Floyd to be charged with fraud

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Caruut said:
Justice could be described as an "arbitrary fiction", but it is one on which the rule of law, and thus civilised society, depends.

He admitted to doping, but not to doping with testosterone - fighting a case against his testosterone charge with money for that then doesn't seem so much like fraud. If a guy gets donations to fight one murder charge, and confesses to a different one, then they are two different cases, as these are.

Personally, I can't tell whether Floyd's "not testosterone" claim has any validity. On one level, it seems like a fraud get-out clause, yet on another, he has been so frankly and damagingly honest elsewhere, I can't see why he would lie here. The fact remains that he hasn't confessed to the crime which he was fighting with the FFF. It's all very complicated.

Not to be tautological, but I'd say the rule of law mostly depends on the rule of law. Faith in it being maintained by various coercive and auxiliary constructs. Civilized society, at least on this side of the Atlantic, seems mostly to wax and wane with the climate of prosperity. Look at the extreme, violent and evangelical rights as they emerged from the conjuncture of the 76-77 recession.

That aside, I don't follow the peregrinations of Floyd in exile any longer, but for the feds, the fact that he admits to everything else, but not the testosterone may not amount to much. From their perspective, it could just be a degree (rather than a difference) of admission that he can't get to. In that respect, it's not the same as a murderer admitting to a separate case that can't be proven. And on the face of it, his public record-while ultimately redemptive for many--can't be characterized as consistent or reliable.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - doping is not a crime.

Which law says that there must be an investigation for a "crime" when you know you have committed (FL says he didn't but...) and that you admit to (FL says he took other PEDs during the Tour)?

That sounds like made up law.



Being investigated for misappropriation, sure. Anything else, no.



What? then our jails would be full of lawyers who took cases of people they knew to be guilty (not a bad scenario)....
How do you know if someone is "guilty" of their crime unless they get a fair hearing??
Remember Landis nearly got off... it was 2 to 1.

Discussing anything with you is like microsurgery.

Doping in professional sports is a crime in several countries.
Investigation of an offence that someone has confessed to, is routine.
I said contributing to the fund of a guilty man is stupid, not against the law.


With respect, I don't have the energy to explain every sentence I write to correct your interpretation of it.

D
 
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aphronesis said:
Not to be tautological, but I'd say the rule of law mostly depends on the rule of law. Faith in it being maintained by various coercive and auxiliary constructs. Civilized society, at least on this side of the Atlantic, seems mostly to wax and wane with the climate of prosperity. Look at the extreme, violent and evangelical rights as they emerged from the conjuncture of the 76-77 recession.

That aside, I don't follow the peregrinations of Floyd in exile any longer, but for the feds, the fact that he admits to everything else, but not the testosterone may not amount to much. From their perspective, it could just be a degree (rather than a difference) of admission that he can't get to. In that respect, it's not the same as a murderer admitting to a separate case that can't be proven. And on the face of it, his public record-while ultimately redemptive for many--can't be characterized as consistent or reliable.

I see what you mean with your reluctant tautology, but I do feel that what you're saying kind of agrees with me, actually. Without trust, it is hard for the law to work - that trust is built by the law working,which creates some kind of idea of "justice".

I agree that Floyd is inconsistent, I just think that there are several posters here who are willing to interpret Floyd's behaviour only to back their already-formed opinions up.

The feds may think what they want, but lawyers will still get involved. If the argument is that claiming money to defend yourself against an accusation, and then confessing to that is fraud, then he hasn't technically done it. I think that they'd have to prove that he knowingly took testosterone, which would be rather hard.
 
Caruut said:
I see what you mean with your reluctant tautology, but I do feel that what you're saying kind of agrees with me, actually. Without trust, it is hard for the law to work - that trust is built by the law working,which creates some kind of idea of "justice".

I agree that Floyd is inconsistent, I just think that there are several posters here who are willing to interpret Floyd's behaviour only to back their already-formed opinions up.

The feds may think what they want, but lawyers will still get involved. If the argument is that claiming money to defend yourself against an accusation, and then confessing to that is fraud, then he hasn't technically done it. I think that they'd have to prove that he knowingly took testosterone, which would be rather hard.

