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Frankie and Floyd phone call

May 25, 2010
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That would be one interesting phone call. Talking about the good old days. Its folks like Frankie who can really kick this up to another level. Only the Feds know if that happened, hopefully.

From the nydailynews.com posted in the links list.

After the notes surfaced and a predictable backlash hit Landis, he got on the telephone with former cyclist Frankie Andreu, now a television reporter at cycling events.

As the two talked, Andreu tells the Daily News, a feeling of sympathy settled over Andreu, who in 2006 confessed to using performance-enhancing drugs while riding with Armstrong's team. In Landis, Andreu sensed the isolation that he felt when he became a reluctant whistleblower and put himself at odds with Armstrong.

"I can relate to Floyd, getting shredded," Andreu said, recalling the backlash that he and his wife, Betsy, faced after they testified against Armstrong in an arbitration case. "We just got ripped apart, the same way Floyd is."

Andreu said he thinks Landis' allegations need to be investigated, at the very least so that cycling can find out how its anti-doping nets were so full of holes in those years. For Landis to even speak with USADA officials is a major bridge, given the legal attack Landis unleashed as he fought to prevent a competition ban and keep his 2006 Tour de France title.

"If anything, this is good for the riders that are clean because you can get away from the past problems," Andreu said.
 
I remember how Betsy was constantly criticized by Armstrong's goons on the DP forums. It's nice to see the Andreus vindicated and Armstrong now under investigation.

I'd love to see leeches like Carmichael and others see some time behind bars as well. Armstrong and his camp have been the true cancer on this sport. Kimmage was right.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Moose McKnuckles said:
I remember how Betsy was constantly criticized by Armstrong's goons on the DP forums. It's nice to see the Andreus vindicated and Armstrong now under investigation.

I'd love to see leeches like Carmichael and others see some time behind bars as well. Armstrong and his camp have been the true cancer on this sport. Kimmage was right.

It may be more correct to specify Bruyneel and his camp rather then Armstrong and his camp. Let's not pretend that Contador wasn't involved in all this.

I think you also need to take out Riis and his camp. Sastre, Spartacus, the Schlecks, Voigt... all part of the problem.

And Vaughters and his camp. Let's not pretend Vandevelde and Wiggins are clean.

And HTC-Columbia... look at them hiring Aldag and Zabel. Cavendish, Hincapie, Rogers, Kirchen... all connected to the cancer.

And Eusebio Unzué and his camp... the Banesto teams he ran (and the Caisse teams he runs now) were pretty heavily doped.

And of course BMC... Landis nails Rihs as well as Armstrong. Evans is on something now.


While some people might feel vindicated if Lance and his group go down from this... if it stops there then it's like crushing one cockroach you see and ignoring the thousand hiding under the fridge.

If we stop with JUST who Landis implicates, it will crush US cycling, but leave the doping problem in full force.

US riders will become like the French have been since Virenque went down in the Festina affair. Largely clean (or cleaner)... but getting few results because the rest are doped to the gills.
 

buckwheat

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kurtinsc said:
It may be more correct to specify Bruyneel and his camp rather then Armstrong and his camp. Let's not pretend that Contador wasn't involved in all this.

I think you also need to take out Riis and his camp. Sastre, Spartacus, the Schlecks, Voigt... all part of the problem.

And Vaughters and his camp. Let's not pretend Vandevelde and Wiggins are clean.

And HTC-Columbia... look at them hiring Aldag and Zabel. Cavendish, Hincapie, Rogers, Kirchen... all connected to the cancer.

And Eusebio Unzué and his camp... the Banesto teams he ran (and the Caisse teams he runs now) were pretty heavily doped.

And of course BMC... Landis nails Rihs as well as Armstrong. Evans is on something now.


While some people might feel vindicated if Lance and his group go down from this... if it stops there then it's like crushing one cockroach you see and ignoring the thousand hiding under the fridge.

If we stop with JUST who Landis implicates, it will crush US cycling, but leave the doping problem in full force.

US riders will become like the French have been since Virenque went down in the Festina affair. Largely clean (or cleaner)... but getting few results because the rest are doped to the gills.

Not really.

What did Livingston say about Ullrich when he was on Telekom?

The sport was cleaning up.

The cancer was in remission.

Then it came back.

Of course all dopers should be pursued.

It's just silly not to acknowledge that some are more influential than others though.

When Armstrong is ruined, those who want to take shortcuts are going to think twice.

Adam Myerson has it right though. Burn the whole thing down!
 
Jun 16, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
While some people might feel vindicated if Lance and his group go down from this... if it stops there then it's like crushing one cockroach you see and ignoring the thousand hiding under the fridge.
ls.

