For the "pedaling technique doesn't matter crowd"

[FrankDay]

If Cadel can quantify how using Gimmickcranks for a very small portion of the off season played a role in his success six months later I'm all ears.

So, unless a TDF champion can QUANTIFY exactly how much he believes a training tool has helped him over the years (especially when compared to the quantification of all the other tools he has used, LOL) then you have no interest in hearing that he actually believes the tool has been useful to him and that he actually uses it, regardless of whether you believe how he uses it could be of any benefit? Is that correct?

 

[CoachFergie]

So, unless a TDF champion can QUANTIFY exactly how much he believes a training tool has helped him over the years (especially when compared to the quantification of all the other tools he has used, LOL) then you have no interest in hearing that he actually believes the tool has been useful to him and that he actually uses it, regardless of whether you believe how he uses it could be of any benefit? Is that correct?

Yes.

But we understand why you are so dead set against quantification especially from a power meter.

 

[FrankDay]

Yes.

But we understand why you are so dead set against quantification especially from a power meter.

Where do you get that I am dead set against quantification? I simply believe what you desire (quantification of the specific benefit of any and/or every product used in the training milleau), especially as it applies to one specific elite athlete, is pretty much impossible.

Anyhow, just to clarify your position here, as I understand it. You believe that it means pretty much nothing that a TDF champion chooses to use a product in training that addresses pedaling technique that he has not been paid to use and that he, at the same time, seemingly, desires to keep his use of that product quiet from the competition? Such a situation has zero significance to you?

And, you also hold that just because one is a TDF champion does not qualify them to say anything about training or pedaling biomechanics. And, if they do that at least that you, as an elite coach and everyone else, regardless of their background, should ignore them if what they say differs from what you believe? Is that correct?

 

[CoachFergie]

Where do you get that I am dead set against quantification? I simply believe what you desire (quantification of the specific benefit of any and/or every product used in the training milleau), especially as it applies to one specific elite athlete, is pretty much impossible.

It is very easy to test.

Anyhow, just to clarify your position here, as I understand it. You believe that it means pretty much nothing that a TDF champion chooses to use a product in training that addresses pedaling technique that he has not been paid to use and that he, at the same time, seemingly, desires to keep his use of that product quiet from the competition? Such a situation has zero significance to you?

Yes.

And, you also hold that just because one is a TDF champion does not qualify them to say anything about training or pedaling biomechanics. And, if they do that at least that you, as an elite coach and everyone else, regardless of their background, should ignore them if what they say differs from what you believe? Is that correct?

What I believe should have nothing to do with the matter. It is what I can provide evidence for.

Wow. Gimmickcrankers Cadel and Samuel have been claimed as having benefitted from using Gimmickcranks to the extent it helped their Tour de France success on your site.

How do you quantify such a statement Frank when it is clear that for Evans and Sanchez fail to meet your own criteria that a Gimmickcranker must fulfil sole use for 6-9 months. May I remind you that is your criteria for being dismissive of the three good quality studies that show no benefit from training with a Gimmickcrank.

But seeing your claim is on the site, my original question has been answered. You will contradict yourself to market your product.

 

[FrankDay]

How do you quantify such a statement Frank when it is clear that for Evans and Sanchez fail to meet your own criteria that a Gimmickcranker must fulfil sole use for 6-9 months. May I remind you that is your criteria for being dismissive of the three good quality studies that show no benefit from training with a Gimmickcrank.

1. My "criteria" are simply my "best advice" to new users as to how to achieve the quickest and best benefit from using the device. That does not mean that other use cannot result in improvement. It is simply that I believe that such alternative use will result in delayed and lesser improvement. There is nothing in my "criteria" that suggests that once someone has adapted that one cannot revert into maintenance mode.
2. No one knows how Evans or Sanchez have used the product in their training. The paragraph in question suggests that Evans had a lot of difficulty adapting to the cranks but that he perceviered and now feels he can do with being in "maintenance" mode. It is of no importance as to exactly how Evans has used the device or exactly how much improvement he has seen from using it. It is clear he has determined the device useful to his goals, otherwise it would seem he would have given up on them. Even it he is completely wrong and they have been of zero benefit to him, it would appear his use of them has not hurt his racing, can we assume from his recent success?
3. Those "good quality" studies were complete rubbish in examining the long-term benefits of the product. Our typical new user is barely able to go out for a normal training ride in 5-6 weeks, let alone seeing big benefit. A study involving part-time use for 5 weeks is highly unlikely to result in significant improvement nor the large power increases reported after 6-9 months of exclusive use. But, you haven't figured this out yet have you?

