Frankfurter Allgemeine doping article..

[Benotti69]

not a great translation, but you can get a good understanding from it. Scary reading, very scary

http://translate.google.com/transla...C584B4D548D49BFDC9~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

 

[Animal]

I forgot about KK. I wonder how he is. I wonder how he feels about what he found it necesary to do. Will he say anything?

 

[Benotti69]

I forgot about KK. I wonder how he is. I wonder how he feels about what he found it necesary to do. Will he say anything?

it would be great if he read the article and realised how lucky he was and says fock this shít its got to stop and spills the beans, but he's from luxembourg, small country and he comes from apparently a big cycling family so unlikely..

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

Don't you just effin' love how it's a cycling bash throughout, yet there's no mention of them several cases of sudden heart issues in germany's number one holy grail, football.

Ahhhh, delightful bias. NomNomNomNomNomNomNomNomNomNom

 

[Benotti69]

Don't you just effin' love how it's a cycling bash throughout, yet there's no mention of them several cases of sudden heart issues in germany's number one holy grail, football.

Ahhhh, delightful bias. NomNomNomNomNomNomNomNomNomNom

which is something other sport's journo's are to blame for as they know what goes on and are quite happy to turn a blind eye to it. It is sad that one of the hardest sports and where the sports stars are not overly compensated for their efforts gets such bad publicity, but that in my opinion is now even more of a reason to clean it up and now is the perfect chance.

 

[ulrikmm]

As a cardiologist, i will say that the most plausible cause of Kirchens cardiac arrest is heart disease. These cardiac arrests in otherwise healthy and young subjects are not unusual. We have perhaps 10 cases a year at our University Hospital, which covers aroun 1 million persons.

At present, nothing particular causes me to suspect that doping caused Kirchens cardiac arrest.

 

[Chef_Vodnik]

which is something other sport's journo's are to blame for as they know what goes on and are quite happy to turn a blind eye to it. It is sad that one of the hardest sports and where the sports stars are not overly compensated for their efforts gets such bad publicity, but that in my opinion is now even more of a reason to clean it up and now is the perfect chance.

Nah.

No matter what you do, you won't get that stain off the shirt.

Cycling's gonna be the ginger child of sports forever while everyone is sucking on footballs Bratwurst. Get used to it.

At least we, being sane people that can actually think for themselves instead can manage to see behind the curtains and enjoy it for what it really is: A spectacle.

 

[Cobblestones]

As a cardiologist, i will say that the most plausible cause of Kirchens cardiac arrest is heart disease. These cardiac arrests in otherwise healthy and young subjects are not unusual. We have perhaps 10 cases a year at our University Hospital, which covers aroun 1 million persons.

At present, nothing particular causes me to suspect that doping caused Kirchens cardiac arrest.

Well, going by your numbers it seems a 1:100,000 chance in the general population. How many high level cyclists are there? Maybe 1000? So you would maybe see such a case once in 100 years among them, all things equal?

Ok, I know it's a very naive estimate and cyclists=/=general population, so feel free to poke holes in it, anyway, I'm not a cardiologist. But I'm not comforted by your numbers.

 

[Benotti69]

As a cardiologist, i will say that the most plausible cause of Kirchens cardiac arrest is heart disease. These cardiac arrests in otherwise healthy and young subjects are not unusual. We have perhaps 10 cases a year at our University Hospital, which covers aroun 1 million persons.

At present, nothing particular causes me to suspect that doping caused Kirchens cardiac arrest.

how can you make a diagnosis when you haven't seen the patient or scans?

 

[Benotti69]

Nah.

No matter what you do, you won't get that stain off the shirt.

Cycling's gonna be the ginger child of sports forever while everyone is sucking on footballs Bratwurst. Get used to it.

