Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Netserk]

I find it very likely that he did a bag (the performance boost from one day to the next implies that). The question is rather if the bag was dirty, and if so how much it contributed with to the 2000.

I also find it likely that Salbutamol is part of his drug program.

...

With regards to the UCI's role so far: I don't find it alarming at all. It wasn't UCI who broke the news of Ulissi's positive either. In that regard, it's not like Contador's case.

 

[B_Ugli]

Not sure if posted, so apologies if so. But I found this interesting:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/angel-hernandez-i-no-longer-dope-athletes-but-pretty-much-everyone-else-does/

What about asthma inhalers? So often we see top-level endurance athletes sucking on inhalers, a sight at odds with most people’s childhood memories of asthmatic classmates’ loathing of aerobic exercise. Could it be the humble asthma inhaler holds performance-enhancing qualities?

‘I call it the “transporter”,’ he says. ‘It opens and expands not only your lung capacity but also your pulmonary capability, so it has improved capacity to move the blood cells…

‘In other words, if you were using EPO, or if you were using another substance like EPO, it would help you to boost endurance even more. It is like multiplying the effects by between three and five times.’

He points out some athletes are using the pumps legitimately because they have what he calls ‘induced asthma’ from training, but that others are cheating by conning doctors into giving them medical letters stating that they have the condition, letters that no anti-doping agency on the planet can argue with. ‘It’s like a green light for doping,’ he says.

And this is the crux of it.

Drug taking it would seem is a recipe and a recipe that Sky have got down to a fine art. Any one substance in and of itself means nothing but the combination of drugs used together to drop weight, increase lean muscle, increase oxygen intake and red blood cell count is the holy grail of endurance PEDS.

So like old Dave boy Brailsford says you are looking for small percentages in marginal gains

1% triamcinilone to drop weight
1% testosterone to increase muscle
1% salbutamol to maximize the effects of blood manipulation
1% micro dosing of EPO

We do things the right way and a 4% aggregation of marginal gains is the within the rules or as old wonder boy used to say I have never tested positive.

 

[Bolder]

Re:

I'm leaning more and more towards the possibility that Froome and other "asthmatics" don't use inhalers except for show. That huge spike is easier to explain if he took salbutamol tablets or injections. Can the tests detect the way the subtance was taken? I've read something about this, but nothing definitive so far.

I've long thought this (though as the husband and parent of asthmatics, I have deep respect for anyone who suffers from the condition). But we all know that there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will diagnose any number of issues for a price.

The more informed articles like the one in VeloNews, the more I think Froome has a serious problem. As per VN, the onus is on him to show how a threshold drug could reasonably appear at 2X the threshold. I can think of any number of ways he could introduce "reasonable doubt," as in a court of law. But the CAS/WADA is not a court of law and the test is not "reasonable doubt."

Another question is -- will Sky really pull out all the stops to defend him? Because if they do and they fail to make a case, it could jeopardize the whole operation. On the other hand, throwing him overboard could could open the door to a cooperation deal with anti-doping authorities...

 

[ppanther92]

I'm actually starting to wonder whether Froome might maybe really be "innocent". Maybe he just tried to push the boundries and take as much Salbutamol as allowed but because of some unknown reasons it backfired and his body didn't process the substance fast enough. I've now already read a few articles claiming the too high portion of Salbutamol in his urine might be due to dehydration which sounds logical to someone like me who isn't exactly knowledgeable in this topic. I just don't get why you would purposely take too much of a substance like Salbutamol when you know you'll get tested the following day. Wouldn't that be unbelievably stupid? This just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, but the limit is set so high that this is not possible. As others pointed out - Froomes sample equals to about 40 puffs, while normal is 2, maximum 3.

 

[ppanther92]

Not sure if posted, so apologies if so. But I found this interesting:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/angel-hernandez-i-no-longer-dope-athletes-but-pretty-much-everyone-else-does/

What about asthma inhalers? So often we see top-level endurance athletes sucking on inhalers, a sight at odds with most people’s childhood memories of asthmatic classmates’ loathing of aerobic exercise. Could it be the humble asthma inhaler holds performance-enhancing qualities?