It is truly laughable that you, despite having zero personal experience with the product, demean the ability of the most recent TDF champion to determine, after his own personal experience, whether that product works for him or whether it doesn't.

 

[CoachFergie]

1. My "criteria" are simply my "best advice" to new users as to how to achieve the quickest and best benefit from using the device. That does not mean that other use cannot result in improvement. It is simply that I believe that such alternative use will result in delayed and lesser improvement. There is nothing in my "criteria" that suggests that once someone has adapted that one cannot revert into maintenance mode.

We are not interested in what you believe Frank. Despite a MD and Engineering Degree you continue to insult people's intelligence with your marketing nonsense.

You claim that the studies performed on Independent Cranking systems are worthless because the experimental group have not solely used the cranks for 6-9 months but appear more than happy to claim Evans when it is clear that he has used the product for far less time than any of the studies and in conjunction with other forms of training and normal cranks.

If he is such a fan of the system why did he not use Gimmickcranks in the Time Trial. People expected the result to be far closer than it was. Why would he not use every "potential" advantage possible?

2. No one knows how Evans or Sanchez have used the product in their training. The paragraph in question suggests that Evans had a lot of difficulty adapting to the cranks but that he perceviered and now feels he can do with being in "maintenance" mode. It is of no importance as to exactly how Evans has used the device or exactly how much improvement he has seen from using it. It is clear he has determined the device useful to his goals, otherwise it would seem he would have given up on them. Even it he is completely wrong and they have been of zero benefit to him, it would appear his use of them has not hurt his racing, can we assume from his recent success?

Of course not. He could have performed better!

Again I have no interest in what Cadel believes in. Only what he can prove.

3. Those "good quality" studies were complete rubbish in examining the long-term benefits of the product. Our typical new user is barely able to go out for a normal training ride in 5-6 weeks, let alone seeing big benefit. A study involving part-time use for 5 weeks is highly unlikely to result in significant improvement nor the large power increases reported after 6-9 months of exclusive use. But, you haven't figured this out yet have you?

My OP was not about the studies but that you claim Evans and Sanchez to be Gimmickcrankers when they don't meet your own criteria for one

By your argument the 1-2 sessions a week in the off season Evans alludes to on his blog or Pinotti (1 x 45min each week) is a waste of time.

You continue to ignore a wealth of studies that show significant improvements in power from a minimal training stimulus (12-18mins) in a period as short as two weeks performing various interval training protocols.

So what is it Frank? Either you should be able to see benefits from a minimal training stimulus using Gimmickcranks or you can't claim Evans and Sanchez as Gimmickcrankers!

It is truly laughable that you, despite having zero personal experience with the product, demean the ability of the most recent TDF champion to determine, after his own personal experience, whether that product works for him or whether it doesn't.

Well I have been quite consistent in advocating evidence based practice over belief based practice. In any of your studies did the lecturer suggest that what they were teaching was based on personal belief's over scientific evidence?

 

[FrankDay]

So what is it Frank? Either you should be able to see benefits from a minimal training stimulus using Gimmickcranks or you can't claim Evans and Sanchez as Gimmickcrankers!

Of course people can see benefit from "minimal" or "moderate" part-time PC training stimulus. People report such all the time. I just believe, after many years experience with the product, that the benefit seen from such use will be smaller and come slower than what might be expected from a more intense experience. Hence, the failure of these short studies to demonstrate statistically significant results. A study with a small cohort requires rather large changes to reach statistical significance. These studies, even though they all saw a tendency to bigger improvement in the PC group, simply did see change large enough to reach statistical significance.

