For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[coapman]

Even if that does not result in the best outcome?

Why would you not be more concerned with what produces the highest power output for durations/circumstances of interest/relevance?

You are making an assumption/assertion that pedalling a certain way will result in more power.

It's a testable hypothesis Noel, so test it and report back when you have some real data. I'm not holding my breath though.

Using the three techniques circular, mashing and "semi circular" pedalling, I have already stated which is best for the different requirements in competitive cycling, what more is there to test. I am not making an assumption that pedalling in a certain way will result in more power per pedal stroke without increasing peak force, I am doing it every day. It should be obvious to any sensible person that if as in natural pedalling the legs have to idle as they pass through 12 o'c instead of applying maximal torque there, and apply semi tangential force elsewhere when it could be fully tangential, this will result in less power output per pedal stroke. Ye are experts in the use of PC's and PM's but are ignorant in the use of cranks and pedals, I am expert in the use of cranks and pedals but ignorant in the use of PC's and PM's (too old) and therein lies the problem.

 

[CoachFergie]

ks and pedals, I am expert in the use of cranks and pedals but ignorant in the use of PC's and PM's (too old) and therein lies the problem.

So you have been saying for years but have never provided any supporting data despite the technology being available to test your hypothesis. You haven't even taught this to others locally so they have come out and dominated the cycling world much in the same way no Gimmickcranker has ever outshone riders who use normal cranks. At least what we do as coaches can be measured and the likes of Alex and myself can be pretty happy with our performance!

 

[FrankDay]

much in the same way no Gimmickcranker has ever outshone riders who use normal cranks.

??? Really?

 

[coapman]

??? Really?

Only another month to go in that latest PC research, any feedback. Why is it not possible to get these 2 nd generation PM's with standard cranks ?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

but ignorant in the use of .... PM's (too old) and therein lies the problem.

Why is age a barrier to obtaining data from tools that have been commercially available for over 25 years?

I had a client who leant the ways of training with power in the last couple of years - he races in the 70+ age category. He was definitely old school, having trained Olympic/pro cyclists himself for many years.

 

[CoachFergie]

??? Really?

Yeah I went there too. Present the data that shows a Gimmickcranker outshone a Normalcranker solely because they used independent cranks.

 

[CoachFergie]

Why is it not possible to get these 2 nd generation PM's with standard cranks ?

Because most people who understand racing and training with a power meter will only be interested in the overall power number not where the power is being supplied through the pedal stroke. Knowing that will not help them to test their fitness to determine if the training, recovery, nutrition etc is actually working.

Once a cyclist has their optimal pedalling technique sorted there is no further benefit from testing it on a daily basis so any extra expense in measuring it or employing a coach or sport scientist to analyse it is redundant. Like wind tunnel testing it may be a one off deal once or twice a year and makes far more sense than to spend money on redundant equipment.

Bit like Gimmickcrankers training and pedalling technique they will not use in competition. Never seen Cadel riding them in the Pro Peloton. If they thought they would improve performance then they would use them.

What is still not being discussed is the magnitude of performance changes with your delusions. Franks claims a 40% improvement in performance which would take me from D grade to Pro Tour. Now Frank has often said this is just a marketing claim as if he said a 4% improvement then no one would buy his product. We have a local researcher claiming a 4% improvement in 40km TT riders from taking paracetamol. That is a two minute improvement in a 40km TT. Sounds a little far fetched for just taking a pill.

None of the well performed research on Gimmickcranks has shown any improvement in cycling specific fitness so even 2-4% would be stretching the truth. Claiming 40% just shows how low Frank will sink.

So what magnitude of performance improvement are you claiming Noel. Or maybe Jacques was just the best in his day. Someone has to be.

 

[FrankDay]

Because most people who understand racing and training with a power meter will only be interested in the overall power number not where the power is being supplied through the pedal stroke. Knowing that will not help them to test their fitness to determine if the training, recovery, nutrition etc is actually working.

Really? Perhaps you could explain why the AIS is very interested in these and has been involved in their development for the last couple of years? Or, maybe they don't understand racing and training with a PM there. That must be it.

 

[FrankDay]

Why is it not possible to get these 2 nd generation PM's with standard cranks ?

Well, the iCranks come with our dual mode. You can choose to ignore the PC mode and only use them in regular crank mode if you desire.

 

[FrankDay]

Yeah I went there too. Present the data that shows a Gimmickcranker outshone a Normalcranker solely because they used independent cranks.

Present the data that shows that anyone has outshown anyone else solely because of any one thing they did. PowerCranks are simply one tool used by many Olympic and World champions. Ignore that fact at your competitive peril.

