From a doping point of view, what do you expect Froom in the vuelta?

[maxmartin]

Liquigas to the fore?

I hope not. Just look at who is in my Avatar.

 

[the big ring]

I hope not. Just look at who is in my Avatar.

My avatar-fu is not good enough to recognise the rider. Enlighten me!

Can't help myself, sorry, just really like Basso's nice, quiet, humble personality haha! And his ex-coach.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

pretty close 4th to 3rd. did you even read my prediction?

I did and he is nearly 3 minutes down on third.

 

[maxmartin]

My avatar-fu is not good enough to recognise the rider. Enlighten me!

Can't help myself, sorry, just really like Basso's nice, quiet, humble personality haha! And his ex-coach.

Basso's ex-teammate, winner of 2010 Vuelta, that is him climbing Bola del Mundo wearing leader's jersey.

 

[Kender]

My avatar-fu is not good enough to recognise the rider. Enlighten me!

Can't help myself, sorry, just really like Basso's nice, quiet, humble personality haha! And his ex-coach.

well i thoyught it was basso but apparently not

 

[maxmartin]

well i thoyught it was basso but apparently not

Giro is pink, Vuelta is red. I know the pic is too small to tell

 

[the big ring]

Basso's ex-teammate, winner of 2010 Vuelta, that is him climbing Bola del Mundo wearing leader's jersey.

ex-teammate? Nibali? They are on Liqui, or is Nibbles moving elsewhere?

I'm really confused now.

ETA: Ah yes. Going to squeaky clean Astana. Good good.

 

[Kender]

Giro is pink, Vuelta is red. I know the pic is too small to tell

i know but it looked pink to me

 

[Darryl Webster]

Well my prediction on Froome, IF he maintained the same form / regimen as the TDF was he'd win comfortably..so clearly I was wrong there cus he hasn't.
That said ,if 4 th remains his final position it aint no hero to zero situation ..heck no one can realy suggest,he,s going like a donkey! It is still a very impressive performance that does little to squash suspicion in a race were those ahead of him also give good cause for suspicion.
Doping or no dope the sight of Albert giving it attack after attack certainly makes a damn better race than the uk postal style of sky,s ubber boring TDF.

 

[maxmartin]

ex-teammate? Nibali? They are on Liqui, or is Nibbles moving elsewhere?

I'm really confused now.

ETA: Ah yes. Going to squeaky clean Astana. Good good.

oh well ASTANA paid big bucks and he and Sagan had too much conflict interest in ardennes classics. But he might have the same problem in Astana too.

 

[the big ring]

oh well ASTANA paid big bucks and he and Sagan had too much conflict interest in ardennes classics. But he might have the same problem in Astana too.

Good grief. I forgot about sprinter Sagan. Which is amazing given I watched the stage LIVE where he clawed back to climbers in a break away then nearly dropped them.

If I was Nibbles or any rider with half a chance in GTs I'd do the same, go for the bucks. Window is small to make a living and without the right ethnicity for a big pay packet (ie being British) you don't have many choices of non-suspect teams.

 

[Krebs cycle]

The nonsense in this thread is embaressing, as people desperately revise various paradigms of Froome's doping to fit his current performance.

There are many things that make no sense in this forum Jimmy. You know it, I know it, acoggan and several others know it, but many cannot join the dots. For example, in the "data from clean pros" sticky thread 131313 says that his best 20min power is 6.15 w/kg and 5.65 w/kg at ALTITUDE for 50min. Chase Pinkham holds about 6.17 W/kg for 10min and 5.88w/kg for 20min. Thomas Frei's Mapei lab data from 2011 show he can maintain 410W @ 72kg for about 30min (5.7 w/kg) (doped or undoped after his suspension? relatively stable Hbmass at least in 2011) but people question Roger's ability to sustain 440W for 35min which at 75kg is 5.87 w/kg. Also in line with this is Froome's power data from the 2011 Vuelta TT which show 5.8 w/kg for 55min. There are various published studies in the scientific literature which show that pro level cyclists can sustain in the range of 5.8-6.0 w/kg for 30min or so, and 6.2 w/kg for 15-20min.

So how is it possible that an undoped cat 2 level rider can maintain 6.15 w/kg for 20min and approx 5.7 for 50min, whereas 9th place at the 2012 TdF Jani Brajkovic's SRM file shows he was holding 6.2 w/kg for 17min meaning on the same climb Wiggins and Froome were estimated to be holding (about) 6.4-6.5 w/kg for 16min MUST be doped?

