For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[coapman]

Like changing the way one pedals none of these training methods have led to an improvement in performance.

Wrong, if a circular pedaler changes to mashing he will improve performance. (Coyle et al).

 

[coapman]

So, I have now proven that my modification I did on the exercise bike, to improve training for improved pedal forces over the top is doable on a bike you can ride outdoors. I am not sure I will get more than 10 miles out of this first try but I have ridden it and it is fine. As you can see I simply screwed some plastic pipe onto a cargo carrier and then made extensions to properly position my bungie cords. When I showed this to my wife she said "Loonie, I don't want to be seen with you!" LOL.

You get 100% for perseverance. You said between 5 and 11 o'c is equally important, (excluding unweighting) what do you intend to do there.

 

[CoachFergie]

Wrong, if a circular pedaler changes to mashing he will improve performance. (Coyle et al).

The would only pedal in a circular fashion if they had been taught so.

Choose coaches wisely.

 

[FrankDay]

So, I have now proven that my modification I did on the exercise bike, to improve training for improved pedal forces over the top is doable on a bike you can ride outdoors. I am not sure I will get more than 10 miles out of this first try but I have ridden it and it is fine. As you can see I simply screwed some plastic pipe onto a cargo carrier and then made extensions to properly position my bungie cords. When I showed this to my wife she said "Loonie, I don't want to be seen with you!" LOL.

I took it out for a 9 mile spin and it help up just fine to my surprise. More tomorrow.

 

[the big ring]

I took it out for a 9 mile spin and it help up just fine to my surprise. More tomorrow.

I take it you're not doing crit training on this bike? You know - cornering at speed n stuff?

 

[CoachFergie]

I take it you're not doing crit training on this bike? You know - cornering at speed n stuff?

Nup, I think Specificity of Training Principle is a mystery to Frank.

 

[FrankDay]

I take it you're not doing crit training on this bike? You know - cornering at speed n stuff?

No, although I could as nothing about the rig interferes with bike handling or ground clearance. If you were in a pack/group it would interfere with how close someone could get to your wheel

 

[FrankDay]

Nup, I think Specificity of Training Principle is a mystery to Frank.

Hey Fergie, it is all about specificity of training. If someone wants to do something then they have to do it a lot. If I want to push more over the top then I have to devise a way of making me do this thing that isn't particularly "natural" and doing it a lot, so it eventually becomes natural to me. The difference between you and me is I think this is important. You do not.

Now, with the soon availability of 2nd gen PM's I (or anyone) would be able to measure the effectiveness of such training over time instead of guessing about such effectiveness. But, because you don't care you think it wrong that anyone else should either.

 

[the big ring]

That set up looks like the instant your foot passes 3 O'Clock (RHS), the elastic would yank your foot back.

 

[FrankDay]

That set up looks like the instant your foot passes 3 O'Clock (RHS), the elastic would yank your foot back.

It would if it were not for the fact that the motion is stopped by the inertia of the bicycle so that "yanking" only increases the pedal force on the bottom. So, this is similar to the unweighting that occurs on the backstroke, putting potential energy into the leg when it is raised against gravity, that the rider gets back on the downstroke. Here, potential energy is put into the bungie cord as the leg goes over the top so this is returned by increased pedal force on the bottom.

While, it would seem such a contraption would hurt power, it really doesn't because what is lost on the top is gained on the bottom less the little bit of spring loss associated with the cord. My guess is the typical rider should see an immediate increase in power when this is added, although they should see a drop in endurance because they are not as well trained to the new motion. Unfortunately, I don't have my pm right now (it is at interbike) to test that.

 

[FrankDay]

I took it out for a 9 mile spin and it help up just fine to my surprise. More tomorrow.

Took it out today. One of the connectors snapped at 15 miles total. Probably would have helped if I had bonded these parts together rather than just sticking the pipe into the connector.

 

[CoachFergie]

The difference between you and me is I think this is important. You do not.

Just a coincidence that the things you find important in the sport require the purchase of a independent crank system?

 

[FrankDay]

Just a coincidence that the things you find important in the sport require the purchase of a independent crank system?

While what I consider important from a technique perspective does seem to require training with independent cranks to achieve the goal reasonably efficiently it doesn't actually require purchasing an independent crank system as you can make your own for as little as $6.00 should you choose.

 

[CoachFergie]

While what I consider important from a technique perspective does seem to require training with independent cranks to achieve the goal reasonably efficiently it doesn't actually require purchasing an independent crank system as you can make your own for as little as $6.00 should you choose.

And what you claim as important has no evidence to support it.

 

[coapman]

Hey Fergie, it is all about specificity of training. If someone wants to do something then they have to do it a lot. If I want to push more over the top then I have to devise a way of making me do this thing that isn't particularly "natural" and doing it a lot, so it eventually becomes natural to me. The difference between you and me is I think this is important. You do not.

