Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Nathan12]

Agreed. It has to be something different.

Maybe he's on different things now than he started on in August 2011? How would a no-name rider get hold of a new wonder drug- doesn't make sense. My guess is that blood doping explains the Vuelta 2011- covered for by the Bilharzia. After that, who knows...

 

[SundayRider]

Agreed. It has to be something different.

Aicar possibly?

 

[Nathan12]

Aicar possibly?

Again, I think AICAR/GW1516 etc may explain some things- but not Vuelta 2011. If you're fighting to save your contract, you don't experiment with new wonder drugs- you reach for the blood doping. If you look at pictures from the Vuelta 2011 he's not nearly as skinny as he has become.

 

[froooome]

If not, he really has a tremendous natural talent that somehow never manifested itself until 2011.

Or maybe he, as an uncivilized African, didn't know that to perform well at early ages, you have to begin to use PEDs at very early ages like the DDR/Spain/Colombian-lab products Ullrich/BloodBagBerto/Quintana

Anyway, it was a nice show today, wish it continues in this week and even in July

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Agreed. It has to be something different.

I've been thinking that for a while, too. It just doesn't look like straight-up oxygen vector doping. There's also the weight loss that's accompanied by a rise in FTP. I'd love to see how GME (Gross Motor Efficiency) has changed. I'm guessing that something is out there that gives a nice boost to the metabolic pathways that has the appearance of a shift in efficiency.

John Swanson

 

[doolols]

Or maybe he, as an uncivilized African ...

Whaaaat? Ridiculous. And agree with the earlier comments about "***". There's a lot of nasty comments on here.

 

[red_flanders]

I'd love to know.

I can't help but think he must be using better stuff than the other dopers, or more of it. If not, he really has a tremendous natural talent that somehow never manifested itself until 2011.

I don't think it's as simple as the binary equation "More/better Dope or Natural Talent". There are other potential (and IMO more likely) factors that we know about already, which could apply in the case of Froome:

1) Uneven response to drugs. It is widely known that people respond differently to drugs. On some it has a huge effect, on others not as much. This is the case with everyday over-the-counter and prescription drugs as much as it is with PED's.

2) Different baselines. An athlete using blood manipulation who is naturally at a lower level gets more overall benefit than one who starts at a very high level. This could be exacerbated by the blood passport, which tends to cap levels. If I start at 38%, I get tremendous benefit by upping to 50%. If I start at 44%, much less so.

3) Protection by the organization. We know this has happened in the past. I think it's not a stretch to imagine that the UCI protected Sky in the lead up to the 2012 TdF and Olympics. Certainly an easy case to make that they were incentivized to protect Sky, though there is no evidence for this that I know of. It could follow that protection still exists, giving some dopers more leeway than others. We saw this with Armstrong, and it was tied to revenue models. The same financial situation existed/exists with Sky.

In my view these are all possible explanations for certain riders can see greater leaps in form than others. The fact that Froome was an average rider before his transformation would fit in well with 1 and 2.

 

[doolols]

I've been thinking that for a while, too. It just doesn't look like straight-up oxygen vector doping. There's also the weight loss that's accompanied by a rise in FTP. I'd love to see how GME (Gross Motor Efficiency) has changed. I'm guessing that something is out there that gives a nice boost to the metabolic pathways that has the appearance of a shift in efficiency.

John Swanson

Yes to this (and RR's posts). Let's leave the nonsense rhetoric out of this. Cookson won't cover anything up, otherwise he's out, and he doesn't have the old-skool contacts of Pat (which did even him no good in the end).

So there's nothing being flagged up on the tests they have at the moment. It has to be something new, something not explicitly banned, but which will be when it's discovered.

 

[rainman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXcCOip7Dk

Attacking twice.
Bringing back Kelderman and dropping Nibali with that tempo.
Bringing back JvdB2.
Bringing back Talansky.
Bringing back Kelderman.
Bringing back Talansky.

