Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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airstream said:
In general if people, who say 'we don't have the evidence' about whether Contador used doping during the 2007 Tour or not, have little choice but saying the same about today's Froome. But coming it down to the talent and wishing Contador to win, because he is a doper-in-law while Froome is a doper newbie, are exceptionally pathetic things. If Froome gets popped, I'll be one of the first forum guy to say that it's fair. However such huge double standarts in attitude to the riders is foolishness.
Stunningly lucid.

A tip of the hat to you too, Sir/madam.
 
The Hitch said:
No not vice versa. You have proven that someone who is good young can become worse as their career progresses.

You have NOT proven that the reverse is true. The fact that losing form midcareer is natural does not mean that gaining it midcareer is natural.

Not all rules work in reverse e.g.. if someone does alpe d huez in 35.minutes that means they are doping. But if they do it in 45 minutes that doesn't mean they are clean.
ç
Not everybody develop his talent at the same way, but is true, you has to have some talent, you have to do some good perfomances or good test (no even exceptional) or something at the begining (firsts years rider, as amateur or as profesional) to be credible later.
Froome did.
 
JimmyFingers said:
... What I don't believe is that you can chart an athlete's career progression and arrive at a constant that can be held up as a 'clean' progression, and that deviation from it is indicative of nefarious practice.
Haha. Whatever you do, don't examine Lemond's amateur results because that's exactly what you'll discover.

JimmyFingers said:
.Undoubtedly spikes in performance are massively suspicious and rightly worthy of investigation, but it not conclusive in isolation.
In isolation of.... What? Looking for a positive. Revisit the phrase "never tested positive" and the glorious career of Marion Jones. Really? You need to wait for the Statute of Limitations to expire?

JimmyFingers said:
And as far as form goes, it can easily come and go, and so reasons why too.
So, doping's hero to zero doesn't exist? You are working really hard to pretend.

JimmyFingers said:
On paper one rider should be superior to another, but no matter how strong the legs are if the head isn't with them then it won't count for much
Ohh dear.... You weren't following cycling pre-EPO were you?
 
big doopie said:
stunningly lucid.

A tip of the hat to you too, sir/madam.
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Jul 29, 2012
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Zam_Olyas said:
JV should publish the test results.long shot i know.
Why wouldn't he? What's the point in not showing them?

Or is he trying to blackmail Froome and Sky? ;)
 
Aug 12, 2009
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martinvickers said:
You need to wise up to reality, then.

This year alone, a female Russian swimmer has been busted for a cocktail of drugs.

At 14.
Russian. Swimmer. WTF do you think Ian Thorpe was eating for breakfast at that age? The American head coach practically screamed he was downing HGH. Then they MADE Phelps. There have been a ton of young female swimmers. Lot's doped. No big shock there. Plenty of 15 year old World Champions. Get with the program. Thorpe was a World Champion at 15 and is a few days younger than me. It's not NORMAL, but it's still a different universe of doping. Swimming ain't cycling. Name us one cyclist who is a teen who would stand a chance against Contador in a GT or someone like Sagan or Cancellara in a classic? Apples and oranges. Two totally different parallels and I haven't even touched on the national bias.

Like BC said about Sevilla doping at 16. Qualify it. He is German. Product of the East German system. No shock there because that is what they did. Cyclists for the most part, get introduced to drugs later in the game. When they make it. There is absolutely never been talk in this forum of any nation doping male cyclists at 16 years of age, least of all Spain. BC is extending an exception to the rule and covering certain riders with the faults of ONE person. There has never been talk about them. BC is also the only person on the forum who has ever said Ullrich couldn't climb before EPO, based on some things he'd heard. When 2 people cover it, it's got traction. You following?

Oh, come on Galic, surely you believe in the Colombians? hell, they don't even speak English...
I believe Uran needs to learn how to race on wide roads during the Olympics. I'm not Ryo. They're not ALL world beaters. But they sure act well above the norm as of late. Only Quintana really impresses me. Maybe in a clean world he'd be a Luis Herrera...maybe.

What is his VO2 max. you appear to know the info, so I'm interested in finding out....
Ring Sky and get them to send him to Ashenden and release that Blood profile while they are at it. I'm not the one to rabbit on about VO2max and not drop a number. It was quite clear I was asking for them...do try and keep up.

Tell me about Picasso's palmares again....
Picasso? Who cares other than you. Van Gogh spanks his lily behind every day of the week.

Thanks, Galic. Been needing a good laugh. Cycling as performance art...great stuff....
It wasn't as funny as your comment before about 'caring' about cycling. You Irish removed McQuack yet? That's what I thought...you don't care at all. Actions speak louder than words.

Oh and if your claim was that cycling is learning from swimming you're right. You really aren't smart at all. Who was involved with team Thorpe? You favourite team's Tim Kerrison, who has shown that yes, swimming 'tricks' really do rub off onto cyclists! Great play champ! Great play! Now get back to drafting that letter asking for McQuack's head on a platter for us will you?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
Haha. Whatever you do, don't examine Lemond's amateur results because that's exactly what you'll discover.



