caught. Make doping legal and it might be a little more fair.

A better analogy than guns might have been pot, or prohibition of alcohol. Those that are willing and better able to manipulate the system by violence and intimidation, among other things, are more successful - not necessarily those with the best pot. Legalize it, he seems to argue, and maybe we can have good, safe, regulated pot available to people. I myself find this argument dubious because you are swapping one form of corruption for another.

What's the answer? I don't think any of us knows. Start a new league where the governing body is set up differently? Total regulation of the human body?Is there a clean professional sport even out there to use as a model?

Any way you slice it just because you may not agree with his solution doesnt mean you have to disagree with his contention, based largely in fact, that there is a major problem.

Finally, I'd like to point out that if you lie, and dont get caught lying, it doesnt mean what you said was true. Its still a lie.
 
mad black said:
Boooohooooh! I almost feel like shedding a tear for the guy.

Rational???:confused: What part of todays interview can be classified as rational???:confused: You can't honestly believe that any sane person would sit down with Floyd for a "rational" discussion apart from his shrink?

The only haze that needs to be cleared is that deep fog around Floyd's brain which started to develop shortly after July 2006 and today has reached ZERO visibility.

Floyd sounds a lot more coherent than you do. Morally bankrupt and extremely cycnical yes, but he certainly sounds quite clear-eyed and rational. He sees cycling as it is and also sees it getting worse rather than getting better. I agree with his analysis of the situation though I vehemently disagree with his suggestion of legalizing doping.

Actually on second thought, I would love to see the UCI go ahead and try that since they would be destroying themselves by doing so and then someone else would start up a new and less corrupt pro cycling league in their place.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
However, just because Landis has some wacky ideas about the best way to deal with doping, doesn't mean that his claims about Armstrong are suddenly untrue. Nor is it the case that those who have supported Landis in blowing the whistle have to agree with him when it comes to what to do about doping.

well said.

these comments are floyd's biggest misstep since last spring. i think what floyd really wants by "legalization" is for people to not be so shocked or to feel such personal betrayal when they find out an athlete like himself has been using PEDs. what he'd really like to see is more tolerance in response to dopers although i don't think he knows how to say it. as has already been stated, PED use is essentially allowed within certain limits now. furthermore, usually the most egregious are caught, not immediately but eventually. legalizing doping in most ways i can imagine isn't a practical or workable solution.

his recent retirement talk came at a strange time as well. for many reasons, he should hush up a bit, let the experts take it from here, and patiently wait for things to play out in courtrooms on their own for the foreseeable future. silence can be very powerful. he's got the ball rolling, that's enough for now.