Ok, let's call it a regulative norm (justice) rather than the expected or even ultimate "karmic" good to which some here tend to hold it.

I have no stake in Floyd's behavior. I don't know the man and don't care to psychologize strangers from the placidity of my home.

I'm also not sure if that's what they would have to prove. I don't know enough at that level. The fact is though that he didn't have to defend himself against that accusation. It wasn't a criminal charge; so there is some matter of intent in soliciting the money which might be slightly separate to his awareness of the testosterone. And if, as was suggested above, it appeared in his system from a faulty transfusion, wouldn't that still make him responsible--regardless of the timeline?
 
aphronesis said:
Not to be tautological, but I'd say the rule of law mostly depends on the rule of law. Faith in it being maintained by various coercive and auxiliary constructs. Civilized society, at least on this side of the Atlantic, seems mostly to wax and wane with the climate of prosperity. Look at the extreme, violent and evangelical rights as they emerged from the conjuncture of the 76-77 recession.

That aside, I don't follow the peregrinations of Floyd in exile any longer, but for the feds, the fact that he admits to everything else, but not the testosterone may not amount to much. From their perspective, it could just be a degree (rather than a difference) of admission that he can't get to. In that respect, it's not the same as a murderer admitting to a separate case that can't be proven. And on the face of it, his public record-while ultimately redemptive for many--can't be characterized as consistent or reliable.

The rule of law ultimately depends upon the man with the gun and the terror he inspires. A judge unsupported by terror is just a weirdo in a black robe.

Eisenhower didn't send judges to Little Rock in 1957, that's for sure.
 

Dr. Maserati

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andy1234 said:
Discussing anything with you is like microsurgery.

Doping in professional sports is a crime in several countries.
Investigation of an offence that someone has confessed to, is routine.
I said contributing to the fund of a guilty man is stupid, not against the law.


With respect, I don't have the energy to explain every sentence I write to correct your interpretation of it.

D

There was no microsurgery needed on your original post - it was DOA.

Please point out why doping being a crime in other countries has any relevance to a discussion about a rider who resides and is being investigated by the US authorities? You can use both sides of the paper if you need to.

Why (and who) needs to "investigate" an "offence that someone has confessed to", when that person has been sanctioned for that offense?
 
Dr. Maserati said:
There was no microsurgery needed on your original post - it was DOA.

Please point out why doping being a crime in other countries has any relevance to a discussion about a rider who resides and is being investigated by the US authorities? You can use both sides of the paper if you need to.

Why (and who) needs to "investigate" an "offence that someone has confessed to", when that person has been sanctioned for that offense?

And there you go again......

You stated doping wasn't a crime. I corrected you.
Landis's fraud is not doping. Its (possibly) acquring money dishonestly.

If I received money from donations, based upon telling people I had a fabricated disease, it would be illegal.
The fabrication of the disease is not illegal, but aquiring money based on the false claim is.

If Landis recived money based upon a defense that he hadn' t doped, he received that money dishonestly.

Even if Landis lives in a country where doping is not illegal, acquiring money based upon a lie, is.

Now forgive me, but I don't recall Landis being sanctioned for this already?
 
thehog said:
Andy1234 I have to admit you're been shown up and look stupid. You should debate those post at hand but obviously not qualified to do so... quit whilst you're behind.

Thanks for admitting that. It must have been tough for you.
Coming from someone so monumentally qualified to spot stupidity, I'd better take note.
 
MarkvW said:
The rule of law ultimately depends upon the man with the gun and the terror he inspires. A judge unsupported by terror is just a weirdo in a black robe.

Eisenhower didn't send judges to Little Rock in 1957, that's for sure.

mao? (and some guy debord.)

force and terror have recourse to law making in order to redistribute power in ways that create and maintain a monopoly on force and terror.
 

Polish

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andy1234 said:
This is a discussion about Landis.
Another persons crimes going unpunished is irrelevant.

Somehow Lands being at odds with Armstrong makes him less accountable than anyone else who commited the same offences? I don't think so.

Landis being investigated is fair. Everything else is another discussion.

I think it is interesting to imagine if Floyd won his defense/appeal. And was officially recognized as the winner of the 2006 TdF. No e-mails or confessions. Then joined Radioshack lol yikes.

