Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[hrotha]

Was Froome's lifelong asthma actually confirmed independently? It was damn inconvenient when it popped up out of nowhere back then, and I'm not sure what the scientific consensus regarding bilharzia and asthma turned out to be after all the discussion.

 

[The Hitch]

This kind of bears out what I've been saying for months, that Sky have learnt to dope with 'legal' prescription meds as opposed to the old way of EPO and blood bags...seems someone made a miscalculation though, oops.

Ok, so as you I’m a Sky fan and I guess you didn’t expect me or others to post here today (but I bet you were salivating at the prospect). In the past I have sparred with many a Clinic ‘beast’ (you know who you are) about Sky, etc. I guess now its time for me to man up, post and take the flak.

I have responded to the post above for a reason. I’ve always said that I believe that this is what Sky have been doing – pushing the grey areas : Xenon, Cortisone, Salbutamol, etc. within legal limits. I wouldn’t be surprised if Meldonium featured in there at one stage – the comments from Wiggins about being told what they could or couldn’t take, etc. suggests (strongly) that they were operating this way. ie Playing by the letter of the rules – but not the spirit.

So let me lay a few things out here based on Froome’s AAF:

1. Does this come as a surprise to me? No, not really.

2. Am I disappointed? Yes and no – you do what you have to do within the rules to win, unfortunately that is professional sport.

3. Do I think Sky are cheating? That’s a tough one – its been said before that what Sky are suspected of doing isn’t illegal (in a doping sense) but immoral. That to me supports the ‘grey’ area argument that I mentioned above- so technically not doping / cheating. This is where the rules need clarifying, etc. (and yes I do think these rules are exploited).

4. Should Froome be punished? Yes of course – rules are rules, BUT if there is some provable mitigation, etc.it needs looking at. To be honest I can’t see it so I foresee a ban.

I believe I’ve been fairly brave and honest here in posting and opening myself up for the inevitable flak.

Spud

I notice there are a lot of these "Hey everyone - this is what I think!!!" posts from the last remaining beliebers.

Trying to put a cloak of rationality on their opinion, they write long posts about just how complicated the story really is.
Arguments of the "maybe he is guilty maybe he isn't, its more complicated, we just don't know, this is a really complex issue and I am being rational about it" variety.

Its very clear what they are trying to do is to implictly create the illusion that the clinic are just irrational uncivilized barbarian haters who just hate froome because hate hate hate and in typical barbarian fashion jump on any media story without checking the facts.

They always emphasize the - "its just my opinion", in every post, sometimes twice, which feigns humility but in reality its just away for them to distinguish themselves from the mob because then they can claim that in civilized fashion they mark their own opinions whereas us barbarians in the clinic dont even do that.

Its not very distinguishable from the way fraud journos like Syed or Moore or Walsh would mock and cast down the likes of digger as beneath them because they, the great journos adhere to the great journalistic standards such as being sceptical to every story (unless the story comes from the mouth of Brailsford in which case it is accepted 100% as truth) or only accepting truth it a judge signs of on it (or if Brailsford says its true) whereas the plebian digger will just believe stories that haven't even been verified by court - the horror.

In the same way here, Spud and brownbobby play themselves are the representatives of polite society, here to set the mob straight, and of course very brave for doing so.

Lets put an end to this crap.

The rational response to this story isn't to park oneself on the fence (while looking down only at the sceptics) and treat Froome's positive test as a complicated historical question to which even the greatest minds in history would never find an answer.

Its to view him as guilty. THe only argument for a few years now in favour of froome has been that he didn't test positive, everrything else about him screamed guilty, most notably the fact that he lied about everything (always excused as - poor froomie just has a poor memory). You guys dont want us to go over the full gammet of arguments and reasons to doubt Sky, from the book series one could write about Sky's and Froome's lies to the tv soap opera that could be filmed about cyclings problems with doping, from the taint on all TDF winners to the continues weakness of testing etc.

Despite claiming to be commited to cleanliness and transparency they tried to hide the story, just like they tried to hide the jiffy bag story and then lied their teeth off about it, and as a poster above pointed out, these are just the stories that actually got leaked.

Keep acting as the rational ones if you want, in your own minds, but no one is buying it.