Actually bringing down the Lance/Bruyneel/McQuaid Cancer is more like killing the Queen wasp and then destroying the nest. Individual wasps can either leave the nest, or perish.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Not really.

What did Livingston say about Ullrich when he was on Telekom?

The sport was cleaning up.

The cancer was in remission.

Then it came back.

Of course all dopers should be pursued.

It's just silly not to acknowledge that some are more influential than others though.

When Armstrong is ruined, those who want to take shortcuts are going to think twice.

Adam Myerson has it right though. Burn the whole thing down!

I would love to know what Jan Ulrich thinks. He surely knows that while he tried to take as little dope as he could, he lost out year after year to a fraud with way less talent than him who just shot up more EPO and got away with it.

Or does Jan need to keep denying he "used" to avoid perjuring himself?
 
Nov 17, 2009
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buckwheat said:
Not really.

What did Livingston say about Ullrich when he was on Telekom?

The sport was cleaning up.

The cancer was in remission.

Then it came back.

Of course all dopers should be pursued.

It's just silly not to acknowledge that some are more influential than others though.

When Armstrong is ruined, those who want to take shortcuts are going to think twice.

Perhaps some new riders will. And US riders who might be afraid of the same treatment from US authorities on the subject might (similar to the slowdown/stop of French doping after the Festina affair).

But existing dopers on existing teams? Of course not. If they didn't stop after Festina, why would they stop after this... something centered around US enforcement... a country with very few races where a rider can be caught?

I've long believed almost all the riders are doped. I accept that because it creates a relatively even playing field. I want all or nothing... get ALL the dopers out or just institute new procedures to prevent future doping but ignore the past infractions. I'm nationalistic enough that I don't want a result that puts riders from my country on a lower point of an uneven playing field.

Will Contador stop doping if Lance is caught? Of course not. Neither will Evans, Basso, Menchov, Sastre or the Schlecks. Nobody stopped when Ullrich went down. Or Ricco. Or Di Luca. Or Basso. No non-French stoped even when Festina went down. Nobody has stopped with Valverde's investigation.

One rider... even Lance... won't make a difference with the doping. You have to have something that will totally clean house. If Armstrong, Contador, Valverde, Basso, Evans, Sastre and the Schlecks all get banned for life in a short time... THAT would do it.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Mongol_Waaijer said:
I would love to know what Jan Ulrich thinks. He surely knows that while he tried to take as little dope as he could, he lost out year after year to a fraud with way less talent than him who just shot up more EPO and got away with it.

Or does Jan need to keep denying he "used" to avoid perjuring himself?

Ulrich tried to take as little dope as he could?

I'm not saying your wrong, but that's a pretty bold statement.

For a rider brought up as a child in the east-German athletic training programs, who was a helper for Riis in his admitted-doping Tour win (finishing second), finished second in the "tour du'Dopage" and named in Operation Puerto... saying he "doped as little as a he could" is taking as much on faith as LA fans saying he never doped.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
I've long believed almost all the riders are doped. I accept that because it creates a relatively even playing field.

problem is, that's simply not true. Teams with more money have more access to better doping and methods--so if anything it makes things even less level. Postal's dominance sure seems to make that apparent.

kurtinsc said:
Will Contador stop doping if Lance is caught? Of course not.

I just don't think it's that simple. How do you know Contador wants to dope? I imagine that most riders would be willing to, and actually want to ride clean if they believed that the other guys were riding clean. However, when you have competing teams that seemingly have the whole game rigged, it's hard to even imagine doing so.

I don't disagree with your points about there needing to be a widespread crackdown. However, the alleged level of corruption with US cycling is so grand that the house here needs to be put in order right now. It's time to stop worrying about what's going on in Europe. For too long, the attitude seemed to be "if we're going to be competitive in Europe, this is what it takes, no matter what". It's time for that attitude to change. If it means US riders suck internationally, so be it.

I think I'd worry less about individual riders and worry more about the alleged corruption with the sport's various governing bodies. Contador isn't the real problem...
 
I have no doubt that many of the others were doping as well. I don't think Contador won clean at all.

However, none of these people chased down Simeoni or did what Lance and his camp did to the Andreus and others.

I understand this is a difficult moment for Lance fans and now the only argument you have is "everybody else is guilty too." I do take some enjoyment from the fact that Lance fans are now coming around to realize the truth cycling fans have known for a decade.

Better late than never, folks.
 
Jul 12, 2009
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I am surprise at how many people here are in the know with all the people sited for doping in this thread. I've been racing and into competitive cycling since 1982 and I must admit that neither I nor the people I hang out with have the low down like some of you.

