Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[daveyt]

Both probably.

What do you think?

No reason to doubt that they hired top wind tunnel experts..... but wind tunnel time is chuffing dear even for F1 teams so would surely just be for riders they thought were going to win stuff. And that wasn't Froome at the time.... this is so obvious I feel I must have missed something from your post?

 

[Jspear]

I just did a quick google search "chris froome wind tunnel."
This was one of the first things that came up.

https://www.facebook.com/froomechristopher/posts/524326314290207

 

[the sceptic]

No reason to doubt that they hired top wind tunnel experts..... but wind tunnel time is chuffing dear even for F1 teams so would surely just be for riders they thought were going to win stuff. And that wasn't Froome at the time.... this is so obvious I feel I must have missed something from your post?

Yes, I think you might be missing something.

I do agree that there was not much point in putting Dawg in the wind tunnel when he was trying to keep up with Henderson in the gruppetto.

The point is that he still had not been in a wind tunnel long after his transformation, when he was one of the best TTers in the world.

Either they are lying, or they are grossly incompetent, which undermines the whole "sky are doing the little things better than everyone else" mantra.

 

[Netserk]

No reason to doubt that they hired top wind tunnel experts..... but wind tunnel time is chuffing dear even for F1 teams so would surely just be for riders they thought were going to win stuff. And that wasn't Froome at the time.... this is so obvious I feel I must have missed something from your post?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...hine-this-year-is-a-mini-tour-de-france-29915

May 30, 2013

But the time trial is something I’ve been working on quite a bit. I went to the wind tunnel for the first time a week ago so that was interesting to see if there are any small changes I can make there to get a bit faster.

Now remember he beat Wiggins in the ITT in the Vuelta '11 and that he got 3rd in the Olympic ITT in 2012.

 

[daveyt]

Yes, I think you might be missing something.

I do agree that there was not much point in putting Dawg in the wind tunnel when he was trying to keep up with Henderson in the gruppetto.

The point is that he still had not been in a wind tunnel long after his transformation, when he was one of the best TTers in the world.

Either they are lying, or they are grossly incompetent, which undermines the whole "sky are doing the little things better than everyone else" mantra.

They've never pretended they realised Froome's potential, yes it was a mistake not sticking him in there sooner but never mind aye. All worked out alright.

I suppose that could be seen as incompetent, but they alrwady had their plans in place for Wiggibs. Sport is supposed to be surprising, it's about making the least mistakes and doing the most thing right. Perfection doesn't exist.

 

[daveyt]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...hine-this-year-is-a-mini-tour-de-france-29915

May 30, 2013



Now remember he beat Wiggins in the ITT in the Vuelta '11 and that he got 3rd in the Olympic ITT in 2012.

Thanks for the recap....

 

[the sceptic]

They've never pretended they realised Froome's potential, yes it was a mistake not sticking him in there sooner but never mind aye. All worked out alright.

I suppose that could be seen as incompetent, but they alrwady had their plans in place for Wiggibs. Sport is supposed to be surprising, it's about making the least mistakes and doing the most thing right. Perfection doesn't exist.

What?......

 

[daveyt]

What?......

They've never pretended they realised Froome's potential, yes it was a mistake not sticking him in there sooner but never mind aye. All worked out alright.

I suppose that could be seen as incompetent, but they already had their plans in place for Wiggins. Sport is supposed to be surprising, it's about making the least mistakes and doing the most thing right. Perfection doesn't exist.

 

[the sceptic]

They've never pretended they realised Froome's potential, yes it was a mistake not sticking him in there sooner but never mind aye. All worked out alright.

I suppose that could be seen as incompetent, but they already had their plans in place for Wiggins. Sport is supposed to be surprising, it's about making the least mistakes and doing the most thing right. Perfection doesn't exist.

Yes, all is well. Everything sky say or do can be excused and Froome has never tested positive.

 

[daveyt]

Yes, all is well. Everything sky say or do can be excused and Froome has never tested positive.

Yep.

Hard to keep track of everyone's stance, how prolific do you think doping is? Most teams running programs covered up by Cookson and the press or riders acting on there own?