Although still be under investigation for the fraud. Lets say someone sent some e-mails saying they saw Floyd doping in 2006 France. Some people here in the Clinic would change their opinion drastically. I do not want to call it a "flip flop", because they would have a valid reason for their change of opinion.

But a few would not change their opinion. Included in that group are the true Floyd fans and the true Floyd non-fans. Fans, non-fans, and flip-floppers.

I'm a fan. Go Floyd. Would have been a fan if he went to Radioshack too.

Also, different topic - but there has only been one leak on this GJ investigation. The unnamed source that gave CyclingNews the tip off.
I am thinking the source is reliable and the investigation for Floyd is FFF related. But does anyone think there may be a connection with the Lance Investigation ending and a Floyd investigation starting/ongoing? Does anyone think that "Floyd's Fraud" may be related to the Lance investigation abruptly ending? Not FFF related, but something else/more?
 
Polish said:
I think it is interesting to imagine if Floyd won his defense/appeal. And was officially recognized as the winner of the 2006 TdF. No e-mails or confessions. Then joined Radioshack lol yikes.

Although still be under investigation for the fraud. Lets say someone sent some e-mails saying they saw Floyd doping in 2006 France. Some people here in the Clinic would change their opinion drastically. I do not want to call it a "flip flop", because they would have a valid reason for their change of opinion.

But a few would not change their opinion. Included in that group are the true Floyd fans and the true Floyd non-fans. Fans, non-fans, and flip-floppers.

I'm a fan. Go Floyd. Would have been a fan if he went to Radioshack too.

Also, different topic - but there has only been one leak on this GJ investigation. The unnamed source that gave CyclingNews the tip off.
I am thinking the source is reliable and the investigation for Floyd is FFF related. But does anyone think there may be a connection with the Lance Investigation ending and a Floyd investigation starting/ongoing? Does anyone think that "Floyd's Fraud" may be related to the Lance investigation abruptly ending? Not FFF related, but something else/more?

Yes I do.
I think a vindictive @ss**** might be the reason.
 
Sep 5, 2009
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9000ft said:
Whether Floyd defrauded people by asking them money for his defense has something to do with Lance Armstrong?

The alleged motivation of Armstrong to encourage donations from his wealthy sycophants in his Champions Club was not to assist in exonerating Floyd but to discredit the same French lab that tested his 1999 "B" samples.

Those sycophants could only be induced to donate by Armstrong's fraud that Floyd, like himself, was the subject of a French conspiracy when Armstrong was aware that Floyd was a team PED user on USPS and PED use was obligatory for TdF success.

Any member of the Champions Club could take legal action against LA if he induced those donations by falsely claiming Floyd was clean and had suffered at the hands of a French conspiracy.

David "Tiger" Williams was a member of the Champions Club and has a falling out with Armstrong and may have been instrumental in FL's LA exposure. He could make it hot in the kitchen for LA if he legally sought to recover his donations to the FFF on LA's recommendations.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704457604576011490820993006.html

Mr. Landis says he spent about $2 million on his defense, and that about 70% of the outside money he raised came from this circle of wealthy cycling backers. ....

Mr. Williams was furious, say people familiar with the matter. He talked about suing Mr. Armstrong and said he considered their friendship over, these people say.

Late last year, after Mr. Landis's comeback fizzled, he again began thinking about speaking out about doping. He reached out to Mr. Williams, who told him the story was bound to come out and that Mr. Landis should make sure whatever he said was accurate, Mr. Landis says. Mr. Williams has said that his advice wasn't influenced by his dispute with Mr. Armstrong, according to Mr. Landis and a person familiar with the matter
.
 
Velodude said:
The alleged motivation of Armstrong to encourage donations from his wealthy sycophants in his Champions Club was not to assist in exonerating Floyd but to discredit the same French lab that tested his 1999 "B" samples.

Those sycophants could only be induced to donate by Armstrong's fraud that Floyd, like himself, was the subject of a French conspiracy when Armstrong was aware that Floyd was a team PED user on USPS and PED use was obligatory for TdF success.

Any member of the Champions Club could take legal action against LA if he induced those donations by falsely claiming Floyd was clean and had suffered at the hands of a French conspiracy.