‘I call it the “transporter”,’ he says. ‘It opens and expands not only your lung capacity but also your pulmonary capability, so it has improved capacity to move the blood cells…

‘In other words, if you were using EPO, or if you were using another substance like EPO, it would help you to boost endurance even more. It is like multiplying the effects by between three and five times.’

He points out some athletes are using the pumps legitimately because they have what he calls ‘induced asthma’ from training, but that others are cheating by conning doctors into giving them medical letters stating that they have the condition, letters that no anti-doping agency on the planet can argue with. ‘It’s like a green light for doping,’ he says.

And this is the crux of it.

Drug taking it would seem is a recipe and a recipe that Sky have got down to a fine art. Any one substance in and of itself means nothing but the combination of drugs used together to drop weight, increase lean muscle, increase oxygen intake and red blood cell count is the holy grail of endurance PEDS.

So like old Dave boy Brailsford says you are looking for small percentages in marginal gains

1% triamcinilone to drop weight
1% testosterone to increase muscle
1% salbutamol to maximize the effects of blood manipulation
1% micro dosing of EPO

We do things the right way and a 4% aggregation of marginal gains is the within the rules or as old wonder boy used to say I have never tested positive.

I think this is a very possible scenario. Kind of body tuning. A little bit of testosterone, you don't exceed the limit, a little bit of EPO, every thing looks normal in the blood pass and so on and so forth.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Everyone laughing at Chris Froome, Sky, Dave Brailsford and all the other hypocrites out there that no doubt deserve this fate seem to be missing the bigger picture in that this is AWFUL for pro cycling! A four time Tour De France champion has just been given back an AAF and people are laughing about it like it's funny or good for cycling when it's not funny at all, although it does feel good to be proven right it's not a laughing matter if you're a fan of pro cycling. I suppose the snipers of the world are having a good time with this but personally, I think this is just another black mark on a sport that has too many black marks to it's credit.

I love pro cycling and feel like I've been punched in the gut even though I'm not at all a Chris Froome or Team Sky fan.

Someday, all these doping scandals are going to catch up to the sport, is this the day?

Maybe at some point people will figure out it's bad for cycling that riders cheat, rather than bad for cycling that the cheaters test positive. I know, I'm a dreamer.

That wasn't my point Red but I get what you're saying. I think you understand what I was saying too in that this isn't a laughing matter. Of course, it's good that dopers get caught. Cycling is better off without the riders that try and get cute with the rules such as Bradley Wiggins and now Chris Froome and the long list of others.

"I haven't broken any rules" is such a load of *** it can't even be quantified. Maybe that's what people find funny? I guess it's so disgusting that it becomes comical? I don't know, all I know is that we the fans of pro cycling have lost yet again. Another multi-time Tour de France champion is embroiled in a doping scandal. The people trying to minimize this will feel the same pain that everyone else feels when their hero gets their just deserts.

Rubbish. Millions of fans will watch the Classics and Grand Tours, etc. Hundreds of thousands will listen to Stages II, Virenque commentary, etc. This is the reality. Profesional cycling and all professional sport will roll on. REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Well honestly that Kittel thing was outrageous and still is. You pump your blood out and put it back in and you argue it's ok ??? really ? UCI at the time lacked guts. It should have if not punished at least massively shamed the culprit saying that "while not legally punishable because unknown at the time this action is viewed as having a clear intent of boosting one's blood efficiency artificially and therefore to reaping benefits akin to those of banned doping. This type of practice will not be tolerated and should not have been tolerated, the UCI regrets not being able to punish the rider for what should have been an offence.". Boom.

You had 6 years to attack kittel for this. You are only getting the knives out now because a guy who was mean to poor froomie seems to like him.

Woah! Sharp tactics there dude....

You instigate comment on a topic by asking for details of something that was posted earlier with little or no commentary; then you attack those fools who respond to you with requested information for bringing up the subject.

Walked right into that trap didn't we. Well played sir, sharp indeed...