There simply is no evidence anywhere that Froome or Wiggins or Rogers are sustaining >6 w/kg for longer than 35-40min which is a performance level that was common place prior to 2008. All of those power output values fall below the top 3 or 4 lines on acoggan's power profile tables which are estimates of un-doped peak human performance levels.

Previously, many of the same people have argued that doping gives such gigantic performance enhancements that it can elevate a "donkey to a racehorse" something like 5% as a bare minimum. A 5% doping improvement in FTP would make Rogers' undoped power in the Dauphine 418W for 35min which is 5.57 W/kg. So that is well below what domestic level pro Chase can maintain for 20min and clean cat 2 level rider 131313 can sustain for 50min. Chase was 13th in the US U23 ITT championships in his early career. Rogers was 2nd at both the U19 and U23 World ITT championships in his early career. Same goes for Wiggins and Froome. If you take 5% away from either their estimated FTP or VO2max power outputs you end up with numbers that make it virtually impossible for them to have won anything at international level in their entire lives, but when you add 5% to their current numbers, only then do you see values that match the top 5-10 GC contenders from 1995 through 2007.

Oh but wait, I forgot, Team Sky hired a guy who worked at Rabobank when the chicken got busted and they don't speak out on doping like they did a few years ago. Yeah that explains everything.

 

[thehog]

The nonsense in this thread is embaressing, as people desperately revise various paradigms of Froome's doping to fit his current performance.

He looks human, he's riding normally. He's fatigued, normally. The parcours is so much more brutal than the Tour, the competitors are much, much tougher and Movistar and Saxo are attacking as a team much better than BMC or Liquigas managed in the Tour. Sky's tactics have also been appalling at times.

This was his big opportunity, first time as team leader, the chance to win a GT and establish himself as one of the top riders. If he was on a programme there's no way he would ditch it for this race, and the drivel about doper's fatigue or the various other theories how he's doping but not riding well are just red herrings spun by people trying to backtrack.

Dopers fatigue alright.

Have you ever doped yourself? Do you know what its like to extract that much blood and then infuse it for the 8th time in one season? Not pretty.

Alas I think he reached for the final bag today and he'll have a "surprise" return of form in the final few days.

Just watch.

Mark this post and remind me of it on Sunday - Froome the comeback to make the podium.

 

[Avoriaz]

Dopers fatigue alright.

Have you ever doped yourself? Do you know what its like to extract that much blood and then infuse it for the 8th time in one season? Not pretty.

Alas I think he reached for the final bag today and he'll have a "surprise" return of form in the final few days.

Just watch.

Mark this post and remind me of it on Sunday - Froome the comeback to make the podium.

I thought he was going to crash and lose many minutes? Change of opinion?

 

[2008885]

Dopers fatigue alright.

Have you ever doped yourself? Do you know what its like to extract that much blood and then infuse it for the 8th time in one season? Not pretty.

Since you raised the subject - have you ever doped yourself?? If not, how do know what it's like to extract etc etc

 

[Cycle Chic]

Froome loses minutes, minutes, minutes.

I thought he was going to crash and lose many minutes? Change of opinion?

NOPE dont think the Hog or I will be changing our opinion.

bwahahahahahahahaha

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

NOPE dont think the Hog or I will be changing our opinion.

bwahahahahahahahaha

So the rest of the peloton must have been suffering from doping fatigue as well right?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Dopers fatigue alright.

Have you ever doped yourself? Do you know what its like to extract that much blood and then infuse it for the 8th time in one season? Not pretty.

Alas I think he reached for the final bag today and he'll have a "surprise" return of form in the final few days.

Just watch.

Mark this post and remind me of it on Sunday - Froome the comeback to make the podium.

Can I remind you of it now? He's almost ten minutes down and close to being overtaken by Moreno. Must be saving his final bag for another day.

And Krebs, I've read the numbers aren't that impressive from Sky but it doesn't make a difference to some people's opinion. Over-performance can never be seen as proof anyway, yet they haven't even over-performed, just performed very well.

 

[lemoogle]

Can I remind you of it now? He's almost ten minutes down and close to being overtaken by Moreno. Must be saving his final bag for another day.

And Krebs, I've read the numbers aren't that impressive from Sky but it doesn't make a difference to some people's opinion. Over-performance can never be seen as proof anyway, yet they haven't even over-performed, just performed very well.