If a stretched bungie cord was in action from the front instead of the rear it would produce a positive effect over the top instead of negative. There already is a much more powerful equivalent of a stretched bungie cord in the front waiting to be used, it's your arm and unlike your bungie cord, it has no negative torque effect at the bottom. In my special technique, you biomechanically connect the leg and arm action. Instead of pushing over the top, you smoothly powerfully slide the foot over, using your leg muscles in a different way in order to avail of that additional power from your arm.

 

[FrankDay]

If a stretched bungie cord was in action from the front instead of the rear it would produce a positive effect over the top instead of negative. There already is a much more powerful equivalent of a stretched bungie cord in the front waiting to be used, it's your arm and unlike your bungie cord, it has no negative torque effect at the bottom. In my special technique, you biomechanically connect the leg and arm action. Instead of pushing over the top, you smoothly powerfully slide the foot over, using your leg muscles in a different way in order to avail of that additional power from your arm.

The purpose of the bungie cord is to train specific muscles so the additional forces will be there naturally when the bungie cords are removed. All the technique is trying to do is similar to what you describe, as near as I can tell. Why you are so negative towards it baffles me as what I am saying seemingly supports your argument (just not the detail of how you go about doing it). Anyhow, I look forward to seeing what forces you actually apply to the pedal when you get the ability to measure them.

 

[coapman]

The purpose of the bungie cord is to train specific muscles so the additional forces will be there naturally when the bungie cords are removed. All the technique is trying to do is similar to what you describe, as near as I can tell. Why you are so negative towards it baffles me as what I am saying seemingly supports your argument (just not the detail of how you go about doing it). Anyhow, I look forward to seeing what forces you actually apply to the pedal when you get the ability to measure them.

You can't train natural pedaling muscles to unconsciously carry out additional work in the pedal stroke by forcing them by means of equipment to do it, because as soon as that equipment is removed, without clear objectives to follow, your brain will return to the most obvious, laziest or natural way of doing it. That's why I am so negative. These muscles are only being trained to cope with the resistance of the bungie cords, how do you know this extra effort by the muscles can be converted into crank torque and what percentage of downward max torque can these bungie cords force the muscles to generate.

 

[FrankDay]

how do you know this extra effort by the muscles can be converted into crank torque and what percentage of downward max torque can these bungie cords force the muscles to generate.

Well, that is the question we will be able to answer once these second generation PM's are available. Until then everyone (including you and me and Fergie) is just guessing as to what is going on and what they think they will be able to do.

 

[FrankDay]

BTW, I have the second iteration of the iCranks back to try. Mounted them today and took them out for a ride. Pretty much all of my "complaints" from the first version have been corrected. The balance is good now. There is one major thing that needs to be fixed.

1. They still don't have the stroke analysis available. I understand that ant+ doesn't have high enough data transfer rates for this so it is impossible with the current radio. I am told they intend to add a second radio such that the cranks will have both bluetooth and ant+ transmission capability so the user will be able to use whatever is best for the situation. Wahoo Fitness is coming up with a iPhone bluetooth app that will be compatible with the iCranks for data collection on the road for later analysis.

When these are done I think these will be ready for prime-time. The developer tells me they are expecting to be ready to ship before the end of the year.

 

[coapman]

Well, that is the question we will be able to answer once these second generation PM's are available. Until then everyone (including you and me and Fergie) is just guessing as to what is going on and what they think they will be able to do.

What is the difference between first and second generation PM's.

 

[FrankDay]

What is the difference between first and second generation PM's.

Do you actually read what anyone else actually says? This is all I have been talking about starting here. Anyhow, if you are too lazy to click and read then 2nd generation pm's will give actual pedal forces/torque around the circle to the user. 1st gen pm's just give total power out. Some give will give computed pedal forces/torque for half the circle.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Do you actually read what anyone else actually says? This is all I have been talking about starting here. Anyhow, if you are too lazy to click and read then 2nd generation pm's will give actual pedal forces/torque around the circle to the user. 1st gen pm's just give total power out. Some give will give computed pedal forces/torque for half the circle.

2nd gen?

Old wired SRMs with Powercontrol 4 were providing this before any other power meter was on the market.

 

[FrankDay]

2nd gen?

Old wired SRMs with Powercontrol 4 were providing this before any other power meter was on the market.

Perhaps you might want to check again as to what they were providing. It is impossible to provide with one power meter, located downstream from the cranks, the same information you can get from two located on each crank.

 

[acoggan]

That was my understanding regarding the SRM but Dr. Coggan, who is much more familiar with these products than I, said I was wrong.

That's because you said it was the PowerTap, not the SRM, that previously provided such data.

Regarding data sampling, SRM may lose it's edge there also.

The wired SRMs sampled at 200 Hz - I don't know if this has changed in the newer wireless models (Alex?).

 

[acoggan]

Well done Frank, you have done the same as baseball players using heavy bats, or runners pulling sleds and changed the biomechanics of how people actually perform in competition. Like changing the way one pedals none of these training methods have led to an improvement in performance.

Good analogies.