In isolation of.... What? Looking for a positive. Revisit the phrase "never tested positive" and the glorious career of Marion Jones. Really? You need to wait for the Statute of Limitations to expire?


So, doping's hero to zero doesn't exist? You are working really hard to pretend.



Ohh dear.... You weren't following cycling pre-EPO were you?
I think you missed the point
 
Apr 20, 2012
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So, to sum up, the new Sky 'defence' is you cant compare Froome's progression with others because all the others are dopers ergo their data is corrupted?

So, we see a zero like Santa grow to be a hero overnight, gets popped, guiltied by performance, but not the wonder from Kenya.

Okay.

Still waiting for those Aigle numbers though.
galic ho said:
I believe Uran needs to learn how to race on wide roads during the Olympics. I'm not Ryo. They're not ALL world beaters. But they sure act well above the norm as of late. Only Quintana really impresses me. Maybe in a clean world he'd be a Luis Herrera...maybe.
Quintana would whip el gardinero left right and center, that says enough.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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It's not a Sky 'defence', why does everything get so twisted around in here, I don't like being misrepresented. People constantly put words and motives in my mouth to suit their agenda.
 
Jul 29, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
So, to sum up, the new Sky 'defence' is you cant compare Froome's progression with others because all the others are dopers ergo their data is corrupted?

So, we see a zero like Santa grow to be a hero overnight, gets popped, guiltied by performance, but not the wonder from Kenya.

Okay.
Good point, if the peloton thought santa was dirty then what about Froome? What did they think during the vuelta of 2011?

You gotta give Froome some credit, performinig so well in the same GT as Cobo is a good way to not getting any attention.

I wouldn't surprised if all eyes were focused on geox.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
It's not a Sky 'defence', why does everything get so twisted around in here, I don't like being misrepresented. People constantly put words and motives in my mouth to suit their agenda.
I just recognized a pattern Jimmy, dont shoot the messenger.

And yes, even doped riders have natural [not natural of course given the fact they are doped] progression.
When riders have a sudden ludicrous progression my alarmbells go of. Lets say Piepoli 2008, a rider who I have followed from the start of his carreer. Like Santambroggio he started at the team of Orlando Maini. Both guilty by performance.

Good thing Froome didnt have to start out with a directeur sportif with a dirty past, like working with Ferrari and Conconi as a rider in the back of the eighties ;)
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=7313
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=7557
Great names. The institute of Ferrara approves.

Barloworld 2008:
Claudio Corti
Valerio Tebaldi
Alberto Volpi
Flavio Miozzo

All linked with the Institute of Clean Cycling at Ferrara. I bet they can spot raw talent for what it is.
 
May 28, 2012
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FGL, of course Barloworld knew they had an exceptional talent in the shape of Froome. An experienced DS/rider like Corti(combined with inside info about young riders) can spot such class from miles away, while someone who's practically a cycling enthusiast(like most of us here) can't. Whether it's just ignorance or lack of access to information, you can't judge talent as an outsider.

Has Froome doped/learned the tricks at Barlo? Well, the latter is impossible to rule out, but I've been told numerous times by the Froome opposition he was pretty average at Barloworld. Which means it's not very likely he doped much there.

So, what's the reason to keep pointing at Corti's dirtiniess, as Froome didn't really impress anyone udring '08-'09? You could ask Corti why he saw a talent in Froome, but you won't be satisfied there.

He'll tell you Froome had class, when he didn't crash. Of course he knew about the test results. Why would he hire a rider that crashes all the time, that still can't even compete in a full-sized peloton, and on top of that doesn't even have promising test results? Mr. Corti would've been the joke of the peloton, even before he joined Coldeportes.

However, as long as we don't get those exact numbers, it's just guessing. Did Claudio see a raw talent, or was it clear to him Froome was a super responder, who just needed a horrible disease to activate that superpower?
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
I just recognized a pattern Jimmy, dont shoot the messenger.

And yes, even doped riders have natural [not natural of course given the fact they are doped] progression.
When riders have a sudden ludicrous progression my alarmbells go of. Lets say Piepoli 2008, a rider who I have followed from the start of his carreer. Like Santambroggio he started at the team of Orlando Maini. Both guilty by performance.

Good thing Froome didnt have to start out with a directeur sportif with a dirty past, like working with Ferrari and Conconi as a rider in the back of the eighties ;)
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=7313
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=7557
Great names. The institute of Ferrara approves.

Barloworld 2008:
Claudio Corti
Valerio Tebaldi
Alberto Volpi
Flavio Miozzo

All linked with the Institute of Clean Cycling at Ferrara. I bet they can spot raw talent for what it is.
No, stop addressing me like I'm defending Froome blindly. I've already said spikes in performance are suspicious, I've never said don't question him.