Followed by this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nRXcCOip7Dk#t=700

Laughed so hard at that. AC has definitely read the book or heard about it.
CF: looks back, Jesus, he's still there, flicks elbow.
AC: your having a giraffe mate if you think I'm going to work with you after that. Stays on wheel no matter what, has a go for stage.
CF wont need Wiggo around in the Tour for nightmares, he's made plenty for himself.

 

[froooome]

But fortunately at least Saxo has found the secret Sky method and we can enjoy this year fairly even battles on the mountains

 

[IzzyStradlin]

30:09 represents a massive jump. About 7% better then his other performances. It is Pantani level climbing. If clean it means he is the greatest climber in the history of the sport. The question of why he does not have another performance like that in the 2011-2013 period is as puzzling as how he was suddenly able to perform in the 2011 Vuelta.

What does a rider do to achieve two such massive increases in performance in his career?

Maybe the 30:09 is BS? Mindgames?

Doesn't make sense why he would claim this...increase suspicion even more. But as we are seeing, he is not the most tactful rider in the bunch.

 

[JimPanzen]

1) Uneven response to drugs. It is widely known that people respond differently to drugs. On some it has a huge effect, on others not as much. This is the case with everyday over-the-counter and prescription drugs as much as it is with PED's.

I think this is the most important factor in Froome's case. Seeing where he came from (which basically is getting smoked in every race until Vuelta '11), I think he's an outstanding responder to PED or one specific method particularly.

 

[red_flanders]

I think this is the most important factor in Froome's case. Seeing where he came from (which basically is getting smoked in every race until Vuelta '11), I think he's an outstanding responder to PED or one specific method particularly.

Could be. To be clear I don't mean to discount the possibility that there are new substances. I think it's clear that AICAR or some other such effective fat-burning method is in use by many, not just Sky. I think whatever was happening the delta between anything Sky may have been doing and others has been reduced.

So I'm not sure it explains his dominance, but rather is just a component. And maybe it's just as you say.

Don't know, but it doesn't have to be a magical "Sky only" or "Froome only" drug or method to explain why he's gone from anonymity to unbeatable.

 

[retzko]

I must say c. Froome is the most unbelievable transformation i have ever seen in cycling.

His attacks are really ...not normal. I must say that the Giro gave me some hope...

My experience says that when something looks unbelievable the than they are doped. ex gewiss , festina, us post and LA...AC and rasmussen sprinting the mountains. Rijs with that big gear on hautacam.

But in the end if nothing is proven and there are not even rumours wat can you say? With LA you had the backdated prescriptions , the Ferrari link , bruyneel , the retro tested samples etc
With SKY we only have leinders I guess?

Then again a youngster like Kelderman is almost on the same level.
When you see the final metres of today s stagen then you see that kelderman is going really fast ..it s jus that the alien is going faster.

 

[retzko]

Like a lot of posters say Froome could be an extreme responder to conventional PED s. He probably was clean before.

Almost every rider who makes it to a protour team has a lot of talent.
And then the details in preparation make the difference.

It reminds me of Big MIG .... medicore rider becomes GT winner with the introduction of a new PED

 

[Parrulo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXcCOip7Dk

Attacking twice.
Bringing back Kelderman and dropping Nibali with that tempo.
Bringing back JvdB2.
Bringing back Talansky.
Bringing back Kelderman.
Bringing back Talansky.

Followed by this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nRXcCOip7Dk#t=700

One word:
AWESOME.

I hope David Walsh loved this show. Tactical masterclass.

I love how according to Kirby, Froome does "the old 1-2" all by himself, no need of a second guy for the 1-2. Froome does it all by himself

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Like a lot of posters say Froome could be an extreme responder to conventional PED s. He probably was clean before.

Almost every rider who makes it to a protour team has a lot of talent.
And then the details in preparation make the difference.