Ps. That kid from Timbuktu, he's doing ok for himself. 19 GT stages wins and counting already..

 

[red_flanders]

Not sure if posted, so apologies if so. But I found this interesting:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/angel-hernandez-i-no-longer-dope-athletes-but-pretty-much-everyone-else-does/

What about asthma inhalers? So often we see top-level endurance athletes sucking on inhalers, a sight at odds with most people’s childhood memories of asthmatic classmates’ loathing of aerobic exercise. Could it be the humble asthma inhaler holds performance-enhancing qualities?

‘I call it the “transporter”,’ he says. ‘It opens and expands not only your lung capacity but also your pulmonary capability, so it has improved capacity to move the blood cells…

‘In other words, if you were using EPO, or if you were using another substance like EPO, it would help you to boost endurance even more. It is like multiplying the effects by between three and five times.’

He points out some athletes are using the pumps legitimately because they have what he calls ‘induced asthma’ from training, but that others are cheating by conning doctors into giving them medical letters stating that they have the condition, letters that no anti-doping agency on the planet can argue with. ‘It’s like a green light for doping,’ he says.

Should be a sticky...

 

[70kmph]

Recommended dosage for salbutamol is 2 puffs up to 4 times daily and no more than 8 puffs in 24 hours...

 

[bewildered]

how long does it take to produce a pharmacokinetic study? He's had almost 3 months to produce it and you'd think it would be No.1 priority to nip this in the bud seeing as his entire career and €2m Giro fee could be at stake.

I find it very strange that he only seems to be getting the ball rolling on this and talking about hiring lawyers as soon as the story breaks and last week confirmed he'd ride the Giro. It's almost as if he expected nothing would come of it and it would be kept quiet.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

how long does it take to produce a pharmacokinetic study? He's had almost 3 months to produce it and you'd think it would be No.1 priority to nip this in the bud seeing as his entire career and €2m Giro fee could be at stake.

I find it very strange that he only seems to be getting the ball rolling on this and talking about hiring lawyers as soon as the story breaks and last week confirmed he'd ride the Giro. It's almost as if he expected nothing would come of it and it would be kept quiet.

Almost? Seems clear that's the situation.

 

[Tonton]

Wow! A lot of posts in 24 hrs, just catching up, and some here are so much more experts in dopeology than me, in this respect I can't contribute.

For the Froome fans, remember the old Benotti69 signature: "never felt you got cheated?" . I feel sorry for you, in a nice way. That was me and Virenque...it wasn't fun.

This is barely the confirmation: Dawg is a fraud. Anyone with common sense, not blinded by nationalist love could see it.

Irondan made a great point, to some extend: it's a sad day for Cycling, another black eye. I would disagree from a long-term prospective tho'. It may actually be, long term, a great day for the sport. Dopers get caught. Even the big fishes (unlike in the other sports). After Contador, LA, now Dawg. It feels like you can cheat one Tour, not a bunch. Not forever. It should make others think twice: you can fool some people sometimes et caetera...wishful thinking maybe, but: the deterrent is not so much a stiff penalty as it is the likelihood to get busted.

Tonight, it feels good to be a Tibopino fan. I could be wrong, but I don't think that my horse eats that hay. Yeeha!!!

 

[bewildered]

Re: Re:

how long does it take to produce a pharmacokinetic study? He's had almost 3 months to produce it and you'd think it would be No.1 priority to nip this in the bud seeing as his entire career and €2m Giro fee could be at stake.

I find it very strange that he only seems to be getting the ball rolling on this and talking about hiring lawyers as soon as the story breaks and last week confirmed he'd ride the Giro. It's almost as if he expected nothing would come of it and it would be kept quiet.

Almost? Seems clear that's the situation.

Seems as if he got the all clear and then made his announcement that he'd be riding the Giro. Someone needs to ask him that question.

 

[Netserk]

Wow! A lot of posts in 24 hrs, just catching up, and some here are so much more experts in dopeology than me, in this respect I can't contribute.