What I was saying was different, it was about how rider x and rider y get a different treatment even though both are considered dopers, because one is considered to have greater 'natural talent' or a better riding style, and GH came out and illustrated my point perfectly by going on about how anyone that rides that ugly could have the talent to win a GT clean. Somehow being stylish, being good from an early age, having panache means your doping is somehow mitigated, that is what I was calling out, not the fact you are suspicious of Froome.

Last time I looked doping has nothing to do with how you look on a bike. If it did I must be on all kinds of drugs.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Ah, so Froome was the one clean rider on Barloworld. Glad to have that cleared.
my posts on froome are pretty transparent.

dont be a goose and twist and deny what i have said dude.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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JimmyFingers said:
It's not a Sky 'defence', why does everything get so twisted around in here, I don't like being misrepresented. People constantly put words and motives in my mouth to suit their agenda.
Here I thought you had a keyboard. Do point me in the direction of the audio logs will you :D It'd be nice to have a voice to go with your posts.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
BC is also the only person on the forum who has ever said Ullrich couldn't climb before EPO, based on some things he'd heard.
it was Race Radio you fool. RR is the only person who they have referenced in places like NYTimes and WSJournal. and twitter replies from armstrong.

anecdote goes Udo Bolts has said, that before they got him on epo he was off the back on climbs at Telekom training camps in about 94.

and in a thread on who would win the Tour if no one was on anything, RR never mentions Ullrich. He does mention LANDIS tho.
 

airstream

BANNED
Mar 29, 2011
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Galic Ho, I think you one season theory won't find confirmation. It continues for 2 seasons and limits are invisible so far. If Froomester comes back to mediocrity as you express it was an even more impressive phantom than his rising.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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blackcat said:
it was Race Radio you fool. RR is the only person who they have referenced in places like NYTimes and WSJournal. and twitter replies from armstrong.

anecdote goes Udo Bolts has said, that before they got him on epo he was off the back on climbs at Telekom training camps in about 94.

and in a thread on who would win the Tour if no one was on anything, RR never mentions Ullrich. He does mention LANDIS tho.
No it wasn't, it was you. Why? Because the written tone was your vernacular, nor RR's. Your posting style is very unique.

It was just some off key remark you've made two or three times. Nothing serious dude. You mentioned his old DS...Udo Bolts. You may have been paraphrasing RR, but I have never seen RR ever talk about that. It's not even important, I only mentioned it to illustrate a point; which was if one person mentions something, unless like you demonstrated it was RR, it's just opinion.

Don't you find this odd? I mean you were saying last year that you thought Cadel only did minor stuff to get where he was. The minimal required. Has that changed? Do you think that type of PED usage is 'fair' next to Froome? Or how about Santambrogio? It certainly would explain Cadel not being happy with his old climbing buddy. Just some food for thought.

And if I knew RR has said something, I most definitely would have said RR and not you.;)
 
Aug 12, 2009
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airstream said:
Galic Ho, I think you one season theory won't find confirmation. It continues for 2 seasons and limits are invisible so far. If Froomester comes back to mediocrity as you express it was an even more impressive phantom than his rising.
I agree. Time will tell, with both Froome and Wiggins. I for one hope Andy Schleck comes back and smokes both of them. If I have to watch someone win the Tour, I want them to look good doing it.:D
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
No it wasn't, it was you. Why? Because the written tone was your vernacular, nor RR's. Your posting style is very unique.

It was just some off key remark you've made two or three times. Nothing serious dude. You mentioned his old DS...Udo Bolts. You may have been paraphrasing RR, but I have never seen RR ever talk about that. It's not even important, I only mentioned it to illustrate a point; which was if one person mentions something, unless like you demonstrated it was RR, it's just opinion.

Don't you find this odd? I mean you were saying last year that you thought Cadel only did minor stuff to get where he was. The minimal required. Has that changed? Do you think that type of PED usage is 'fair' next to Froome? Or how about Santambrogio? It certainly would explain Cadel not being happy with his old climbing buddy. Just some food for thought.

And if I knew RR has said something, I most definitely would have said RR and not you.;)
ask Race Radio. I got the info off him you goose.95% of what i post in second hand info. chinese whispers if you will. for that, i will plead guilty. but i dont make sh!t up.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
I agree. Time will tell, with both Froome and Wiggins. I for one hope Andy Schleck comes back and smokes both of them. If I have to watch someone win the Tour, I want them to look good doing it.:D
well, the unfo on Schleck the jnr from his time at VC Roubaix under cyrille guimard was he was a bigtime charger. And Frank had zero results as a jnr and espoir, and when he was at De Nardi in Italy. There was an australian brother from tasmania who rode on that team. someone should ask him about Schleck circa 2000. Frank was ordinary. until under Riis tutelage. and only got the gig cos Jan went from Team Coast to new iteration of Bianchi when Riis had left open a spot for him and johnny schleck the old man, got in touch with Barney to get a spot for Frank.

was sean sullivan, not sure if he was the one who rode for Toyota Pro Cycling the domestic team in the US or that was his bro. Kim Kirchen was also on that team De Nardi
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=10009
 

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