You talk like one bad performance on the Vuelta proves you right. It doesn't , there are many plausible scenarios, doper's fatigue is in no way a ridiculous though, or even that team Sky didn't like his arrogant behaviour during the tour and want to remind him that without them he cant pull it off. Froome might be thinking he's getting the same stuff as on the tour but they're not using it etc.
I'm not saying those theories are true, but don't think yours is just because of this.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You talk like one bad performance on the Vuelta proves you right. It doesn't , there are many plausible scenarios, doper's fatigue is in no way a ridiculous though, or even that team Sky didn't like his arrogant behaviour during the tour and want to remind him that without them he cant pull it off. Froome might be thinking he's getting the same stuff as on the tour but they're not using it etc.
I'm not saying those theories are true, but don't think yours is just because of this.

Those aren't theories, they are idle speculation. Doper's fatigue is nonsense because there is such a thing as fatigue: you tell me what the difference is? As for Sky 'punishing him' more nonsense, and while you say you're not saying its true, you're happy to spew such nonsense here.

And it's stuff like that the clinic should be embarrassed by. I see very little objective analysis and more emotive and biased statements by people that at the end of accusing someone of doping they're happy to say 'and he's a ****'. The more and more complicated the theories get to implicate riders and teams the more it reminds me of a gathering of blokes in tin-foil hats getting stoned and discussing lizard over-lords controlling the earth.

Often the simplest explanation is the true one, mumbling nonsense suppositions and conjecture only devalues your argument. Believe me when I say I am not convinced of people's innocence totally, but more so I am not convinced of their guilt.

 

[lemoogle]

Those aren't theories, they are idle speculation. Doper's fatigue is nonsense because there is such a thing as fatigue: you tell me what the difference is? As for Sky 'punishing him' more nonsense, and while you say you're not saying its true, you're happy to spew such nonsense here.

And it's stuff like that the clinic should be embarrassed by. I see very little objective analysis and more emotive and biased statements by people that at the end of accusing someone of doping they're happy to say 'and he's a ****'. The more and more complicated the theories get to implicate riders and teams the more it reminds me of a gathering of blokes in tin-foil hats getting stoned and discussing lizard over-lords controlling the earth.

Often the simplest explanation is the true one, mumbling nonsense suppositions and conjecture only devalues your argument. Believe me when I say I am not convinced of people's innocence totally, but more so I am not convinced of their guilt.

So what is your explanation? Because even if we assume froome is clean and there is no such thing as fatigue then I don't really see why froome would suddenly go from being crazy dominant in the mountains at the tour to barely a factor here at the vuelta.

Also , I don't think it's so crazy that sky would be punishing tour. Henao was allowed to leave froome behind, did they ever let froome do anything at the tour ?

 

[_frost]

Also , I don't think it's so crazy that sky would be punishing tour. Henao was allowed to leave froome behind, did they ever let froome do anything at the tour ?

Errm, pro cycling is business. Sponsors put money to get visibility and, at least according to the clinic view, teams are ready to fullfill the expectations at any cost. You really think they would give up the second GT win for this year just to give a lesson to Froome?

 

[JimmyFingers]

So what is your explanation? Because even if we assume froome is clean and there is no such thing as fatigue then I don't really see why froome would suddenly go from being crazy dominant in the mountains at the tour to barely a factor here at the vuelta.

Also , I don't think it's so crazy that sky would be punishing tour. Henao was allowed to leave froome behind, did they ever let froome do anything at the tour ?

I think you need to re-read what I wrote: I said there is a such a thing of fatigue. And that would be your explanation.

And Sky put someone in the break. Wow well that certainly proves your point. Sky are hanging Froome out to dry.

Sky know their race is run. It's a case of damage limitation, preserve Froome's GC standings and go for a stage win. If Froome was in red, Henao would have been there pulling for him. But he's not so he was allowed to get away and almost bagged the win

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

There are many things that make no sense in this forum Jimmy. You know it, I know it, acoggan and several others know it, but many cannot join the dots...

Yeah that explains everything.

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/aldo-sassi-the-philosophy-of-coaching/

“A cyclist has certain physiological attributes: VO2 Max, power output at anaerobic threshold, body fat per cent… It is like Formula 1: if you only have the driver and no car then you cannot win. You have to have the car as well as the driver. Some might try to show that if you have a good driver you could still win with a bad car. This is not true in cycling. Either you have to be able to produce six watts per kilogramme on the climbs or you lose.”

But of course Aldo was a dumba$$. Wasn't he the coach of your hero?

More important: who is riding at certain watts.

Back on topic: Froome is cooked. His power outputs have downgraded 0.5w/kg since the first week.

 

[will10]

Are some here really arguing that Froome's less-than-unbelievable Vuelta means he is squeeky clean?

Did these people watch the same Tour de France as me this season?