At least we, being sane people that can actually think for themselves instead can manage to see behind the curtains and enjoy it for what it really is: A spectacle.

no the stain will never be removed completely, just look at the 100metres in athletics. Who is ever going to run fast and not have half the population going nudge nudge wink wink.....but if other sports were subjected to the same criticism we are witnessing in cycling well it would not be viewed as the dark arts of sport doping..

 

[Orinda8]

As a cardiologist, i will say that the most plausible cause of Kirchens cardiac arrest is heart disease. These cardiac arrests in otherwise healthy and young subjects are not unusual. We have perhaps 10 cases a year at our University Hospital, which covers aroun 1 million persons.

At present, nothing particular causes me to suspect that doping caused Kirchens cardiac arrest.

After reading that article I am impressed by the large amount of speculation about possible causes,genetic vs doping. It is time for epidemiologists to look into the matter;if there has truly been an increase in cyclists deaths at the same time epo was marketed then this would implicate doping assuming one controls for the increased number of professional teams since the 1950s. It takes money to do these studies and this would be a good use of Uniballer's fortune if he is truly interested in doing good for the health of his fellow cyclists.

 

[ulrikmm]

how can you make a diagnosis when you haven't seen the patient or scans?

I have followed this on the sideline for some weeks. See the original post on Kirchen. His ECG is normal. His coronary arteries are said to be normal. He has had probable heart rhythm or pumping problems before (nearfainting during classic, found in ditch unconscious during training session). Of course I cannot diagnose him - but the most likely diagnosis is either hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, arrythmogenic right ventricle cardiomyopathy or a chanelopathy (eg. long QT syndrome).

How can you tell that this is a doping related incident?

 

[ulrikmm]

After reading that article I am impressed by the large amount of speculation about possible causes,genetic vs doping. It is time for epidemiologists to look into the matter;if there has truly been an increase in cyclists deaths at the same time epo was marketed then this would implicate doping assuming one controls for the increased number of professional teams since the 1950s. It takes money to do these studies and this would be a good use of Uniballer's fortune if he is truly interested in doing good for the health of his fellow cyclists.

There was definitely deaths occurring due to EPO around 1990. As I remember the newspaper headlines, more than one young Dutch cyclist died at that time (was it even three? - the Dutch forum writers will know). One of them rode for TVM, as I remember it. And a bunch of Swedish XC runners died too, within few months. The EPO death would be to die in your sleep - the cardiac output is low at night, and the blood clots, obstructing the circulation in the lungs or heart. I have heard rumours of professional cyclists back then that would get up (alarm clock) at intervals during every night to exercise using the jumping rope in order to avoid clots. And of cyclists carrying Streptase (powerful clotbusting drug with potentially lethal/debilitating side effects) to use in case of a severe clot.

 

[Realist]

There was definitely deaths occurring due to EPO around 1990. As I remember the newspaper headlines, more than one young Dutch cyclist died at that time (was it even three? - the Dutch forum writers will know). One of them rode for TVM, as I remember it. And a bunch of Swedish XC runners died too, within few months. The EPO death would be to die in your sleep - the cardiac output is low at night, and the blood clots, obstructing the circulation in the lungs or heart. I have heard rumours of professional cyclists back then that would get up (alarm clock) at intervals during every night to exercise using the jumping rope in order to avoid clots. And of cyclists carrying Streptase (powerful clotbusting drug with potentially lethal/debilitating side effects) to use in case of a severe clot.

XC skiers. And follow-up found that a large number of them had myo-carditis. It's a leap to say a health problem in a particular person is dope induced and I think it does noone any credit when they say it without evidence. Even if Kirchen did dope, there are myriad other possible causes. Leave him alone until he gets better... I hope he does.

 

[forty four]

how can you make a diagnosis when you haven't seen the patient or scans?

he did not make a diagnosis he said what the probable cause was and hes right look into it. my friend a fit athlete died at 22 from an unknown heart problem it happens frequently.

 

[Anonymous]

how can you make a diagnosis when you haven't seen the patient or scans?

In The same way that people here can make a diagnosis that it is drug related when they dont have all the information.