Sure, maybe all the pros are doping. But I just don't know for sure what thier programs are. One other observation; it's been apparent that there are fewer new young riders getting into cycling lately. All my friends have been remarking about this fact. Hardly any new young people showing up. It's no surprise really. Anyone stick thier nose into this forum and the behavior here will surely turn them away. Things are not good in our sport.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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131313 said:
problem is, that's simply not true. Teams with more money have more access to better doping and methods--so if anything it makes things even less level. Postal's dominance sure seems to make that apparent.

Not any more then Indurain's dominance was due to superior doping by Banesto.

If the dominance had nothing to do with Lance's ability and everything to do with the doping program, I would have expected a Discovery win in 2006 (or at least a rider in contention).

Maybe the Disco doping WAS better... but not enough to overcome their team's lack of a prime talent GC guy. Perhaps Lance wouldn't have won all those if everyone was clean... but I think it's fair to say he'd still have been in contention. GC talent still had to play a part... or else Hincapie would have been up there in the results in 2006.

131313 said:
I just don't think it's that simple. How do you know Contador wants to dope? I imagine that most riders would be willing to, and actually want to ride clean if they believed that the other guys were riding clean. However, when you have competing teams that seemingly have the whole game rigged, it's hard to even imagine doing so.

It doesn't really matter. He's not going to believe he can ride clean unless something big enough to take out the majority of the dopers riding. I think all the riders know who's doing what (or suspect). If half to two-thirds of them get smashed... maybe then the reluctant dopers might stop.

But the Landis thing doesn't raise the chance of that happening. The Puerto stuff really had more of a chance.

131313 said:
I don't disagree with your points about there needing to be a widespread crackdown. However, the alleged level of corruption with US cycling is so grand that the house here needs to be put in order right now. It's time to stop worrying about what's going on in Europe. For too long, the attitude seemed to be "if we're going to be competitive in Europe, this is what it takes, no matter what". It's time for that attitude to change. If it means US riders suck internationally, so be it.

I think I'd worry less about individual riders and worry more about the alleged corruption with the sport's various governing bodies. Contador isn't the real problem...

I can't help it. I like seeing US riders do well. I don't want to see US cycling be like the French were the last 15 years... a couple of results from breaks but nothing else.

THAT'S what happens if you clean up your house but the rest is still dirty.

I really don't care about doping that much. I know that sounds bad... but I just don't. I want to see entertaining cycling races, and I'd like to see some of my countrymen in the mix on occasion.

I'd be happy if it all blew up and a clean playing field was created... but if just US cycling blows up but the rest is still doped... then I'd prefer it stay as it is.

I don't think an incremental approach will work. Get them all out... or pardon them all and place a MUCH stricter system going forward... say that if any rider on a team dopes then that rider is gone for life and the rest of the team gets a year long suspension. Make the TEAMS responsible for preventing doping on the teams by putting forward truly drastic penalties on the entire team... but forgive the past.

Or just stop testing. Any of them are fine... but the idea that just getting the guys named by Landis will in any way help stop doping overall is foolish. If Festina didn't... why would this?
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Moose McKnuckles said:
I have no doubt that many of the others were doping as well. I don't think Contador won clean at all.

However, none of these people chased down Simeoni or did what Lance and his camp did to the Andreus and others.

I understand this is a difficult moment for Lance fans and now the only argument you have is "everybody else is guilty too." I do take some enjoyment from the fact that Lance fans are now coming around to realize the truth cycling fans have known for a decade.

Better late than never, folks.

If this were just Lance, I'd have no problem with it.

But if something happens with Landis's statements, you're talking about naming virtually every successful US cyclist for the last 15 years... and probably the organization of US cycling.

As I said... I like seeing US cyclists do well. If something comes of this, but it's limited to the people Landis is implicating, then US cycling will become like French cycling has been for a while.

Very little chance of winning since many of them are fairly clean compared to doped competitors.

And for me... that would suck.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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bridgeman said:
I am surprise at how many people here are in the know with all the people sited for doping in this thread. I've been racing and into competitive cycling since 1982 and I must admit that neither I nor the people I hang out with have the low down like some of you.

Sure, maybe all the pros are doping. But I just don't know for sure what thier programs are. One other observation; it's been apparent that there are fewer new young riders getting into cycling lately. All my friends have been remarking about this fact. Hardly any new young people showing up. It's no surprise really. Anyone stick thier nose into this forum and the behavior here will surely turn them away. Things are not good in our sport.

You really think forum behavior has anything to do with it?