David "Tiger" Williams was a member of the Champions Club and has a falling out with Armstrong and may have been instrumental in FL's LA exposure. He could make it hot in the kitchen for LA if he legally sought to recover his donations to the FFF on LA's recommendations.

.

VDude I value your opinion. Why would some suggest Armstrong pushed for Floyd to be investigated by the Feds if it could expose himself?

In addition what Federal law(s) could have been broken by Floyd in accepting the donations? I'm still not seeing what law or line has been crossed if people were donating to a cause rather than having money "swindled" from them to make profit elsewhere.
 
Floyd's sole objective was to demonstrate his innocence, which he subsequently announced did not exist.

Some people still don’t get it. The purpose of a trial is NOT to demonstrate innocence. It is to determine whether there is enough evidence to establish guilt. Likewise, the purpose of a legal defense fund is NOT to vindicate someone who is innocent. It is to reduce the probability of there being sufficient evidence to establish guilt.

Individuals are of course free to view a trial as a demonstration of innocence, as vindication, etc. But this is their personal interpretation; it is not how the law sees it. If you get a verdict of not guilty, the law does not say you are innocent. The law does not say you are vindicated. That is just someone's spin on the verdict.

If I received money from donations, based upon telling people I had a fabricated disease, it would be illegal.
The fabrication of the disease is not illegal, but aquiring money based on the false claim is.

If Landis recived money based upon a defense that he hadn' t doped, he received that money dishonestly.

Nope. You still don’t get it. The first example is fraud, because you aren’t using the money to treat the disease. The second is not fraud because you are using the money for exactly what you say you are using it for.

A much closer analogy would be someone who asked for money to treat a disease, when he in fact knew it was incurable, and that there were very strong odds that he would die regardless of treatment. Is that fraud? I don’t know, but if we’re going to compare it to Floyd’s situation, we should stipulate that it is well-known that people with that disease almost always die. Perhaps the person assures donators that he has been told by doctors he has a better than average chance of surviving.

However, even that analogy doesn't capture the situation. In the medical example, the person who is asking for money is withholding information relevant to deciding how well spent that money will turn out to be. In Floyd's situation, this was not the case.

Floyd's defense was not that he hadn't doped. He said he didn't dope, but that wasn't his defense. His defense was a carefully constructed attack on the science that indicated he doped, and not a bad one under the circumstances. In the CAS appeal, he managed to get the elevated T/E thrown out. He put that money to very good use.

Most if not all of the money given to Floyd was donated after he put all the documents on the internet. At that point, his actual guilt/innocence was completely irrelevant to the outcome of the case. The outcome was going to be determined BY THOSE FACTS ALONE. So how could someone who donated to Floyd complain that he was cheated? Whether Floyd really doped or not was not going to affect the outcome of the case, which is to say, it did not affect how wise it was to donate the money.

I understand that some people might have donated not just to get Floyd off, but to make a statement. That the truth will out. Of course these people--who I think were all nickel and dime contributors--were disappointed. But again, the notion of vindication is not a legal one; it's just spin. If Floyd used their money to the best of his ability to get off, it's all he should be legally obligated to do.

Donors could sue Floyd for damages, but it's up to a prosecutor to step in and pursue criminal fraud

Of course, in America anyone can sue anyone for anything. I can sue someone on this forum for disagreeing with me. Seriously.
 
Merckx index said:
Some people still don’t get it. The purpose of a trial is NOT to demonstrate innocence. It is to determine whether there is enough evidence to establish guilt. Likewise, the purpose of a legal defense fund is NOT to vindicate someone who is innocent. It is to reduce the probability of there being sufficient evidence to establish guilt.

Individuals are of course free to view a trial as a demonstration of innocence, as vindication, etc. But this is their personal interpretation; it is not how the law sees it. If you get a verdict of not guilty, the law does not say you are innocent. The law does not say you are vindicated. That is just someone's spin on the verdict.



Nope. You still don’t get it. The first example is fraud, because you aren’t using the money to treat the disease. The second is not fraud because you are using the money for exactly what you say you are using it for.



Of course, in America anyone can sue anyone for anything. I can sue someone on this forum for disagreeing with me. Seriously.

