From a doping point of view, what do you expect Froom in the vuelta?

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Could be also (if i could trust JV here) that both are clean(ish).
Could be that Sky bend the rules as much as possible. It´s not a must that all their science and drugs are on banned lists.
I don´t know.
All i know is, that peaking a whole year or not is proof of nothing.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

OK, AC is no proven doper. He just ate the wrong steak. Ullrich is no proven doper, Armstrong isn´t, Valv isn´t at all... nobody is...

No, Ullrich and Valverde are in fact proven blood dopers and Fuentes clients, Contador is not. LA is a proven EPO-user, AC is not.

Yeah, that "steak" just leaped into his mouth, it's also just a co-incidence that he's worked in some dodgy teams with some dodgy employees (like Froome is now) and has been able to perform to such a high standard consistently...

But ofcourse it's Alberto, he attacks and stuff so he must be a good guy right?

He's as dirty as the rest of them, not on an Armstrong level but he's a bad one for sure.

What part of "mountain of circumstantial evidence but no proof" didn't you understand?

Why not on a Armstrong-Level?
He was protected by UCI until Seppelt of ARD made the clen positive public.
He blood doped from the very beginning (see Fuentes). He lies up today. He was found a 2nd time of doing blood doping (plasticzisers in the "steak case").
Even CAS couldn´t get around it and found him guilty.

I do not think Froome is an angel, but i would like it very much if AC is kept off winning any more GT´s.

Let's ignore the fact that he isn't a proven Fuentes-client for a minute and look at what Franke had to say. He mentioned 3 drugs. Test, insulin and some asthma drug. No mention of EPO or transfusions.

So, to summarize, two initials shared by another EF-client and allegations that you used test, insulin and asthma meds now constitute proof of blood doping.

 

[Lanark]

I sort of agree with FoxxyBrown. I don't want Froome to win because I think the guy is highly suspicious, but I'm certainly don't cheer for the proven liar, fraud and doper that is Contador (or Valverde for that matter) to beat him.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

No, Ullrich and Valverde are in fact proven blood dopers and Fuentes clients, Contador is not. LA is a proven EPO-user, AC is not.



What part of "mountain of circumstantial evidence but no proof" didn't you understand?



Let's ignore the fact that he isn't a proven Fuentes-client for a minute and look at what Franke had to say. He mentioned 3 drugs. Test, insulin and some asthma drug. No mention of EPO or transfusions.

So, to summarize, two initials shared by another EF-client and allegations that you used test, insulin and asthma meds now constitute proof of blood doping.

You sound like the former Armstrong defenders while i just use common sense. If AC is on the Fuentes list like Valv-Piti and Ulle who blood doped, of course that´s enough proof for me that AC blood doped too. Especially when he could keep up with the Chicken (full of Dynepo), Vino and all the other dopers. Or do you really think he just started to blood dope in 2010?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

You sound like the former Armstrong defenders while i just use common sense. If AC is on the Fuentes list like Valv-Piti and Ulle who blood doped, of course that´s enough proof for me that AC blood doped too. Especially when he could keep up with the Chicken (full of Dynepo), Vino and all the other dopers. Or do you really think he just started to blood dope in 2010?

You seem to have confused "I believe" with "it has been proven".

OP happened more than a year before the 2007 TdF, btw.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well, i believe in what has been proven (w/Fuentes & "The Steak"), to be exact.

 

[the sceptic]

If Contador and Froome are both 100% clean then theres no way Froome would be able to keep up with him imo.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Well, i believe in what has been proven (w/Fuentes & "The Steak"), to be exact.

Nothing has been proven with regards to Fuentes and least of all blood doping.

Steakgate provided us with compelling evidence of blood & EPO doping (especially the latter, imo), but not proof.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Fully agree. Nothing has been proven. Ulle wasn´t blood doping. He just forgot his blood at Fuentes. AC never doped. AC stands for absolutely clen... err, absolutely clean. It´s all about the steak. Armstrong is clean as Mother Teresa. Nothing is proven. The earth is flat. We are all happy.

Finally a clean Froome will beat a master clean AC. So what all the talk here?

 

[lemoogle]

I'd root for AC anyday I dont care how much more proof against him there is... No matter how much he's doping, he never killed a GT as much as sky killed this year's TdF, but yeah clearly they are 100% clean aren't they. I root for watchability , not utter destruction and boredom.
I get that you might want to believe some riders are clean, but I really dont see what about sky's riding makes you WANT to believe so much that you'll ignore every little bit of common sense you might have watching a boring dominated race telling you that something is off? seriously? results should not be the only thing one looks for in sport.