Nah ... figure ye don't have much time for the old barbarism after a hard day at the keyboard.

But ... you might qualify as a 'ruffian' (lite). Or a nouveau cadre in Mao's China of 1957 ... polish up the xenophobia and anti-intellectualism. A few interval sessions at steamroller threshold. Bada bing, bada boom.

Still salty about yesterday? Don't worry, it could last a while

In the meantime you can keep insisting that you aren't actually a froome fan and just a neutral

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

I'm with Jaksche and Digger with this. Blood bag. Huge amounts of salbutamol taken between two races, for weight loss. He then withdrew blood for a BB full of salbutamol. He probably wanted to reinfuse it for Angliru stage, but panicked after Los Machucos and get it back straight away.

This. The most reasonable explanation for the salbutamol spike.

No it's not, as someone else posted on the All About Salbutamol thread:

"Doesn't compute. As the blood you infuse would be diluted by your existing blood pool 20 fold. So initial blood concentration would have to be so high you would have an arythmia."

Plus:

Daniel Freibe: Have seen speculation over last 24hrs about salbutamol possibly being a masking agent. France National Anti-Doping Agency (AFLD) testing director Michel Audran told me today this is definitely NOT the case.

Assuming the above is correct it looks he took too much one way or the other, so it's a ban and end of career unless he can prove experimentally that he can take allowed doses and get the AAF's he got, from what I've read that seems unlikely.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

I'm with Jaksche and Digger with this. Blood bag. Huge amounts of salbutamol taken between two races, for weight loss. He then withdrew blood for a BB full of salbutamol. He probably wanted to reinfuse it for Angliru stage, but panicked after Los Machucos and get it back straight away.

This. The most reasonable explanation for the salbutamol spike.

I like this theory as well. He was probably using an inhaler during the race within the rules but the contents in that blood bag made it worse.

Memories of Contador come to mind. Different drugs but similar failed logistics!

 

[thehog]

You know when Froome simply “just the fat”, now it’s “some wired metabolism”

Sounds awfully complex.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Re:

I'm with Jaksche and Digger with this. Blood bag. Huge amounts of salbutamol taken between two races, for weight loss. He then withdrew blood for a BB full of salbutamol. He probably wanted to reinfuse it for Angliru stage, but panicked after Los Machucos and get it back straight away.

This. The most reasonable explanation for the salbutamol spike.

I like this theory as well. He was probably using an inhaler during the race within the rules but the contents in that blood bag made it worse.

Memories of Contador come to mind. Different drugs but similar failed logistics!

Agreed. Now where is Michael Ashenden when you need him?

 

[The Hitch]

I wonder where the originator of the term "cleans" - Taxus is and how he is doing

 

[gillan1969]

You know when Froome simply “just the fat”, now it’s “some wired metabolism”

Sounds awfully complex.

classic from Swart who was brought in to be a 'real' scientist as opposed to the pseudo variant

he may want to update that study he did to take account of that 'weird metabolism'....

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

I'm with Jaksche and Digger with this. Blood bag. Huge amounts of salbutamol taken between two races, for weight loss. He then withdrew blood for a BB full of salbutamol. He probably wanted to reinfuse it for Angliru stage, but panicked after Los Machucos and get it back straight away.

This. The most reasonable explanation for the salbutamol spike.

I like this theory as well. He was probably using an inhaler during the race within the rules but the contents in that blood bag made it worse.

Memories of Contador come to mind. Different drugs but similar failed logistics!

Do they ever test blood in competition, or is it only ever urine tests? I should probably know the answer to this, but i dont....

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Is Kimmage on vacation?
not a tweat

 

[No_Balls]

Re: Re:

Froome pulling an Armstrong:

That is scraping the bottom of the barrel.... it’s the “I’m sorry for the cynics and sceptics who don’t believe...”

It’s got Michelle written all over it mind you. Get Lance back, at least he could lie with conviction, this guy has crumbled and is now appeasing to the asthma sufferers around the world to “believe and remain strong”.

Sorry to say but this is end of Froome. He is fried one way or the other.

Poor froomey. He has to overdose prescripted dosages in order to becoming a Grand Tour-legend. He could die otherwise.