I presume that each of our users use the product in the fashion that they feel will give them the optimum results. If ever there is any good data that shows that part-time use results in superior results than what we currently suggest then I will change our recommendations. I am not God and I don't have proof that my recommendations will actually result in best outcome. Therefore, anyone who is using the product, even if it isn't in accordance with our recommendation, we consider to be PowerCranks trained.

Just as a bike manufacturer has no problem telling the world that a great effort was done on their bike even though they cannot prove the bike had anything to do with the effort we have no problem reporting that an athlete who has a great result is PowerCranks trained when they have, in fact, trained on our product. At least, we don't pay them to use our product which should be worth something.

 

[CoachFergie]

Of course people can see benefit from "minimal" or "moderate" part-time PC training stimulus. People report such all the time. I just believe, after many years experience with the product, that the benefit seen from such use will be smaller and come slower than what might be expected from a more intense experience.

3 good studies where the training stimulus was higher (in particular Sperlich etal) than the claimed use of Evans and Pinotti would suggest that such a difference is not seen.

We have seen the claims of the faithful but none can detach any claimed or even manipulated benefits from other factors like training and recovery variables.

Hence, the failure of these short studies to demonstrate statistically significant results. A study with a small cohort requires rather large changes to reach statistical significance. These studies, even though they all saw a tendency to bigger improvement in the PC group, simply did see change large enough to reach statistical significance.

Nice revisionist theory there Frank. Some of those studies saw a decrease in performance from the experimental group in performance measures.

A wealth of other studies have seen significant performance improvements from a smaller training stimulus in a shorter period in time.

I presume that each of our users use the product in the fashion that they feel will give them the optimum results. If ever there is any good data that shows that part-time use results in superior results than what we currently suggest then I will change our recommendations. I am not God and I don't have proof that my recommendations will actually result in best outcome. Therefore, anyone who is using the product, even if it isn't in accordance with our recommendation, we consider to be PowerCranks trained.

Nice spin Frank. An absolute disservice to the work that Cadel and Sammy must have put in over the season and the way they have raced all year without the claimed aid of Gimmickcranks.

Just as a bike manufacturer has no problem telling the world that a great effort was done on their bike even though they cannot prove the bike had anything to do with the effort we have no problem reporting that an athlete who has a great result is PowerCranks trained when they have, in fact, trained on our product. At least, we don't pay them to use our product which should be worth something.

Most of the manufacturers spend a large amount of time testing and measuring their equipment to ensure their claims are legitimate. If like you they make an illegitimate claim you can rest assured (like strength training and beta alanine supplementation) that I will take issue with that as well.

If people really want to see what went into Cadel or Sammy and the other Tour de France riders I suggest they look at the Science in Sport and TrainingPeaks websites for the good oil.

 

[Megalodon]

Power pedals weren't gold, weren't a "crank configuration" and one wouldn't "notice the difference immediately" on a bike hanging on the wall. Only one product meets those criteria that I know of.

In the shed is a bike that has a special crank configuration. It is aluminium but golden coloured

Sounds like the golden color is describing the bike.

the pedals have a freewheel, clutched axle assembly

That really doesn't sound like PowerCranks.

 

[FrankDay]

That really doesn't sound like PowerCranks.

Some refer to the crank pedal combination as "the pedals". I don't know if you have ever seen a pair of power pedals but they really are not very distinctive looking. And, I cannot see any benefit to training on power pedals and racing on regular pedals so why would Cadel say that is what he was doing. To get any benefits from power pedals require locking the ankle on the backstroke. By doing this the rider can extend the effective crank length here, increasing the leverage, so more benefit can be seen from pulling up. This cannot be done on regular pedals. Since the products do different things we have actually had pp afficionados put them on their PC's to get the benefits of both products.

Oh, and we actually sent Cadel a pair of aluminum, gold colored, PowerCranks about 10 years ago, at his request. Funny how someone now might be inferring he actually used and still uses them, even though some of you don't understand why he might do so.

Of course, you are free to interpret those words however you want. People manage to deny the holocaust despite the visual and written evidence. I, and many others, happen to think those words can only be referring to PowerCranks, even though they were not mentioned by name.