If you believe they're both doped , at least support the one that makes you want to watch.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If Contador and Froome are both 100% clean then theres no way Froome would be able to keep up with him imo.

Why not? If both are clean, it might be the first time ever for AC. That leaves him very vulnerable.

 

[sartoris]

If Contador and Froome are both 100% clean then theres no way Froome would be able to keep up with him imo.

What have you been smokin', sceptic?

 

[Sørensen]

I admire Froome, think he's an exciting rider and would applaud him should he win the Vuelta. However if he can ride two grand tours without having a bad day and losing time to some of the other favorites, I would find it difficult to believe he is clean.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Fully agree. Nothing has been proven. Ulle wasn´t blood doping. He just forgot his blood at Fuentes. AC never doped. AC stands for absolutely clen... err, absolutely clean. It´s all about the steak. Armstrong is clean as Mother Teresa. Nothing is proven. The earth is flat. We are all happy.

Finally a clean Froome will beat a master clean AC. So what all the talk here?

Don't be sarcastic when you're spewing BS. It makes you look like an ***.

If you can't understand the difference between Ullrich and Contador in regards to OP, you are dumber than I thought. Ullrich is a CONFIRMED Fuentes client, CONFIRMED blood doper and CONFIRMED EPO user. AC is a RUMOURED and ALLEGED Fuentes client and test, insulin and asthma meds user.

The plasticizer test doesn't PROVE blood doping either.

It really shouldn't be this difficult to grasp the difference between rumours, allegations, circumstantial evidence and proof, but here we are...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Don't be sarcastic when you're spewing BS. It makes you look like an ***.

If you can't understand the difference between Ullrich and Contador in regards to OP, you are dumber than I thought. Ullrich is a CONFIRMED Fuentes client, CONFIRMED blood doper and CONFIRMED EPO user. AC is a RUMOURED and ALLEGED Fuentes client and test, insulin and asthma meds user.

The plasticizer test doesn't PROVE blood doping either.

It really shouldn't be this difficult to grasp the difference between rumours, allegations, circumstantial evidence and proof, but here we are...

Where in the world is Ullrich a confirmed blood doper? He confessed to doping, but didn´t said he was blood doping. They found his blood at Fuentes,... ah $hiit, whatever blablabla... i am in no need to split hairs.

I go with Ashenden who was blocked out of CAS, to talk about the blood doping. Yet everybody knows AC is a blood doper. Think whatever you want. You argue like the ex fanboys of Pharmstrong. I am not into that. Period. I have a functionating brain.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Where in the world is Ullrich a confirmed blood doper? He confessed to doping, but didn´t said he was blood doping. They found his blood at Fuentes,... ah $hiit, whatever blablabla... i am in no need to split hairs.

I go with Ashenden who was blocked out of CAS, to talk about the blood doping. Yet everybody knows AC is a blood doper. Think whatever you want. You argue like the ex fanboys of Pharmstrong. I am not into that. Period. I have a functionating brain.

Ashenden never claimed AC is a proven blood doper, because he understands that's not true.

Ullrich, like Valverde, had EPO-laced blood in EF's fridge. That constitutes proof, which is why he and Piti were sanctioned. Jan's 2005 TdF doping schedule from Fuentes also included transfusions.

You claim to have a functioning brain, but it's hard to believe when you invariably refuse to prove it and I for one will not give you the benefit of doubt.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Ashenden never claimed AC is a proven blood doper, because he understands that's not true.

Ullrich, like Valverde, had EPO-laced blood in EF's fridge. That constitutes proof, which is why he and Piti were sanctioned. Jan's 2005 TdF doping schedule from Fuentes also included transfusions.

You claim to have a functioning brain, but it's hard to believe when you invariably refuse to prove it and I for one will not give you the benefit of doubt.

Again, i am not into splitting hairs. There is paid attorneys to play those silly games...

Ashenden was blocked. AFIR he wanted to talk about the plasticiser test/blood doping of AC. 1+1 is 2...
No one yet came up to say that he saw Ullrich getting his blood re-infused. May he was like Clinton or Basso...
That the spaniards protect their cheaters is nothing new. It needed the italians to bring down Valv-Piti. It needed the germans to bring down AC.
At the end of the day, common sense tells us that there is overwhelming proof we can believe in, that AC is a dirty blood doper.

OTOH, there is nothing yet against Froome. Nada. Nichts. Zero...

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Again, i am not into splitting hairs. There is paid attorneys to play those silly games...