For the Froome fans, remember the old Benotti69 signature: "never felt you got cheated?" . I feel sorry for you, in a nice way. That was me and Virenque...it wasn't fun.

This is barely the confirmation: Dawg is a fraud. Anyone with common sense, not blinded by nationalist love could see it.

Irondan made a great point, to some extend: it's a sad day for Cycling, another black eye. I would disagree from a long-term prospective tho'. It may actually be, long term, a great day for the sport. Dopers get caught. Even the big fishes (unlike in the other sports). After Contador, LA, now Dawg. It feels like you can cheat one Tour, not a bunch. Not forever. It should make others think twice: you can fool some people sometimes et caetera...wishful thinking maybe, but: the deterrent is not so much a stiff penalty as it is the likelihood to get busted.

Tonight, it feels good to be a Tibopino fan. I could be wrong, but I don't think that my horse eats that hay. Yeeha!!!

:lol:

I just hope for your sake that you won't have a Virenque moment again. Somethings are better not to find out about, you know the saying about sausages

I also think it's good for the sport longer term. I grant that what constitutes 'good' for the sport is subjective, but if Sky were to pull the plug, I wouldn't be unhappy.

edit: FYI his signature reads: "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78.

 

[Tonton]

I would be devastated...

Good post Netserk. 8/10 .

 

[sittingbison]

Obviously the filthy frogs are trying to tarnish British sport by framing their greatest ever athlete, just had to wait until they could cout de tate Sir Bryan and replace him with their puppet. It was only a marginal indiscretion though, not really worth worrying about. Tranquilo.

They did the same thing with Lance and the chamois cream in '99 on his comeback. Mountain out of a molehill, Lance had a saddle sore. They have history.

I'm sure Sir Dave and Michelle will show them up with perfectly sensible level headed explanations

 

[Barney]

Can someone tell me on which planet people are shamed for using an asthma puffer? #asthma #breathstrong

 

[Random Direction]

Ork. Froome is that alien. I'm sorry that some still believe in miracles.

 

[MartinGT]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/dec/14/chris-froome-team-sky-drug-test?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Everyone laughing at Chris Froome, Sky, Dave Brailsford and all the other hypocrites out there that no doubt deserve this fate seem to be missing the bigger picture in that this is AWFUL for pro cycling! A four time Tour De France champion has just been given back an AAF and people are laughing about it like it's funny or good for cycling when it's not funny at all, although it does feel good to be proven right it's not a laughing matter if you're a fan of pro cycling. I suppose the snipers of the world are having a good time with this but personally, I think this is just another black mark on a sport that has too many black marks to it's credit.

I love pro cycling and feel like I've been punched in the gut even though I'm not at all a Chris Froome or Team Sky fan.

Someday, all these doping scandals are going to catch up to the sport, is this the day?

Maybe at some point people will figure out it's bad for cycling that riders cheat, rather than bad for cycling that the cheaters test positive. I know, I'm a dreamer.

That wasn't my point Red but I get what you're saying. I think you understand what I was saying too in that this isn't a laughing matter. Of course, it's good that dopers get caught. Cycling is better off without the riders that try and get cute with the rules such as Bradley Wiggins and now Chris Froome and the long list of others.

"I haven't broken any rules" is such a load of *** it can't even be quantified. Maybe that's what people find funny? I guess it's so disgusting that it becomes comical? I don't know, all I know is that we the fans of pro cycling have lost yet again. Another multi-time Tour de France champion is embroiled in a doping scandal. The people trying to minimize this will feel the same pain that everyone else feels when their hero gets their just deserts.

Rubbish. Millions of fans will watch the Classics and Grand Tours, etc. Hundreds of thousands will listen to Stages II, Virenque commentary, etc. This is the reality. Profesional cycling and all professional sport will roll on. REALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.

This!

If cycling was going to be bought down by doping scandals it would have happened a long time ago. I'd say it's reputation is beyond salvage, not in my lifetime anyway. But the show goes on, same tomorrow as it did yesterday...

But wait, we gotta have a victim here to vent our outrage. We can't use the clean athletes in cycling, because we don't really believe there are any.