Good of you to collapse the posters. Yes, it's true some people don't get it. If you admit to the basic allegations (setting aside the testosterone issue) you moot the point of the hearing. Those allegations are ultimately at stake in regard to the governing body you are describing. If you're going to get pedantic and technical about short-handing "innocence" for burden of proof (the differences of which I am well aware; it's not a difficult distinction to grasp, nor is it concealed from the public record), then you should probably go back and remove your various examples--the ludicrous future conditions of political campaigning for example--which as I said, don't parallel this one. Again, speaking of not getting....

But since we are being pedantic and technical, your most recent post has much to say about "the law," "the eyes of the law," etc. which, outside of France, I wasn't aware had much to do with Floyd in this matter. One would think that that might be one of the hinge points here, which, maybe, would distinguish this from a situation in which one solicits funds for defense in a criminal "law" case. The USADA is not the law--although it is federally funded.

Similarly, the remark about suing had nothing to do with the glorious liberties of America, but to underscore the difference between civil and criminal.
 
Merckx index said:
Of course, in America anyone can sue anyone for anything. I can sue someone on this forum for disagreeing with me. Seriously.

Question remains why haven't they sued already? If they were that angry when he admitted in 2010 that could have formed a class action and sued him.

The nickel & dimmers as you eloquently state were probably more of the "France vs America" debate which was still hot at the time rather than advocating clean sport.

Your post is excellent. Explains it all very well which makes me think the investigation is to tie up Floyd and truly bankrupt him. Can't think of another reason why a prosecutor would go near it.
 
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thehog said:
VDude I value your opinion. Why would some suggest Armstrong pushed for Floyd to be investigated by the Feds if it could expose himself?

In addition what Federal law(s) could have been broken by Floyd in accepting the donations? I'm still not seeing what law or line has been crossed if people were donating to a cause rather than having money "swindled" from them to make profit elsewhere.

I do not know if LA is behind the Fed probe into FL. It would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot if he was the initiator considering his problems arose from not addressing Floyd as a loose cannon type potential problem before 2010.

From what I recall the careful scripting behind inducing donations to the FFF was to bring fairness to the anti-doping system through reforms, openness and transparency and drawing awareness to the related issues concerning Floyd's case.

From recollection it was omitted from the FFF spiel any reference to Floyd's innocence or funding to prove his innocence.

I cannot see how the Feds could run a fraud case against FL unless the FFF had misled the donors the funds were to prove that Floyd did not partake in PEDs.
 
Merckx index said:
Some people still don’t get it. The purpose of a trial is NOT to demonstrate innocence. It is to determine whether there is enough evidence to establish guilt. Likewise, the purpose of a legal defense fund is NOT to vindicate someone who is innocent. It is to reduce the probability of there being sufficient evidence to establish guilt.

Individuals are of course free to view a trial as a demonstration of innocence, as vindication, etc. But this is their personal interpretation; it is not how the law sees it. If you get a verdict of not guilty, the law does not say you are innocent. The law does not say you are vindicated. That is just someone's spin on the verdict.



Nope. You still don’t get it. The first example is fraud, because you aren’t using the money to treat the disease. The second is not fraud because you are using the money for exactly what you say you are using it for.

A much closer analogy would be someone who asked for money to treat a disease, when he in fact knew it was incurable, and that there were very strong odds that he would die regardless of treatment. Is that fraud? I don’t know, but if we’re going to compare it to Floyd’s situation, we should stipulate that it is well-known that people with that disease almost always die. Perhaps the person assures donators that he has been told by doctors he has a better than average chance of surviving.

However, even that analogy doesn't capture the situation. In the medical example, the person who is asking for money is withholding information relevant to deciding how well spent that money will turn out to be. In Floyd's situation, this was not the case.

Floyd's defense was not that he hadn't doped. He said he didn't dope, but that wasn't his defense. His defense was a carefully constructed attack on the science that indicated he doped, and not a bad one under the circumstances. In the CAS appeal, he managed to get the elevated T/E thrown out. He put that money to very good use.

Most if not all of the money given to Floyd was donated after he put all the documents on the internet. At that point, his actual guilt/innocence was completely irrelevant to the outcome of the case. The outcome was going to be determined BY THOSE FACTS ALONE. So how could someone who donated to Floyd complain that he was cheated? Whether Floyd really doped or not was not going to affect the outcome of the case, which is to say, it did not affect how wise it was to donate the money.

