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Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Mar 13, 2009
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Zam_Olyas said:
If we cannot talk about progression because of doping that means we cant talk about previous results of most riders.
i think you can talk about progression. but this needs to be the <unsaid meta narrative>

cant just throw some riders out. tho i will give the donkey exception to levi, cos he was so godawful boring. so, the donkey of boring minnesota.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Zam_Olyas said:
If we cannot talk about progression because of doping that means we cant talk about previous results of most riders.

You can talk about them but it's flawed data, so you can't draw proper conclusions from it. It's a house built on sand: all results could be tainted, you can't be confident that anyone was riding clean. There is no clean control, no rider to use as a yardstick. Judging riders by their performances against other riders, given that all or none may be doping, on different programmes at different times throughout the season, and taking different drugs, means the exercise, while entertaining, is nigh on useless.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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wansteadimp said:
But how do you know that the likes of Contador, Evans etc weren't on it from such an early age that they have no untainted history, compared to Froome coming from an unsophisticated (in doping terms) background where his leap in improvement stands out.

If they've been doped from the start we have no idea what their actual talent level is.

Sure thing bro. They were on the juice at 16. That's heading into the really cynical part of the Clinic. You go there they give you a special uniform to wear.

We've all got the cyclists we believe had it always. For me, nobody on Sky except Lokqvist and Boassan Hagan have anything resembling incredible natural talent. We already know how one of those stories went under that roof. In the dead end year of 2010, Lokqvist thumped Wiggins in every GT, not that he himself did any good.

But if it makes everyone sleep easier, keep telling yourself Froome is good. It's like the single mentions I've read of his superior VO2max. More myths from fanboys. Wanna know the real tell? It's how he rides. He looks atrocious. Praying Mantis on a bike. No natural pre epo GT rider rode a bike like that. But they sure as hell rode em like Contador and Schleck do. Think about why that is? Cycling is an art as much as it is an endurance event. Both go together at the pointy end of the spectrum.

But like I said, if people can sleep easier or get their jollies from watching a guy ride a bike in as ugly a fashion as Froome, knock yourself out.:D
 
Aug 12, 2009
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blackcat said:
galic, contador was always doped. s how does that fit your theory?

What age? What is your qualifier?

Let me guess, Valverde's El Imbatido nickname was earned on dope too as a teenager. Man that is hitting a new boundary even for the Clinic. Anyone ever heard of the Spanish doping guys under 18? Seriously? Because I'd love to hear it. That'd make the Clinic spin for weeks. I've never heard this before. Young guys doping, yes, but not under 18s doing hard PED's!

This one your dead set wrong. Your boy is the ugliest rider I and half the Clinic have ever seen on a bike. Absolutely no talent clean. He gives hope to all donkeys who want a nice pay cheque for winning on drugs what they never could if everyone was clean. Odds of him getting popped given what's happening? Nigh on higher than usual. I look forward to the full retardation in July.

At the end of the day THIS does matter. Perception. We all have our own cognitive balances. Who would win if it were clean. The bulk consensus has always been AC would be high up there. Same with Evans, same with Valverde. The qualifier is Lemond. Where would he be right now in his prime in this field? I say 20 minutes down on last years Tour. The answer is a hell of a lot higher than Froome was before the 2011 Vuelta. That answers it completely. Next to no GC talent clean.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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blackcat said:
i can lend you my uniform galic. then you can give it to auscyclefan94 ;)

I don't live in Melbourne. Wrong state.

I get your Wiggins point, I just don't get why you've decided Froome isn't the same boat. For me they are identical. Couldn't climb a lick at any time.

When Sky can grab some older guy who coached him when he was a nobody and tell us he always had it, it'd add some weight. But I haven't heard any yet. I can make a case for Richie Porte...but Froome. What results warrant some leeway in terms of talent vs doping? They just aren't there at all pre 2011 Vuelta IMO.

If this were John Lee Augustyn, we'd be having a different discussion. But that is a different year on Barloworld.