 

[coapman]

Why is age a barrier to obtaining data from tools that have been commercially available for over 25 years?

I had a client who leant the ways of training with power in the last couple of years - he races in the 70+ age category. He was definitely old school, having trained Olympic/pro cyclists himself for many years.

I did not grow up with PC's and never had the patience afterwards to sit down and read all about them in the same way as CF is not prepared to spend time working on or wasting time experimenting with pedalling technique. The same applies to PM's and their software. BrimBros are only a few miles away and I hope they can produce the goods and get it on a forum, maybe even before their PM's are released for sale (mid 2013 or later). The Wattbike is not suitable because it's bars cannot be changed to what I require.

 

[CoachFergie]

Really? Perhaps you could explain why the AIS is very interested in these and has been involved in their development for the last couple of years? Or, maybe they don't understand racing and training with a PM there. That must be it.

Is that like your claim the the BCF were using Gimmickcranks but you couldn't remember a name of who you were dealing with.

If you were really dealing with the AIS you would have signed a confidentiality agreement and wouldn't be talking about it on an open forum.

Yet another illustration of the lies you are prepared to tell just to sell your product.

 

[CoachFergie]

Present the data that shows that anyone has outshown anyone else solely because of any one thing they did. PowerCranks are simply one tool used by many Olympic and World champions. Ignore that fact at your competitive peril.

Yawn, I have coached World and Olympic Champions so my competitive peril is in damn good shape. What I can't claim is the magnitude my coaching helped so I don't make those claims. You clearly have lower standards.

 

[CoachFergie]

I did not grow up with PC's and never had the patience afterwards to sit down and read all about them in the same way as CF is not prepared to spend time working on or wasting time experimenting with pedalling technique. The same applies to PM's and their software. BrimBros are only a few miles away and I hope they can produce the goods and get it on a forum, maybe even before their PM's are released for sale (mid 2013 or later). The Wattbike is not suitable because it's bars cannot be changed to what I require.

Well it's your delusion. The means to test it have been available for years. Plenty of work has been done on pedalling technique and no one has yet to show a significant difference in fitness from making changes to a natural pedalling stroke even when they have the changes forced upon them (independent cranks) or are instructed to pedal in a different fashion.

 

[coapman]

What is still not being discussed is the magnitude of performance changes with your delusions.
So what magnitude of performance improvement are you claiming Noel. Or maybe Jacques was just the best in his day. Someone has to be.

That is something I would leave to researchers but what I do know is that when you switch to this technique from either circular or mashing there is a surge of power over the top and you have to move up in your gearing. It should be possible to estimate from a graph which shows continuous max torque from 12 to 3, the equivalent of 2-3 o'c torque between 11 and 12 and normal torque between 3 and 5 o'c instead of the normal sinusoidal graph. Because I believe I have solved the mystery of Anquetil's extra power is enough for me, I have no equipment for sale..

 

[M Sport]

I did not grow up with PC's and never had the patience afterwards to sit down and read all about them in the same way as CF is not prepared to spend time working on or wasting time experimenting with pedalling technique.

For someone promoting a supposedly superior pedalling technique I would have thought it was prudent to know about all of the other superior methods being touted. How do you now yours is the best if you don't understand the others? It appears from other comments here you don't even understand Obree's which shares principals with your method.

The Wattbike is not suitable because it's bars cannot be changed to what I require.

What bars does your technique require and are they legal for road and track racing?

 

[CoachFergie]

That is something I would leave to researchers but what I do know is that when you switch to this technique from either circular or mashing there is a surge of power over the top and you have to move up in your gearing. It should be possible to estimate from a graph which shows continuous max torque from 12 to 3, the equivalent of 2-3 o'c torque between 11 and 12 and normal torque between 3 and 5 o'c instead of the normal sinusoidal graph. Because I believe I have solved the mystery of Anquetil's extra power is enough for me, I have no equipment for sale..

Seriously, you imagine a different type of pedalling but you can't imagine the magnitude of the difference

 

[CoachFergie]

What bars does your technique require and are they legal for road and track racing?

Scott Rake Handlebars. Were illegal within months. So a delusional pedalling technique, no idea of the magnitude and requires an illegal piece of equipment.

Bit the same as Gimmickcranks which are banned in some some countries and you never see anyone in the Pro Tour race on them and come close to Franks standards for total immersion training using them.

Well done guys!

 

[FrankDay]

If you were really dealing with the AIS you would have signed a confidentiality agreement and wouldn't be talking about it on an open forum.

Yet another illustration of the lies you are prepared to tell just to sell your product.

