For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[Boeing]

you could always try back pedaling into a corner while under/over steering on a radical technical descent to .

oh my bad this is like tri guy thread or fit guy thread where skill set is not applicable

try pedaling in a circle.

 

[FrankDay]

Here is a pedaling analysis of an Olympic champion done on the iCranks system. I don't believe this rider is PowerCranks trained (a well-trained PowerCranker would never pedal that way across the top). What is interesting to me in watching this is watching what happens on the backstroke as she increases power and what she is doing across the top. It is clear to me that:

1. The higher the power the "less negative" work she is doing on the backstroke. The change there is much greater than the change on the downstroke.

2. She is doing essentially no work across the top. This is the area where I think she has the greatest potential to see improvement.

http://icranks.com/tech-information/torque-analysis-development-demo-video/

 

[CoachFergie]

Improve what?

Any extra torque across the top will detract from power being applied elsewhere around the pedal stroke.

If this is the claimed advantage from training with a independent crank then it doesn't jive with the numerous studies which all shown no improvement in cycling fitness from training with them.

 

[Tapeworm]

...Olympic champion done on the iCranks system...

...This is the area where I think she has the greatest potential to see improvement...

And the jokes keep coming...

 

[BroDeal]

Here is a pedaling analysis of an Olympic champion done on the iCranks system. I don't believe this rider is PowerCranks trained...

Not PowerCranks trained. Instead she spent her time doing useful training.

 

[FrankDay]

Improve what?

Really, you had to ask that question? I take it you (and some of the others who have had nothing to say) see absolutely no useful information coming from that data? Since the total power being generated is also equal to the average power generated around the entire pedal circle I guess trying to figure out how to improve the average power generated around the circle is a silly exercise to those who think technique unimportant. I guess we will have to differ as to whether such information could be useful.

Also, I take it you have no comment as to what is happening on the backstroke as the power changed. As they say, ignorance is bliss.

 

[CoachFergie]

Really, you had to ask that question?

Oh yeah I went there!

I take it you (and some of the others who have had nothing to say) see absolutely no useful information coming from that data? Since the total power being generated is also equal to the average power generated around the entire pedal circle I guess trying to figure out how to improve the average power generated around the circle is a silly exercise to those who think technique unimportant. I guess we will have to differ as to whether such information could be useful.

Knowing where the power is applied around the pedal stroke has been studied for the last 30 years and has added very little to the improvement of cycling fitness compared to research on training methods, recovery, nutrition and psychology.

Also, I take it you have no comment as to what is happening on the backstroke as the power changed.

n=1 so pretty irrelevant. Do some research with a decent sample size and get back to us!

 

[coapman]

2. She is doing essentially no work across the top. This is the area where I think she has the greatest potential to see improvement.

Let's say, she uses every possible means of improving her across the top torque, what percentage of 3 o'c torque could she expect to apply at 12. You have the powermeters now and should be able to answer that question

 

[FrankDay]

Let's say, she uses every possible means of improving her across the top torque, what percentage of 3 o'c torque could she expect to apply at 12. You have the powermeters now and should be able to answer that question

Well, according to you she should be able to apply 100% of the torque at 12 o'clock that she does at 3 o'clock. My guess is that it would take years for her to develop that ability without lowering the torque seen at 3 o'clock. The reason for this is it takes time for the CV system to adapt to the increased metabolic load such a pattern would demand. One thing I thought looked quite impressive in her pattern is at power she seemed to have a very constant torque from about 2 o'clock to 5 o'clock. If she just started her push 30º earlier I suspect she could easily improve that sustained maximum effort start at, say, 1 o'clock and continue to 5 o'clock. Bet that could be done in one season.

 

[coapman]

Well, according to you she should be able to apply 100% of the torque at 12 o'clock that she does at 3 o'clock. My guess is that it would take years for her to develop that ability without lowering the torque seen at 3 o'clock. The reason for this is it takes time for the CV system to adapt to the increased metabolic load such a pattern would demand. One thing I thought looked quite impressive in her pattern is at power she seemed to have a very constant torque from about 2 o'clock to 5 o'clock. If she just started her push 30º earlier I suspect she could easily improve that sustained maximum effort start at, say, 1 o'clock and continue to 5 o'clock. Bet that could be done in one season.

The earlier a natural pedaler starts the downstroke, the more of that power will be lost.

 

[CoachFergie]

Classic, you can just see that extra power coming from nothing

What vivid imaginations you both have.

 

[coapman]

Classic, you can just see that extra power coming from nothing

What vivid imaginations you both have.