 

[CoachFergie]

Of course, you are free to interpret those words however you want. People manage to deny the holocaust despite the visual and written evidence. I, and many others, happen to think those words can only be referring to PowerCranks, even though they were not mentioned by name.

Yes but we can supply pretty good evidence that 6 Million Jewish people were in fact murdered in World War Two. You have yet to provide any measurable benefit from Gimmickcranks that can't be done better using normal cranks and a proper training programme.

 

[Megalodon]

Oh, and we actually sent Cadel a pair of aluminum, gold colored, PowerCranks about 10 years ago, at his request. Funny how someone now might be inferring he actually used and still uses them, even though some of you don't understand why he might do so.

"Freewheeling pedals" clearly mean only one thing and that's not PowerCranks.

Believe it or not but not everyone with a gold or bronze colored frame or crankset is using PowerCranks. I've never seen anyone riding them but I see hundreds of powermeters, even the unpopular Ergomo and iBike.

 

[CoachFergie]

"Freewheeling pedals" clearly mean only one thing and that's not PowerCranks.

Believe it or not but not everyone with a gold or bronze colored frame or crankset is using PowerCranks. I've never seen anyone riding them but I see hundreds of powermeters, even the unpopular Ergomo and iBike.

There is no disputing that Evans has used a Gimmickcrank. He has said so himself.

The why was to correct an imbalance between legs at the suggestion of his coach the late Aldo Sassi.

The debate is whether the use of a Gimmickcrank in the offseason for a minimal amount of time in relation to the racing and training he would have done leading up to his victory in Romandie and France would have made the slightest difference.

Research on the subject that provided a greater training stimulus than the claimed 1-2 sessions a week in the off season that Evans did would indicate that there is no improvement and in 2/3 studies the trend was negative for performance tests and in the third there was no change in performance.

A side issue is the assumption that just because Cadel has won the Tour de France that he has any greater knowledge on the subject of pedalling, performance and training. We all know Eddy Merckx was the greatest cyclist that ever lived but when it came time to teach others he was hopeless as a coach and team director.

We should also not assume that because someone has a MD and Engineering Degree that they are not trying to pull the wool over our eyes because they have a product to market.

 

[TexPat]

Just read Niels Alberts blog in which he admits to using Powercranks. They must truly be a gimmick if the WC is using them.
How much does his endorsement pay?

 

[CoachFergie]

Just read Niels Alberts blog in which he admits to using Powercranks. They must truly be a gimmick if the WC is using them.
How much does his endorsement pay?

Just goes to show that even the very best have doubts in their own ability to train, recover, eat well and race hard and need a gimmick.

 

[Spider1964]

Just read Niels Alberts blog in which he admits to using Powercranks. They must truly be a gimmick if the WC is using them.
How much does his endorsement pay?

Ahh geebus Tex.. now look what you gone and done... we're in for another 28 pages of Ren & Stimpy going at each other like cats & dogs.

 

[Tapeworm]

Neils Albert uses Powercranks.
Neils Albert is a World Champion.
Therefore all World Champions must use Powercranks.

Logic is beautiful.

Fabian Cancellara lifts weights.
Fabian is a World Champion....

 

[FrankDay]

There is no disputing that Evans has used a Gimmickcrank. He has said so himself.

The why was to correct an imbalance between legs at the suggestion of his coach the late Aldo Sassi.

Could you let us all know the source of this information? Do you know when this recommendation supposedly occurred? Have you heard of any other riders Sassi coached who use PowerCranks?

 

[daveinzambia]

wow found this thread strangely hypnotic.

My only comment is I can see CoachFergie's point in bringing this up again in order to try and get Mr Day to contradict himself (and have to admit there is a bit of twisting and turning going on through out the thread) but i also have to say of course he is going to advertise the fact Cadel uses his product. if i made the tissues cadel used to wipe his nose at the end of the race i would now be advertising the tissues that won the tour de france. If it is known that Cadel uses the product and that Cadel has himself said he thought there was a benefit in using it then you would be an idiot to not plaster that all over your web site. even if it does contradict slightly what you have said before

I also have to say, from a point of view of someone with no medical background, that yes the Coach does seem to have a slightly unhealthy obsession with this topic. I can understand Mr Days involvement but Coach I am sure this is not good for your well being.