Ashenden was blocked. AFIR he wanted to talk about the plasticiser test/blood doping of AC. 1+1 is 2...

That's merely a theory, since the plasticizer test cannot be used to prove blood doping. Much weaker than an abnormal profile, which actually can be used to sanction someone.

No one yet came up to say that he saw Ullrich getting his blood re-infused.

Not necessary.

That the spaniards protect their cheaters is nothing new. It needed the italians to bring down Valv-Piti. It needed the germans to bring down AC. At the end of the day, common sense tells us that there is overwhelming proof we can believe in, that AC is a dirty blood doper.

'Overwhelming proof' that wouldn't hold up in court isn't really overwhelming proof.

Claiming there's any kind of evidence of blood doping at the hands of Fuentes is just silly. There is none (in the public forum anyway).

OTOH, there is nothing yet against Froome. Nada. Nichts. Zero...

Give him some time. He was a nobody until 12 months ago.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

1. 'Overwhelming proof' that wouldn't hold up in court isn't really overwhelming proof.

2. Claiming there's any kind of evidence of blood doping at the hands of Fuentes is just silly. There is none (in the public forum anyway).

3. Give him some time. He was a nobody until 12 months ago.

1. We are not in court. Again, i go by common sense.
2. Agree. Ullrich did not blood dope. He is a victim like AC. Thanks god that soon he´ll be declared the true multiple Tdf_winner. Ok, just kidding here. Again, i go with Ashenden, Franke, the original none manipulated Fuentes-List and common sense.
3. I always state "not yet" with Froome. I always said he is doubtful. But for now we can call AC a dirty blood doper who finally was banned, while Froome only has suspicious performance jumps.

All i said in the beginning is that in don´t like the applied double standards in this forum. It was never personally against you.

I am just shocked how AC fangirls and others welcome this cheater & liar back and on the same time accuse Froome. For that alone i wish for a devastating loss for AC. The more mins the better.

 

[thehog]

I am doubting Froome (& Wiggins, and Sky in general) as much. But i don´t like the applied double standards by many here. AC is as bad as Froome, may even worse. We don´t know how good AC in reality is. He blood doped (at least) since his beginning days atop of CG standings.

Contador is probably still doping. But you can see the class oozing out of his skin. Froome looks like my grandmother on a bike. Actually worse. How he manages to win TTs and climbs defies logic.

I could watch Contador all day long. He's clearly the best bike rider this century. Period.

 

[maxmartin]

le standards in this forum. It was never personally against you.

I am just shocked how AC fangirls and others welcome this cheater & liar back and on the same time accuse Froome. For that alone i wish for a devastating loss for AC. The more mins the better.

there is new thread AC vs SKY thread, I think you could move your AC discussion over there, let this thread focus on the topic which is alien CF in the vuelta.

Wondering what kinda performance CF will show tomorrow?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Contador is probably still doping. But you can see the class oozing out of his skin. Froome looks like my grandmother on a bike. Actually worse. How he manages to win TTs and climbs defies logic.

I could watch Contador all day long. He's clearly the best bike rider this century. Period.

And before it was Ullrich & Pantani, before that Indurain. It´s always the same story.

I like the Froome riding style. Reminds me of Ullrich. BTW, all great GT riders were good at both (TT & climbing). I am sure something is not right at Sky, but the numbers by Tucker suggest that it´s cleaner now.

I don´t really like AC´s style since he had the hard-looking-at-each-other battles with Schleck. He is overrated. A doper who got away with it for wayyy too long.

But other than that, i appreciate your posts. Especially at the various Armstrong threads: Always optmistic when i suffer with concerns.

there is new thread AC vs SKY thread, I think you could move your AC discussion over there, let this thread focus on the topic which is alien CF in the vuelta.

Wondering what kinda performance CF will show tomorrow?

He will ride his tempo like today, while AC does his style (attacking, looking back, finally losing the sprint to Froome). Nothing alien like...

 

[thehog]

And before it was Ullrich & Pantani, before that Indurain. It´s always the same story.

I like the Froome riding style. Reminds me of Ullrich. BTW, all great GT riders were good at both (TT & climbing). I am sure something is not right at Sky, but the numbers by Tucker suggest that it´s cleaner now.

I don´t really like AC´s style since he had the hard-looking-at-each-other battles with Schleck. He is overrated. A doper who got away with it for wayyy too long.

But other than that, i appreciate your posts. Especially at the various Armstrong threads: Always optmistic when i suffer with concerns.