I am not dealing with anyone at the AIS on this project. This product is being developed by an Australian company and has been under development for several years. The concept was first proposed to be put on a special exercise bike and they did so using two SRM power meters. Most of the graphs we have seen have come off of that product. However, the cost was enormous to do it that way and they determined that they can get both a more accurate device at a much cheaper cost by modifying my product. Here is a US web site showing this bike, the Biobike, with the PC's on it. It is the developer of the product that has told me they have been working with the AIS (I presume Olympic champion Sara Carrigan just didn't fall out of the sky when they got her pedaling technique video). Anyhow, I would have to wonder why the AIS would want to get a signed confidentiality agreement from the developer of a product that they were taking a look at it? Usually, it is the other way around. Either way, since I was informed by the developer that they had been working with the AIS I suspect that either the AIS didn't have a confidentiality agreement with them or the developer, somehow, wanted me to know and have the authority to tell me. As far as I know (in the US anyhow), the only thing keeping this product off the market right now is the various governmental certifications of the radios.

 

[coapman]

Well it's your delusion. The means to test it have been available for years. Plenty of work has been done on pedalling technique and no one has yet to show a significant difference in fitness from making changes to a natural pedalling stroke even when they have the changes forced upon them (independent cranks) or are instructed to pedal in a different fashion.

You still don't get, in all those changes they are still using the same basic technique in which max torque can only be applied betweenn 2 and 4 o'c and which produces the same sinusoidal graph. I created a completely different technique as I set about the objective of combining max arm muscle power with leg muscle power.The means to test it may have been around for years but I was not capable of using these means, that's why I need someone like BrimBros to do the work even if they have to be paid to do it.

 

[CoachFergie]

I am not dealing with anyone at the AIS on this project. This product is being developed by an Australian company and has been under development for several years.

No comment on the BCF?

We have used a set of the cranks on an erg we built at Massey University. Main benefit is they are fairly robust which is handy when testing sprinters who have a bad habit of breaking equipment. They also allow the quick changing of crank length although SRM offer a model that allows this for erg testing. Although quite impractical for field testing especially in competition.

 

[CoachFergie]

You still don't get, in all those changes they are still using the same basic technique in which max torque can only be applied betweenn 2 and 4 o'c and which produces the same sinusoidal graph. I created a completely different technique as I set about the objective of combining max arm muscle power with leg muscle power.The means to test it may have been around for years but I was not capable of using these means, that's why I need someone like BrimBros to do the work even if they have to be paid to do it.

You don't seem to get that this technology to test this has been available for years.

http://axiscranks.com/market-applications/bicycle-cranks/

Go knock yourself out. They are not vapourware like Brim Brothers.

Not capable, you were offered the chance to travel to test your theory but declined. Stop hiding behind petty excuses.

 

[coapman]

Scott Rake Handlebars. Were illegal within months. So a delusional pedalling technique, no idea of the magnitude and requires an illegal piece of equipment.

Bit the same as Gimmickcranks which are banned in some some countries and you never see anyone in the Pro Tour race on them and come close to Franks standards for total immersion training using them.

Well done guys!

All aero bars are illegal in road races. This new technique is a TT technique and Scott Rake bars are perfectly legal in time trials, they are also much safer than rest on aero bars. This technique can be used with normal bars but it means double handed resistance has to be used instead of the more powerful alternate single handed technique and if you are testing for performance, maximal possible power output is required. Anquetil had no option and had to use shoulder width bars.

 

[CoachFergie]

All aero bars are illegal in road races. This new technique is a TT technique and Scott Rake bars are perfectly legal in time trials, they are also much safer than rest on aero bars. This technique can be used with normal bars but it means double handed resistance has to be used instead of the more powerful alternate single handed technique and if you are testing for performance, maximal possible power output is required. Anquetil had no option and had to use shoulder width bars.

1.3.023 For road time trials and individual and team pursuit on the track, a fixed extension may be added to the steering system; in this instance, only a position where the forearms are in the horizontal plane is permitted.

 

[coapman]

1.3.023 For road time trials and individual and team pursuit on the track, a fixed extension may be added to the steering system; in this instance, only a position where the forearms are in the horizontal plane is permitted.

This is more of the same uci/obree type nonsense, even the level of the saddle is now resticted even though it can cause injury. When they see the perfect pedalling technique in action and the safety factor of Scott Rake bars, they will soon change again. A Coggan had a pair of Scott Rake bars. If I was in charge of the rules I would make it compulsory for all TT riders to sit on the rear of their saddles with sit bones where sit bones should be.