Then again I just remembered. Are any of these guys I've mentioned AICAR beasts like Wiggins and Froome? Nope. That is a whole other element I think qualifies everything. Needing epo and transfusions is one thing, but having to drop excess muscle mass and body fat simply to get up a hill; yeah that is a big tell you never had it clean.
 
Galic Ho said:
Sure thing bro. They were on the juice at 16. That's heading into the really cynical part of the Clinic. You go there they give you a special uniform to wear.

We've all got the cyclists we believe had it always. For me, nobody on Sky except Lokqvist and Boassan Hagan have anything resembling incredible natural talent. We already know how one of those stories went under that roof. In the dead end year of 2010, Lokqvist thumped Wiggins in every GT, not that he himself did any good.

But if it makes everyone sleep easier, keep telling yourself Froome is good. It's like the single mentions I've read of his superior VO2max. More myths from fanboys. Wanna know the real tell? It's how he rides. He looks atrocious. Praying Mantis on a bike. No natural pre epo GT rider rode a bike like that. But they sure as hell rode em like Contador and Schleck do. Think about why that is? Cycling is an art as much as it is an endurance event. Both go together at the pointy end of the spectrum.

But like I said, if people can sleep easier or get their jollies from watching a guy ride a bike in as ugly a fashion as Froome, knock yourself out.:D

Nope I'm pretty certain Froome is doped, far from a fan boy. So whats the excuse for everyone else keeping up with him/beating him? They're clean?

The point is why the hate for Froome who is only suspected of cheating and not for Contador who is convicted of it?

It seems to me it basically boils down to Contador was winning in Europe when he was young and Froome wasn't here.
 
JimmyFingers said:
You can talk about them but it's flawed data, so you can't draw proper conclusions from it. It's a house built on sand: all results could be tainted, you can't be confident that anyone was riding clean. There is no clean control, no rider to use as a yardstick. Judging riders by their performances against other riders, given that all or none may be doping, on different programmes at different times throughout the season, and taking different drugs, means the exercise, while entertaining, is nigh on useless.
If it's a flawed data what's the point in using it.
 

martinvickers

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Zam_Olyas said:
If we cannot talk about progression because of doping that means we cant talk about previous results of most riders.

Well, maybe that tells you the idea you hold - that 'progression' is a predictable and useful determiner of doping isn't all that robust...

Pantani won the Girobio at 22 and was a star for years - and he was doped to the merry gills almost the entire time - a "walking medical experiment".

All this 'thoroughbred' v 'donkey' bollox. It's simple. You dope, you're a cheat, no more, no less. There is no morally better grade of cheater, except, just possibly, a genuinely repentant one - one of which we can never be sure we've ever seen.

The rest are cheating scum. Every. Last. One. Anything else is just puerile fanboi-ism.
 

martinvickers

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Miburo said:
I hope he is otherwise it'll be a boring tour ;)

I hope every doper is caught on day one, Berti, Froome, whoever, kicked out, and never seen again.

But then again, I care more about the sport than my own entertainment. Naivite.
 
Netserk said:
Only two. Pologne and Pais Vasco.
Was Poland wt? Thought it was a bit smaller back then.
martinvickers said:
I hope every doper is caught on day one, Berti, Froome, whoever, kicked out, and never seen again.

But then again, I care more about the sport than my own entertainment. Naivite.

And I wish the everyone would make peace and the oceans would stop rising and the world would begin to heal.

In the real world things are a bit more complicated.;)
 
martinvickers said:
Well, maybe that tells you the idea you hold - that 'progression' is a predictable and useful determiner of doping isn't all that robust...

Pantani won the Girobio at 22 and was a star for years - and he was doped to the merry gills almost the entire time - a "walking medical experiment".

All this 'thoroughbred' v 'donkey' bollox. It's simple. You dope, you're a cheat, no more, no less. There is no morally better grade of cheater, except, just possibly, a genuinely repentant one - one of which we can never be sure we've ever seen.

The rest are cheating scum. Every. Last. One. Anything else is just puerile fanboi-ism.