It reminds me of Big MIG .... medicore rider becomes GT winner with the introduction of a new PED

Big Mig had won the Tour de l'Avenir
That's way more than Froome had done before becoming a GT winner

 

[pastronef]

does Michelle Cound read the clinic?

is she reading twitter and the forums these days and TODAY? wow she must be p

 

[rainman]

I love how according to Kirby, Froome does "the old 1-2" all by himself, no need of a second guy for the 1-2. Froome does it all by himself

I think in this context he meant first attack to soften them up, second to break them. It was an amazing show but can he keep doing that, day after day. If he can he's making alien history. Tactically he's still racing under 16's.

 

[Will Carter]

I think this is the most important factor in Froome's case. Seeing where he came from (which basically is getting smoked in every race until Vuelta '12), I think he's an outstanding responder to PED or one specific method particularly.

But like the posts previously, this couldn't be some kind of blood doping since it would trip the passport - yes we know it is flawed, but not that flawed surely? It couldn't just be fat strippers, it has to be power / efficiency based (I doubt its AICAR since that can be tested for and has been withdrawn I thought).

 

[thehog]

But like the posts previously, this couldn't be some kind of blood doping since it would trip the passport - yes we know it is flawed, but not that flawed surely? It couldn't just be fat strippers, it has to be power / efficiency based (I doubt its AICAR since that can be tested for and has been withdrawn I thought).

The passport is not a doping or drug trapper. It measures baselines and consistency in specific blood values.

Throw in sickness and multiple visits to altitude and there's not a lot of chance that you'd gone down for anything. You may get a letter but easily explained by either altitude or sickness or both.

Why do you think they keep going back and forth to Tiede? The passport in its present form can't keep up with that.

 

[Will Carter]

The passport is not a doping or drug trapper. It measures baselines and consistency.

Throw in sickness and multiple visits to altitude and there's not a lot of chance that you'd gone down for anything. You may get a letter but easily explained by either altitude or sickness or both.

Why do you think they keep going back and forth to Tiede?

I can't answer the Tiede bit, and I'm not an expert on altitude training and how effective it is (other than feeling knackered and a bit dizzy when I ski), but surely if it was blood based then the pre-Vuelta increase would stick out like a sore thumb? Esp compared with prior years?

Like someone said - to super respond you'd need to go from 40% to 50%, not 46% to 50% (or similar). And if it was that easy to muck around with the passport by going to altitude (and back) wouldn't everyone have done it years ago?

 

[rhubroma]

I think in this context he meant first attack to soften them up, second to break them. It was an amazing show but can he keep doing that, day after day. If he can he's making alien history. Tactically he's still racing under 16's.

Precisely. Not even Armstrong road in the saddle like that. It's just ridiculous, while he is tactically inept. Though he could bully the competition today, that certainly won't earn him any mercy in a possible moment of weakness tomorrow.

If Contador is on the up surge of form, then when he gets there Froome will pay dearly for such efforts.

 

[SundayRider]

I can't answer the Tiede bit, and I'm not an expert on altitude training and how effective it is (other than feeling knackered and a bit dizzy when I ski), but surely if it was blood based then the pre-Vuelta increase would stick out like a sore thumb? Esp compared with prior years?

Like someone said - to super respond you'd need to go from 40% to 50%, not 46% to 50% (or similar). And if it was that easy to muck around with the passport by going to altitude (and back) wouldn't everyone have done it years ago?

It's costly isn't backwards and forwards to Tiede.

 

[thehog]

I can't answer the Tiede bit, and I'm not an expert on altitude training and how effective it is (other than feeling knackered and a bit dizzy when I ski), but surely if it was blood based then the pre-Vuelta increase would stick out like a sore thumb? Esp compared with prior years?

Like someone said - to super respond you'd need to go from 40% to 50%, not 46% to 50% (or similar). And if it was that easy to muck around with the passport by going to altitude (and back) wouldn't everyone have done it years ago?

Doesn't matter if they stick out or not. If you have a reason or explanation for those values then you're fine.

Sickness and visits to altitude discount those "spikes".

ie Badzhilla and Tiede.

The other part to mention is they're not being tested every day for the passport. So they don't have a granular view of doping. Just a 20,000ft view.