So let's mourn for cycling itself :sad:

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/dec/14/chris-froome-team-sky-drug-test?CMP=share_btn_tw

nice line from phillipa..."the vuelta giveth and the vuelta taketh"

 

[rhubroma]

Brent Copland's interview in today's la Gazzetta dello Sport exemplifies why Sky fails every credibility test. "Why hasn't team Sky suspended Froome?" he asks."Honestly it doesn't surprise me. I want to start by saying, however, that my words aren't an attack against Sky,or even Froome. I'm just reflecting aloud in the interest of cycling." The reason is this: "The news was communicated on 20 September and the majority of teams have an internal ethical conduct code that provides for a rider's suspension, until the affair has been resolved. This means us too (Bahrain-Merida), obviously. And if this would have happened to any of our riders, from Nibali to Feng, we would have suspended him. This sort of thing can happen to any team. And Sky has always proclaimed to have zero tolerance." Now another question: "The other day the UCI made known the list of World Tour teams and, from the tenor of the communication, one understood that Sky was not called in to clarify its position following Froome's situation before the licencing board. Why not? Usually, for administrative, financial and naturally ethical concerns, this is always the case. Yet this time, no. How come?"

It is also rich how Nibali responded to a question about the perception of Sky in the peleton in a separate interview.

GdS: "But is it true that in the gruppo there is a diffused sentiment of dislike/envy towards the British team?"

VN: "No. It's their behavior that can be a bit annoying. A bit...haughty. We are strong, the others are nobody. Can this be said? One perceives this, but then maybe if I outright say so oh the drama and headlines."

 

[rhubroma]

KaFoome! or maybe just a firecracker (with all the lawyers and medics hired to obfuscate reality). Either way Skyfraud is exposed.

Then the real deal with salbutamol: if you take it orally or intravenously while taking EPO or its latest (undetectable) derivatives, then the O2 vector, performance enhancing effects are multiplied. Case closed. Plus in large doses salbutamol has fat burning, muscle toning effects. Case closed again. I have always said Froome is a freak product of the Sky laboratory.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Well honestly that Kittel thing was outrageous and still is. You pump your blood out and put it back in and you argue it's ok ??? really ? UCI at the time lacked guts. It should have if not punished at least massively shamed the culprit saying that "while not legally punishable because unknown at the time this action is viewed as having a clear intent of boosting one's blood efficiency artificially and therefore to reaping benefits akin to those of banned doping. This type of practice will not be tolerated and should not have been tolerated, the UCI regrets not being able to punish the rider for what should have been an offence.". Boom.

You had 6 years to attack kittel for this. You are only getting the knives out now because a guy who was mean to poor froomie seems to like him.

Dude I don't give a rat's ass about Kittel, I am not "attacking him", what matters here is the Froome case. It doesn't change the fact that shaming riders and teams that abuse a system by exploiting grey areas should be seen as a legitimate action from organisers and federations, It would be a helpful tool to try and keep them in line as we all know that researd in gaming the system is always one step ahead of the rules to enforce fair and clean playing field.

 

[veji11]

And this is the crux of it.

Drug taking it would seem is a recipe and a recipe that Sky have got down to a fine art. Any one substance in and of itself means nothing but the combination of drugs used together to drop weight, increase lean muscle, increase oxygen intake and red blood cell count is the holy grail of endurance PEDS.

So like old Dave boy Brailsford says you are looking for small percentages in marginal gains

1% triamcinilone to drop weight
1% testosterone to increase muscle
1% salbutamol to maximize the effects of blood manipulation
1% micro dosing of EPO

We do things the right way and a 4% aggregation of marginal gains is the within the rules or as old wonder boy used to say I have never tested positive.

Might be something like this either with micro-dosing forbidden stuff, or, which to me is just as likely if not more, using all possible non-illegal levers up to the max or close to to try and gain an advantage, ie the Sharapova shaker. And just here and there a mistake was made. Which one they might not really know themselves.

What matters is that this type of "cocktail of legal stuff" is a doping behaviou if not doping per se.