I'd point more to the fact that the majority of US races are failing. No fan interest, no strong youth leagues in most places to drive both interest and development, and little media coverage.

There's a cyling race pretty much every weekend from late January to late October... yet the only ones you can watch on a standard 100-channel cable or satelite plan number around 3-4 a year.

It costs 7-800 dollars to buy a starting road bike of any use. In many parts of the country... the closest races might be several hundred miles away... and they're high-crash criteriums.

In the US, it's not forums. It's probably not even doping... there is a lot of that in sports that ARE more popular that are dope filled (I can tell you some stories about the number of swimmers in the age-group ranks who have "athsma"). It's lack of media attention and cost to enter.
 

flicker

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buckwheat said:
Not really.

What did Livingston say about Ullrich when he was on Telekom?

The sport was cleaning up.

The cancer was in remission.

Then it came back.

Of course all dopers should be pursued.

It's just silly not to acknowledge that some are more influential than others though.

When Armstrong is ruined, those who want to take shortcuts are going to think twice.

Adam Myerson has it right though. Burn the whole thing down!

Boy you know different dopers then I know. Check out the recitivism rate at your local re-hab clinic. I am sure you have heard this word Denial.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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I don't agree with kurtinsc's blanket accusation of almost anyone who's enjoyed success as a racer in the last decade. It's one thing to be cynical and say that you suspect everyone in the peloton; it's another thing to name specific names as if it's accepted fact that each and every one of them were dopers. Maybe it's what he believes-- but I still happen to believe in things like due process. I also believe that some people are just better-rigged, emotionally and physiologically, for racing bicycles, and that this can result in wins. If kurtinsc has specific evidence about all the riders he named, he should share it; if not, he should lighten up a bit on the slander.
 
May 26, 2010
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kurtinsc said:
If the dominance had nothing to do with Lance's ability and everything to do with the doping program, I would have expected a Discovery win in 2006 GC talent still had to play a part

it has everything to do with the amount he took, LA good 1 day racer, not a GT contender till he started the program. He obviously had a program designed to make him top dog, not good to have domestiques out performing the boss...


kurtinsc said:
I can't help it. I like seeing US riders do well. I don't want to see US cycling be like the French were the last 15 years... a couple of results from breaks but nothing else.
at least the french can hold their heads semi high and not accept dirty wins, which mean nothing, NOTHING....except to idiots who have their heads in the sand.

kurtinsc said:
THAT'S what happens if you clean up your house but the rest is still dirty.
Yeah better to lose clean than to win dirty. Winning dirty is morally unacceptable to me and should be to all..

kurtinsc said:
I want to see entertaining cycling races
get a playstation if you want entertainment. PED's has led to lots of cyclists deaths and young cyclists, for what ?your entertainment. Get a life.

kurtinsc said:
I'd be happy if it all blew up and a clean playing field was created... but if just US cycling blows up but the rest is still doped... then I'd prefer it stay as it is.
So let the US dope as long as they win against the other dopers..no war on dopers but a war on terror......Great attitude, real cycling fan...
 
Dec 29, 2009
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2wheels said:
I don't agree with kurtinsc's blanket accusation of almost anyone who's enjoyed success as a racer in the last decade. It's one thing to be cynical and say that you suspect everyone in the peloton; it's another thing to name specific names as if it's accepted fact that each and every one of them were dopers. Maybe it's what he believes-- but I still happen to believe in things like due process. I also believe that some people are just better-rigged, emotionally and physiologically, for racing bicycles, and that this can result in wins. If kurtinsc has specific evidence about all the riders he named, he should share it; if not, he should lighten up a bit on the slander.

i agree. suspect all. test all. suspend all who cheat. it's the witch hunt that's "destroying" the sport, not the doping.

ed rader
 
Jul 8, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
It may be more correct to specify Bruyneel and his camp rather then Armstrong and his camp. Let's not pretend that Contador wasn't involved in all this.

I think you also need to take out Riis and his camp. Sastre, Spartacus, the Schlecks, Voigt... all part of the problem.

And Vaughters and his camp. Let's not pretend Vandevelde and Wiggins are clean.

And HTC-Columbia... look at them hiring Aldag and Zabel. Cavendish, Hincapie, Rogers, Kirchen... all connected to the cancer.

And Eusebio Unzué and his camp... the Banesto teams he ran (and the Caisse teams he runs now) were pretty heavily doped.

And of course BMC... Landis nails Rihs as well as Armstrong. Evans is on something now.


While some people might feel vindicated if Lance and his group go down from this... if it stops there then it's like crushing one cockroach you see and ignoring the thousand hiding under the fridge.