 

[MartinGT]

Re:

Is Kimmage on vacation?
not a tweat

Probably just given up like most

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Is Kimmage on vacation?
not a tweat

I guess he had a bottle of Jameson for breakfast to toast to the news yesterday, maybe still got hangover ahah

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

ote="MatParker117"][quote="
The team is likely screwed no matter what, Disney will probably liquidate it as a cost cutting measure once this Fox deal goes through.

If as seems likely Disney's buyout of Fox/SkyTV goes through then James Murdoch is likely become the CEO of the merged entity. And Team Sky is of course James Murdoch's baby. So I wouldn't bank on the plug being pulled on Team Sky. After all Murdoch is shameless when it comes to scandals. He's a good old fashioned win at any cost guy

Indeed it was James Murdoch who gave Brailsfraud a huge bollocking after Team Sky's failed 2010 season. From there Brailsfraud hired Leinders and Sutton told Wiggins he had to start preparing properly. Echoes of the bollockings James Murdoch gave to News of the World executives if the didn't get the big scoops. From there we got the phone hacking scandal

Bob Iger will remain through 2021, think no matter what Disney will fold the team.[/quote]

Well let's hope so enough is enough eh

But James Murdoch will be there for a while and may get a senior position in the new company. Although fair to say Murdoch, and for that matter Brailsfraud, don't fit Disney's squeaky clean image

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/14/rupert-murdochs-60bn-disney-deal-reshapes-his-media-empire]https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/dec/14/rupert-murdochs-60bn-disney-deal-reshapes-his-media-empire

'Disney chief executive Bob Iger has signed a contract extension to continue to run the business until 2021. James Murdoch, the chief executive of 21st Century Fox, has not been named in the new corporate structure but Iger said that discussions are ongoing about a potential role. “James and I have had lot of conversations about the future of these companies,” said Iger, on a call with analysts. “He has been great throughout this process. He will be integral to helping integrate the companies over a number of months. During that period of time we will continue to discuss whether there is a role for him here or not.” '

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Froome pulling an Armstrong:

That is scraping the bottom of the barrel.... it’s the “I’m sorry for the cynics and sceptics who don’t believe...”

It’s got Michelle written all over it mind you. Get Lance back, at least he could lie with conviction, this guy has crumbled and is now appeasing to the asthma sufferers around the world to “believe and remain strong”.

Sorry to say but this is end of Froome. He is fried one way or the other.

Poor froomey. He has to overdose prescripted dosages in order to becoming a Tour de France-legend. He could die otherwise.

from this can we conclude that losing time to Nibali on the preceding stage is an "emergency situation"?

more comedy gold from our hapless hero.... :lol:

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

I'm with Jaksche and Digger with this. Blood bag. Huge amounts of salbutamol taken between two races, for weight loss. He then withdrew blood for a BB full of salbutamol. He probably wanted to reinfuse it for Angliru stage, but panicked after Los Machucos and get it back straight away.

This. The most reasonable explanation for the salbutamol spike.

I like this theory as well. He was probably using an inhaler during the race within the rules but the contents in that blood bag made it worse.

Memories of Contador come to mind. Different drugs but similar failed logistics!

Do they ever test blood in competition, or is it only ever urine tests? I should probably know the answer to this, but i dont....

As I understand it is mostly urine tests because of the difficulty of drawing blood during competition.

Having said that it could have happened that the draw blood during the rest days or during the days before the competition. It was discussed a while back and I have difficulty remembering now.

 

[hfer07]

Re:

Froome pulling an Armstrong:

P.A.T.H.E.T.I.C.

So was Froome in a state of emergency when he doubled up his puffs?
You know what? Let him tweet rubbish like that when he feels like, because it seems the pressure is beginning to boil up on his mind

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

Froome pulling an Armstrong:

P.A.T.H.E.T.I.C.

So was Froome in a state of emergency when he doubled up his puffs?
You know what? Let him tweet rubbish like that when he feels like, because it seems the pressure is beginning to boil up on his mind

To be fair, that is most likely written by Michelle. Froome couldn't really put that much thought into it.

 

[thehog]

Im loving the hashtag #asthma :lol:

Together with Dawg we will cure asthma!