 

[Dr. Juice]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...hine-this-year-is-a-mini-tour-de-france-29915

May 30, 2013



Now remember he beat Wiggins in the ITT in the Vuelta '11 and that he got 3rd in the Olympic ITT in 2012.

Just saw a picture of Wiggins at the Olympic TT. Damn, he was every bit as skinny as Froome

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Just saw a picture of Wiggins at the Olympic TT. Damn, he was every bit as skinny as Froome

2012 was a ridiculous year. In so many ways. The Tour performance of Sky was - off - the - charts.

 

[Granville57]

Sport is supposed to be surprising

It is?


Surprise!

“This demonstration makes me neither hot nor cold. It even leaves me completely perplexed. I do not believe at all in his sincerity. We do not know where it comes from, and especially from where he has returned. Apart from the Tour of Burgos (in early August) where he finished third overall, he did not exist until then! In Angliru nobody could follow him… [well] Pantani could have. Or a Contador in top shape. No, really, it's a little too much.”

-Jean Francois Bernard

 

[burning]

It is?


Surprise!

Considering the fact that Froome's best result was beating Contador in Vuelta Castilla Leon, he was much more visible compared to Cobo.

 

[the sceptic]

Considering the fact that Froome's best result was beating Contador in Vuelta Castilla Leon, he was much more visible compared to Cobo.

Wiggo almost looks ashamed of himself. "damn I used to be anti-doping and now this"

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Considering the fact that Froome's best result was beating Contador in Vuelta Castilla Leon, he was much more visible compared to Cobo.

Considering he beat Contador, he still lost to legendary GT climbers like Ricardo García and people who were obviously at their peak in 2011 like Dario Cioni and Santiago Pérez. He did beat a 21-year-old Quintana by ten seconds though.

Obviously though, being 14th in a .1 stage race is more prominent than finishing on the podium of the main Vuelta warmup race.

For the record though:

# CQ points obtained in 2011 by Juan José Cobo up to August 19th: 213
# CQ points obtained in 2011 by Chris Froome up to August 19th: 62

# World Tour races entered by Chris Froome up to August 19th: 4 (all stage races)
# World Tour races entered by Juan José Cobo up to August 19th: 2 (one stage race, one Classic)

best GT finishing position prior to 2011 Vuelta for Juan José Cobo: 10th (2009 Vuelta)
best GT finishing position prior to 2011 Vuelta for Chris Froome: 36th (2009 Giro)

# World Tour level wins by Juan José Cobo prior to 2011 Vuelta: 5 (2 stages & the GC at País Vasco, stage wins of Tour and Vuelta)
# World Tour level wins by Chris Froome prior to 2011 Vuelta: 0

Sure, Cobo had been woeful in 2010. But his medical problems were known about. Froome's were not, therefore Cobo performing up a level when reunited with a team he was comfortable with, after having had a disaster at a team he didn't gel with, while a marked transformation, had a reason that many had pointed out ever since the beginning of the season. Cobo was racing for a team that hadn't got to do the Tour so had been focusing on the Vuelta for months. The race had a large number of medium-sized climbs (the kind Cobo has done best on career-long) in Cobo's home region and neighbouring País Vasco (where Cobo had his biggest stage racing successes to date) and in extreme heat, which Cobo has a good record in (see the Volta a Portugal and the 2009 Vuelta, which had its main stages in the south).

Really, who was the bigger surprise?

 

[Granville57]

Really, who was the bigger surprise?

Froome, no doubt. Made all the more surprising by riding a faster time than the surprising Cobo.

I use the Cobo example mostly for entertainment. One of the most damning things about Cobo though has been his performance (or lack of), since the Vuelta.

But when Froome and Cobo are put side-by-side (which they literally were 2011) the anomalies of both become even more amplified.

Wiggo almost looks ashamed of himself.

All three of them look embarrassed.

"OK, hands up if you're clean!"

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Froome, no doubt. Made all the more surprising by riding a faster time than the surprising Cobo.

I use the Cobo example mostly for entertainment. One of the most damning things about Cobo though has been his performance (or lack of), since the Vuelta.

But when Froome and Cobo are put side-by-side (which they literally were 2011) the anomalies of both become even more amplified.


All three of them look embarrassed.

"OK, hands up if you're clean!"