Extra power comes from muscles. Use your own imagination for a minute and have a look at the effectiveness and efficiency of your own power application. Your pedalling ignorance restricts your max force application to between 1 and 5 o'c and even more important to consider, what percentage of that applied force is converted into crank torque. Knowing how to make better use of your muscles means you can extend max force application from 11 to 5 o'c with 100% torque return from that force from 12 to 3 o'c. How is that for pedaling effectiveness and efficiency.

 

[CoachFergie]

Use your own imagination for a minute and have a look at the effectiveness and efficiency of your own power application.

I will stick to using the data gained from well performed studies rather than half baked assumptions from watching one person on videos from the 1950s.

 

[FrankDay]

The earlier a natural pedaler starts the downstroke, the more of that power will be lost.

Well, if you are talking about pushing down I would agree but if we are talking about applying torque, I would disagree. Applying power across the top involves "pushing forward", not down. This involves using the quads, which kick the foot forward and delaying contraction of the glutes, which push the foot down. It is a timing/coordination thing.

 

[coapman]

I will stick to using the data gained from well performed studies rather than half baked assumptions from watching one person on videos from the 1950s.

After over 120 years of well performed research can you state one improvement that has been made to pedaling technique.

 

[sciguy]

Coapman,

I'd love to see a video of you using this technique that you're such a proponent of. It would make it much easier for us to understand and appreciate.

Cheers,

Hugh

 

[CoachFergie]

After over 120 years of well performed research can you state one improvement that has been made to pedaling technique.

The data would suggest ain't broke, don't fix and work on the areas of improvement like training, diet, mental strategies and technique improvements that do actually improve performance.

 

[FrankDay]

Coapman,

I'd love to see a video of you using this technique that you're such a proponent of. It would make it much easier for us to understand and appreciate.

Cheers,

Hugh

What can be gleaned from a video? The foot motion is constrained to a circular motion by the pedal/crank and pedal velocity is kept essentially constant by the mass of the bicycle rider system regardless of technique. The only way to analyze pedaling technique, as near as I can tell involves measuring the resultant forces at the pedals or measuring muscle contraction timing/forces (which can only be done in the lab and not all muscles are available). Hopefully, with the ready availability to the average user to gather pedal force information we will be able to answer the question with some certainty as to whether pedaling technique actually matters and which techniques are superior. I have made my prediction. What is yours?

 

[FrankDay]

The data would suggest ain't broke, don't fix and work on the areas of improvement like training, diet, mental strategies and technique improvements that do actually improve performance.

The data always supports the status quo…at least until better data suggests there is a better way. If one never asks the question as to whether there might be a better way one will never find a better way. Good luck to you and your athletes.

 

[coapman]

The data would suggest ain't broke, don't fix and work on the areas of improvement like training, diet, mental strategies and technique improvements that do actually improve performance.

Ain't broke, what about that dead spot sector where cyclists legs are idling when they could be applying max torque.

 

[CoachFergie]

What can be gleaned from a video? The foot motion is constrained to a circular motion by the pedal/crank and pedal velocity is kept essentially constant by the mass of the bicycle rider system regardless of technique. The only way to analyze pedaling technique, as near as I can tell involves measuring the resultant forces at the pedals or measuring muscle contraction timing/forces (which can only be done in the lab and not all muscles are available). Hopefully, with the ready availability to the average user to gather pedal force information we will be able to answer the question with some certainty as to whether pedaling technique actually matters and which techniques are superior. I have made my prediction. What is yours?

We have been trying to get Noel to explain just what we are missing from video's of Jacques.

People have been asking the question and testing hypothesis's (in well performed studies) for about pedalling for over 30 years and that is why the status quo remains.

 

[FrankDay]

Ain't broke, what about that dead spot sector where cyclists legs are idling when they could be applying max torque.

Or, if not max torque, at least some torque? And, how and why would anyone seriously argue that applying negative torque anywhere around the circle is part of an optimal technique?

 

[CoachFergie]

Ain't broke, what about that dead spot sector where cyclists legs are idling when they could be applying max torque.

Provide the data instead of half baked opinions and we will discuss.

 

[FrankDay]

We have been trying to get Noel to explain just what we are missing from video's of Jacques.

People have been asking the question and testing hypothesis's (in well performed studies) for about pedalling for over 30 years and that is why the status quo remains.

There are no "well-performed" pedaling studies. Asking someone to pedal in a different fashion and then measuring the effect would be expected to result in no improvement. The only study that could possibly show a difference would be one that took two matched groups and train one to learn a different technique and, while keeping training intensity the same, later measure to see if the groups remain the same or if one is now better (while confirming that training to learn the new technique had been adequate). No such study has been done.

 

[CoachFergie]

Several well performed studies on independent cranks that have done just that although the manufacturer of independent cranks would beg to differ. Wonder why?

They were good enough to be published in EJAP so they considered them well performed.