He will ride his tempo like today, while AC does his style (attacking, looking back, finally losing the sprint to Froome). Nothing alien like...

This is like say someone is less gay even when they're still gay.

Numbers don't show that riders are "cleaner". It shows that they're slower. Now that may indicate less doping or the thresholds are not exceeded like before but it's doesn't mean "clean" or "no doping". When there were no controls then the thresholds were high. Now they're are some forms of controls (OOC, BIO) which means you work your doping in defined parameters.

I see the throw away line here a lot in regards to Sky "well they're not climbing like Pantani" as some form definition of clean cycling. That's stupid.. No one will climb like Pantani again. But I bet 168 guys finishing behind Pantani were doping. Same applies here.

Doping is not always about performance. Its about recovery.

 

[Galic Ho]

Don't be sarcastic when you're spewing BS. It makes you look like an ***.

If you can't understand the difference between Ullrich and Contador in regards to OP, you are dumber than I thought. Ullrich is a CONFIRMED Fuentes client, CONFIRMED blood doper and CONFIRMED EPO user. AC is a RUMOURED and ALLEGED Fuentes client and test, insulin and asthma meds user.

The plasticizer test doesn't PROVE blood doping either.

It really shouldn't be this difficult to grasp the difference between rumours, allegations, circumstantial evidence and proof, but here we are...

I'll cut anyone slack over the seasonal allergies stuff. If you don't get them you really have no idea how bad it is.

A fortnight back it kind of snowed where I live. I noticed the next day I was sneezing quite a bit. It's warmer earlier this year. Pollen is propping up. I also noticed last week I was short of breath and labouring deeply with my breathing after simply doing 2km on a rowing machine. Shouldn't have happened. Same when I went on a bike route I've been taking. Same distance one week, next week muscularly I feel the same, lung capacity is definitely decreased.

So I was starting Cross Fit stuff this week. Went to the gym a few hours ago. Say 3 and a half hours ago at 1:30PM (it's 5PM now). We have 4 rounds of Cross Fit stuff to do. Run 800m, do 40 pull ups and then 75 push ups. I couldn't even do half of the second 800m run. So I did something else, went over to the doctors Clinic. I walked in, was told I could see a doctor. He gives me what I usually get, a ventalin puffer and a symbicort puffer prescription. Now the last time I needed these was November 2010. It is seasonal, it is random and it is very early this year, but when I need them, I really need them. the other thing that helps when I sneeze (usually occurs when it rains in spring weather) is pseudoephedrine tablets. The exercise I did today, it's intensive, at threshold. It's about recovery. When your lung capacity is restricted, well you can't do squat. Literally you can do squats, but anything that uses your aerobic capacity is going to sap you because your total lung capacity and oxygen ability is dropped. I'd say about 30-40% cut easily.

So I'm at home now. Just before hopping on I took my medication. Three simple puffs. I can state that it helps. I feel normal. Heck, I can take a deep breath fully without feeling resistance. I am confident if I went back to the gym I could do the whole four sets of cross fit stuff. Note, I couldn't even do one before. Like I normally can most of the time. So when people have a long documented case of such ailments, let them take medicine. They really do need it. They're not skimping anyone. From what I am aware, Contador has a long history of allergy related asthma and breathing issues. Also, the pseudoephedrine tablets work. They also are used by illicit drug dens to cut ICE and crystal meth. So they're cracked down on in Australia. You buy them, they record your name. WADA has a complete ban on them...probably used to mask other drugs, but they are useful to natural sicknesses. Shame really, but that's the way the rules work.

As for the rest of it. Keep going man, I like hearing it. You're spot on on that...I just figured people here could use some perspective on the breathing stuff. When you are sick, it is horrible. The basics become hard. Everything drains you. For me it's either muscular fatigue or oxygen fatigue. When it's just oxygen, something ain't right. Real hard strenuous exertion is always a combination of both. Always, no exception.

thehog is correct. Doping is about recovery. Performance is relative and that's what the dopers are relying on when they sprout their clean lies. That the public can't relatively confirm what is clean, only that they are slower than Lance and Pantani were. Big whoop, the ridiculousness factor is all still there. Also I agree with the class aspect. AC has it in shades. So does Valverde and Purito. Froome? Ugly bike rider. The fact he looks like a praying mantis physically and his weird limb and torso ratios doesn't help. Should have stayed off the AICAR, he looked better when he was his natural body weight. At least Contador has muscles...Froome looks odd. Really odd. Doesn't look natural at all.

 

[maxmartin]

What a freaky show from alien CF!