If we stop with JUST who Landis implicates, it will crush US cycling, but leave the doping problem in full force.

US riders will become like the French have been since Virenque went down in the Festina affair. Largely clean (or cleaner)... but getting few results because the rest are doped to the gills.

...two thumbs up!...
 
Sep 9, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
Not any more then Indurain's dominance was due to superior doping by Banesto.

If the dominance had nothing to do with Lance's ability and everything to do with the doping program, I would have expected a Discovery win in 2006 (or at least a rider in contention).

Maybe the Disco doping WAS better... but not enough to overcome their team's lack of a prime talent GC guy. Perhaps Lance wouldn't have won all those if everyone was clean... but I think it's fair to say he'd still have been in contention. GC talent still had to play a part... or else Hincapie would have been up there in the results in 2006.

Unless, say, I dunno, there was a major, sport-altering and potentially Tour-destroying doping ring that was uncovered just before the Tour, probably scaring a significant number of dopers off the gear. Hincapie i]was up there until the Dauphine -- I wonder what happened?
 
Jul 8, 2009
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131313 said:
problem is, that's simply not true. Teams with more money have more access to better doping and methods--so if anything it makes things even less level. Postal's dominance sure seems to make that apparent.



I just don't think it's that simple. How do you know Contador wants to dope? I imagine that most riders would be willing to, and actually want to ride clean if they believed that the other guys were riding clean. However, when you have competing teams that seemingly have the whole game rigged, it's hard to even imagine doing so.

I don't disagree with your points about there needing to be a widespread crackdown. However, the alleged level of corruption with US cycling is so grand that the house here needs to be put in order right now. It's time to stop worrying about what's going on in Europe. For too long, the attitude seemed to be "if we're going to be competitive in Europe, this is what it takes, no matter what". It's time for that attitude to change. If it means US riders suck internationally, so be it.

I think I'd worry less about individual riders and worry more about the alleged corruption with the sport's various governing bodies. Contador isn't the real problem...

...Contador might not be the real problem but it's curious that his GT palmares occured while riding three years for Bruyneel...and if Bruyneel goes down then what does that say about Contador?...everybody wants to blow this up and blow that up except where their favorite rider is concerned?
 
kurtinsc said:
If the dominance had nothing to do with Lance's ability and everything to do with the doping program, I would have expected a Discovery win in 2006 (or at least a rider in contention).

Disco had Basso ready-just OP impeded his TDF participation.

kurtinsc said:
I can't help it. I like seeing US riders do well. I don't want to see US cycling be like the French were the last 15 years... a couple of results from breaks but nothing else.


kurtinsc said:
If the dominance had nothing to do with Lance's ability and everything to do with the doping program, I would have expected a Discovery win in 2006 (or at least a rider in contention).

Disco had Basso ready-just OP impeded his TDF participation.

kurtinsc said:
THAT'S what happens if you clean up your house but the rest is still dirty.

When the Festina Affair took place, all the teams "reduced" their doping regimen, the only one who never did was Lance & Disco.

kurtinsc said:
If the dominance had nothing to do with Lance's ability and everything to do with the doping program, I would have expected a Discovery win in 2006 (or at least a rider in contention).

Disco had Basso ready-just OP impeded his TDF participation.

kurtinsc said:
I really don't care about doping that much. I know that sounds bad... but I just don't. I want to see entertaining cycling races, and I'd like to see some of my countrymen in the mix on occasion.

The French are experiencing a Renaissance while being "clean"-might take some time but if this investigations is fruitful-then we'll be able to move forward with an even play field

kurtinsc said:
I'd be happy if it all blew up and a clean playing field was created... but if just US cycling blows up but the rest is still doped... then I'd prefer it stay as it is.
then that's the same Hypocrisy LA & Disco based their motivations to dope.



kurtinsc said:
Or just stop testing. Any of them are fine... but the idea that just getting the guys named by Landis will in any way help stop doping overall is foolish. If Festina didn't... why would this?

because this one Extended for a DECADE in which were achieved 7 TDF titles-that's why this investigation must bring down LA, the Hog & Co.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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vrusimov said:
...Contador might not be the real problem but it's curious that his GT palmares occured while riding three years for Bruyneel...and if Bruyneel goes down then what does that say about Contador?...everybody wants to blow this up and blow that up except where their favorite rider is concerned?

not at all. I'm not making any claims about Contador being a clean rider (or a dirty rider). I'm saying that individual riders are not the problem, but that a completely corrupted system is the problem.

As far as Contador (and any other rider) though, he's wasn't business partners with someone who basically controlled the governing body of the sport which it was supposed to by policing? That's the fundamental difference.
 

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