 

[GraftPunk]

Re:

I wonder where the originator of the term "cleans" - Taxus is and how he is doing

You have to say his name three times in a row in order to summon him.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

I'm with Jaksche and Digger with this. Blood bag. Huge amounts of salbutamol taken between two races, for weight loss. He then withdrew blood for a BB full of salbutamol. He probably wanted to reinfuse it for Angliru stage, but panicked after Los Machucos and get it back straight away.

This. The most reasonable explanation for the salbutamol spike.

I like this theory as well. He was probably using an inhaler during the race within the rules but the contents in that blood bag made it worse.

Memories of Contador come to mind. Different drugs but similar failed logistics!

Do they ever test blood in competition, or is it only ever urine tests? I should probably know the answer to this, but i dont....

As I understand it is mostly urine tests because of the difficulty of drawing blood during competition.

Having said that it could have happened that the draw blood during the rest days or during the days before the competition. It was discussed a while back and I have difficulty remembering now.

I would guess this to be the case. Just pondering the likelihood of blood bags still being used in competition. IF regular blood testing was being carried out, i'd guess it would almost eliminate the practice.
Over the course of a GT, the blood passport would show a natural decline in HCT levels. The sudden spike that would inevitably come with the blood bag would be a huge flashing beacon on the Athletes Biological Passport.
But if it's just urine tests, then it's a possibility, i'm sure there are ways to hide the markers of a transfusion in urine tests.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Wow i am shocked. He should of course at least get a year and the vuelta taken away from him. I don't believe people with astma should be riding pro cycling.

Overwhelmingly, they're not.

Don't understand why anyone buys this old doper's saw. No one with Asthma is going to test at that level, it's pure doping. OOC doping re-injected by blood or some other such nonsense. The why doesn't matter. Repeating the talking points of these clowns just gives them some small bit of credibility. Let's all be a little more discerning with what we're willing to swallow.

 

[bigcog]

Interesting, the dehydration excuse or partial excuse for exceeding limit can be tested via the urine sample taken:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/q-a-why-has-chris-froome-been-reported-for-an-adverse-finding-and-what-is-the-next-step-dk55vd8mc

In that case, how can it be proved either way?
It is up to Froome to prove that the abnormal result was only down to him taking the permitted therapeutic dose. He will have to take a pharmacokinetic test, which measures metabolism and excretion rates during exercise. He will also be expected to provide evidence that he only used his inhaler within the permitted limits. Analysis of his urine sample should be able to determine his level of dehydration at the time he provided it.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Everyone laughing at Chris Froome, Sky, Dave Brailsford and all the other hypocrites out there that no doubt deserve this fate seem to be missing the bigger picture in that this is AWFUL for pro cycling! A four time Tour De France champion has just been given back an AAF and people are laughing about it like it's funny or good for cycling when it's not funny at all, although it does feel good to be proven right it's not a laughing matter if you're a fan of pro cycling. I suppose the snipers of the world are having a good time with this but personally, I think this is just another black mark on a sport that has too many black marks to it's credit.

I love pro cycling and feel like I've been punched in the gut even though I'm not at all a Chris Froome or Team Sky fan.

Someday, all these doping scandals are going to catch up to the sport, is this the day?

Maybe at some point people will figure out it's bad for cycling that riders cheat, rather than bad for cycling that the cheaters test positive. I know, I'm a dreamer.

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

As I understand it is mostly urine tests because of the difficulty of drawing blood during competition.

Having said that it could have happened that the draw blood during the rest days or during the days before the competition. It was discussed a while back and I have difficulty remembering now.

I would guess this to be the case. Just pondering the likelihood of blood bags still being used in competition. IF regular blood testing was being carried out, i'd guess it would almost eliminate the practice.
Over the course of a GT, the blood passport would show a natural decline in HCT levels. The sudden spike that would inevitably come with the blood bag would be a huge flashing beacon on the Athletes Biological Passport.
But if it's just urine tests, then it's a possibility, i'm sure there are ways to hide the markers of a transfusion in urine tests.

Read the All About Salbutamol thread, Merckx Index explains why a contaminated blood bag is pretty much out of the question.