 

[TexPat]

Ahh geebus Tex.. now look what you gone and done... we're in for another 28 pages of Ren & Stimpy going at each other like cats & dogs.

Yeah, I know full well what the effect of my post would be, which is why I made it.

Neils Albert uses Powercranks.
Neils Albert is a World Champion.
Therefore all World Champions must use Powercranks.

Logic is beautiful.

Fabian Cancellara lifts weights.
Fabian is a World Champion....

Logic is beautiful. Humour moreso.
What I appreciate more than anything from a scientist is when one admits that the more they learn, the less they know.
I'm still awaiting Coach Fergie's response to my question regarding the quantification of the Placebo Effect...

wow found this thread strangely hypnotic.

My only comment is I can see CoachFergie's point in bringing this up again in order to try and get Mr Day to contradict himself (and have to admit there is a bit of twisting and turning going on through out the thread) but i also have to say of course he is going to advertise the fact Cadel uses his product. if i made the tissues cadel used to wipe his nose at the end of the race i would now be advertising the tissues that won the tour de france. If it is known that Cadel uses the product and that Cadel has himself said he thought there was a benefit in using it then you would be an idiot to not plaster that all over your web site. even if it does contradict slightly what you have said before

I also have to say, from a point of view of someone with no medical background, that yes the Coach does seem to have a slightly unhealthy obsession with this topic. I can understand Mr Days involvement but Coach I am sure this is not good for your well being.

Dave, you're spot on, amigo. This thread is hypnotic like an episode of reality television. I just wish Frank and Fergie would get a room somewhere.

Fergie, I'll come down to Shakytown and perform an intervention if need be.I suggest you mount some Q Rings to PowerCranks, ride 1000kms and call me in the morning.


Frank, you need a hug.

Oh, wait. What am I saying? Carry on gents. The question you have before ye has no answer!

 

[CoachFergie]

As stated I asked the question for my amusement and am not surprised that Frank has contradicted himself again.

Fear not I have a life. I'm taking a group of 29 juniors out of Snow and Quake ridden Christchurch for 2 days of track racing in Invercargill. Later in the year I will be back down there getting involved in some research on warm ups for our ever improving national sprint team and collecting data for my own research projects planned for next year.

All while coaching my wee stable of competitive cyclists including nine NZ reps which is a PB this year. I practice evidence based coaching not belief based coaching and have never asked my riders to take a leap of faith.

My challenge to Frank is to provide some real evidence that Gimmickcranks played any part of Cadel's success.

 

[FrankDay]

wow found this thread strangely hypnotic.

My only comment is I can see CoachFergie's point in bringing this up again in order to try and get Mr Day to contradict himself (and have to admit there is a bit of twisting and turning going on through out the thread)…

Could you help me out here. Where in this thread have I contradicted myself? Thanks.

 

[FrankDay]

My challenge to Frank is to provide some real evidence that Gimmickcranks played any part of Cadel's success.

Not just evidence, the proof is in his book. He has used them so that fact alone makes them a real part of his success. Just as he slept, ate, rode easy and hard, etc. everything he has done regularly over the years, as part of his preparation, has played a part in his success. PowerCranks are undeniably a part of the whole that made it possible for him to succeed therefore your challenge to show "real evidence" that they played "any part" is met. Thanks for that.

Further, I believe the typical jury would find the evidence of his continued use of them over the years constitutes proof that Cadel actually believes that his use of PowerCranks benefits his performance, even though, apparently, neither he nor I can quantify the specific amount of benefit to him. Apparently though he saw enough to convince him of the benefits to him (which is the way with most of our users) even though such evidence does not qualify as scientific proof to someone demanding of such.

 

[Tapeworm]

Powerbands work wonders too, just ask the professional sports people who use them.

 

[daveinzambia]

i am not getting drawn into the argument, I got involved in cycling to reduce my blood pressure not increase it. Will leave CoachFergie to point out any contradictions, he is much better at it than me. oh and glad to hear you have a life outside this thread Coach, in fact a much more interesting sounding life than mine!