Steady career progression vs magical overnight progression are 2 entirely different career paths. The fact that 1 of them is useless for determining whether someone dopes does not mean the other one is. People who are good from youth may very well be doping. That does not mean someone who turns into superman in mid- late 20s isnt more suspicious.
 
martinvickers said:
Well, maybe that tells you the idea you hold - that 'progression' is a predictable and useful determiner of doping isn't all that robust...

Pantani won the Girobio at 22 and was a star for years - and he was doped to the merry gills almost the entire time - a "walking medical experiment".

All this 'thoroughbred' v 'donkey' bollox. It's simple. You dope, you're a cheat, no more, no less. There is no morally better grade of cheater, except, just possibly, a genuinely repentant one - one of which we can never be sure we've ever seen.

The rest are cheating scum. Every. Last. One. Anything else is just puerile fanboi-ism.

I don't know that i hold any idea, how do you know what i idea i may have or may not have ?
 

martinvickers

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Galic Ho said:
Sure thing bro. They were on the juice at 16. That's heading into the really cynical part of the Clinic. You go there they give you a special uniform to wear.

You need to wise up to reality, then.

This year alone, a female Russian swimmer has been busted for a cocktail of drugs.

At 14.

Plenty of juice available at those ages for those want to drink it.
Smells to me like someone wants to pretend their favourite's sh!t smells sweeter...which is kinda ironic in a Froome thread.


We've all got the cyclists we believe had it always. For me, nobody on Sky except Lokqvist and Boassan Hagan have anything resembling incredible natural talent. We already know how one of those stories went under that roof. In the dead end year of 2010, Lokqvist thumped Wiggins in every GT, not that he himself did any good.

Oh, come on Galic, surely you believe in the Colombians? hell, they don't even speak English...

But if it makes everyone sleep easier, keep telling yourself Froome is good. It's like the single mentions I've read of his superior VO2max. More myths from fanboys.

What is his VO2 max. you appear to know the info, so I'm interested in finding out....

Wanna know the real tell?

Yes, Please...

It's how he rides. He looks atrocious. Praying Mantis on a bike. No natural pre epo GT rider rode a bike like that. But they sure as hell rode em like Contador and Schleck do.

Indeed, some of the rode on the same Drugs as Berti, too.

Think about why that is? Cycling is an art as much as it is an endurance event. Both go together at the pointy end of the spectrum.

Tell me about Picasso's palmares again....

But like I said, if people can sleep easier or get their jollies from watching a guy ride a bike in as ugly a fashion as Froome, knock yourself out.:D

Thanks, Galic. Been needing a good laugh. Cycling as performance art...great stuff....
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Zam_Olyas said:
If it's a flawed data what's the point in using it.

Agreed. I don't.

What a rider won or when is largely an irrelevance when it comes to determining guilt of doping, or even suspicion of. Plenty of athletes have shone at an early age, beating all before them, then faded with their youth. Equally so plenty of them have started slowly, then bloomed late on. I don't believe there's any rhyme or reason to it, and certainly not something to draw solid conclusions from. They were good at 18 does not automatically mean they'll be good at 30, and visa versa.
 
JimmyFingers said:
Agreed. I don't.

What a rider won or when is largely an irrelevance when it comes to determining guilt of doping, or even suspicion of. Plenty of athletes have shone at an early age, beating all before them, then faded with their youth. Equally so plenty of them have started slowly, then bloomed late on. I don't believe there's any rhyme or reason to it, and certainly not something to draw solid conclusions from. They were good at 18 does not automatically mean they'll be good at 30, and visa versa.

Wow. This is a convenient argument!

Basically you’re saying that any athlete can perform how they like and its clean because improvement can come at anytime.

Nice logic :rolleyes:
 

martinvickers

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The Hitch said:
Was Poland wt? Thought it was a bit smaller back then.


And I wish the everyone would make peace and the oceans would stop rising and the world would begin to heal.

In the real world things are a bit more complicated.;)

The world never gets so complicated that I stop believing in right and wrong. I may not get justice. That's no excuse for stopping caring about it.
 

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