I understand that some people might have donated not just to get Floyd off, but to make a statement. That the truth will out. Of course these people--who I think were all nickel and dime contributors--were disappointed. But again, the notion of vindication is not a legal one; it's just spin. If Floyd used their money to the best of his ability to get off, it's all he should be legally obligated to do.



Of course, in America anyone can sue anyone for anything. I can sue someone on this forum for disagreeing with me. Seriously.

The basic issue is really rather simple. Did Floyd induce people to give him money by knowingly making false statements?
 
MarkvW said:
The basic issue is really rather simple. Did Floyd induce people to give him money by knowingly making false statements?

yes, thank you. which was all "innocence" was ever meant to denote. (since there was never a legal--let alone criminal-- case as such to begin with. not until FL moved to federal court to have the findings thrown out)

Floyd seems to think so:

"I am acutely aware that accepting money on a false premise and then later returning it does not erase the lie,” he said, “and I'll live with the fact that I lied to trusting people, but I want to live an honorable life and I hope that people will see this as a starting point toward that goal."

Landis, who has subsequently admitted doping for much of his career and pointed the finger at many others, said that the fact that he convinced fans to contribute to a campaign based on lies nagged at him daily.

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...Floyd-Fairness-Fund-donors.aspx#ixzz1rPMAvejc


Distinction here from political campaigns is that this is based in past factuality, not future premises.
 
aphronesis said:
Floyd seems to think so:

"I am acutely aware that accepting money on a false premise and then later returning it does not erase the lie,” he said, “and I'll live with the fact that I lied to trusting people, but I want to live an honorable life and I hope that people will see this as a starting point toward that goal."

Landis, who has subsequently admitted doping for much of his career and pointed the finger at many others, said that the fact that he convinced fans to contribute to a campaign based on lies nagged at him daily.

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...Floyd-Fairness-Fund-donors.aspx#ixzz1rPMAvejc


Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...Floyd-Fairness-Fund-donors.aspx#ixzz1rPM0Guqd

Distinction here from political campaigns is that this is based in past factuality, not future premises.

Not to cloud the issue but reminds me a little of selling a book for profit with:

"I asked myself what I believed. I had never prayed a lot. I hoped hard, wished hard, but I didn't pray. I had developed a certain distrust of organised religion growing up, but I felt I had the capacity to be a spiritual person, and to hold some fervent beliefs. Quite simply, I believed I had a responsibility to be a good person, and that meant fair, honest, hardworking and honorable. If I did that, if I was good to my family, true to my friends, if I gave back to my community or to some cause, if I wasn't a liar, a cheat, or a thief, then I believed that should be enough. At the end of the day, if there was indeed some Body or presence standing there to judge me, I hoped I would be judged on whether I had lived a true life, not on whether I believed in a certain book, or whether I'd been baptised."
— Lance Armstrong (It's Not About the Bike: My Journey Back to Life)

or

"...I know you're going to find this hard to believe, but (Ferrari is), to me, totally clean, and totally ethical, believes in clean, fair sport, but produces great results with his athletes because he's -- he's so focused. But I never -- I never had a conversation with him regarding (Performance enhancing drugs)"
 
Sep 5, 2009
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Floydfairnessfund.org no longer exists. But the wayback machine archived it at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070428235240/http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/

The spiel is:

Our Mission Fairness and Justice for Floyd

The Floyd Fairness Fund was established to support Floyd Landis in his efforts to clear his name of unsubstantiated doping allegations by providing him with the means to attain a fair and just hearing.

Our Mission is:

•To support Floyd Landis against unsubstantiated doping allegations
•To provide the means to attain fairness for Floyd
•To bring justice to those responsible for misconduct in the case

The above is not a claim of innocence but that the evidence held by the anti doping authorities cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that Floyd doped in winning that stage (and the TdF).
 
Velodude said:
Floydfairnessfund.org no longer exists. But the wayback machine archived it at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070428235240/http://www.floydfairnessfund.org/

The spiel is:



The above is not a claim of innocence but that the evidence held by the anti doping authorities cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that Floyd doped in winning that stage (and the TdF).

The doping authorities never had to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.