Cobo's psychological problems play into that a lot. He was not happy at Caisse d'Epargne in 2010 and they didn't really know how to handle him. They only took him on with the cut price because of the Geox collapse and pressure to have the Vuelta winner at the main Spanish team. He for his part didn't deal well with performance expectations and by most accounts was happier with the pressure off. That Vuelta had the perfect storm of factors for him - he had a few performances early season but had had few race days in the early summer, he had good form coming in; Menchov lost a lot of stupid time early on giving him the opportunity to ride for himself; a number of pre-race favourites underperformed (Antón, Scarponi, Rodríguez, Nibali), and his main competition was an even bigger shock transformer than him, hence the team clipped his wings to favour a more proven commodity; had Wiggins lost a bit of time earlier in the race like Menchov, Sky may have given Froome more freedom and Cobo would never have won; Menchov was arguably the strongest in week 3, but spent the whole time domestiquing for Cobo (though Froome did discover a whole new level of skills like sprinting for bonus seconds late in the race); a bit of a tame finale to the race in terms of parcours meaning Froome's opportunities to take the time back once Wiggins finally dropped away were limited; the last MTF being in his home region in front of his home fans (seriously, I was there on Peña Cabarga, it was over 35º that day, and there were lunatics in full furry bison costumes to cheer him on). He's still the only wildcard winner of a GT since the ProTour began, right?

Sure, he's shady, his performances vary wildly, he's put in some very suspect performances and has had connections to dubious teams in the past (and present) but El Bisonte de la Pesa is one of those guys where there are more factors at play that making a definitive judgement of his talent level, how much was his ability and how much was doping, is nigh on impossible. His Hautacam climb with Piepoli is not what I expect of a clean cyclist, but then I would expect an even moderately talented clean cyclist to be able to cope better in the péloton than Cobo did in 2010 with Caisse. From his junior records I think we can probably surmise Cobo is at least a moderately talented cyclist, and therefore think there was more to differentiate 2010 Cobo from 2011 Cobo than "clean Bisonte/dirty Bisonte".

 

[Granville57]

That Vuelta had the perfect storm of factors for him...

Excellent post, as usual.

All of that does go a long way in explaining just how Cobo managed that Vuelta victory, regardless of what doping may have been in play. I mean, it's not like doping automatically=GT victory, otherwise we would've had multiple 100-way ties for first place over the past few decades.

Not that I'm less skeptical of Cobo, but it would appear that he was able to effectively capitalize on that once-in-a-lifetime convergence of events.

 

[Netserk]

Cobo's psychological problems play into that a lot. He was not happy at Caisse d'Epargne in 2010 and they didn't really know how to handle him. They only took him on with the cut price because of the Geox collapse and pressure to have the Vuelta winner at the main Spanish team. He for his part didn't deal well with performance expectations and by most accounts was happier with the pressure off. That Vuelta had the perfect storm of factors for him - he had a few performances early season but had had few race days in the early summer, he had good form coming in; Menchov lost a lot of stupid time early on giving him the opportunity to ride for himself; a number of pre-race favourites underperformed (Antón, Scarponi, Rodríguez, Nibali), and his main competition was an even bigger shock transformer than him, hence the team clipped his wings to favour a more proven commodity; had Wiggins lost a bit of time earlier in the race like Menchov, Sky may have given Froome more freedom and Cobo would never have won; Menchov was arguably the strongest in week 3, but spent the whole time domestiquing for Cobo (though Froome did discover a whole new level of skills like sprinting for bonus seconds late in the race); a bit of a tame finale to the race in terms of parcours meaning Froome's opportunities to take the time back once Wiggins finally dropped away were limited; the last MTF being in his home region in front of his home fans (seriously, I was there on Peña Cabarga, it was over 35º that day, and there were lunatics in full furry bison costumes to cheer him on). He's still the only wildcard winner of a GT since the ProTour began, right?

Sure, he's shady, his performances vary wildly, he's put in some very suspect performances and has had connections to dubious teams in the past (and present) but El Bisonte de la Pesa is one of those guys where there are more factors at play that making a definitive judgement of his talent level, how much was his ability and how much was doping, is nigh on impossible. His Hautacam climb with Piepoli is not what I expect of a clean cyclist, but then I would expect an even moderately talented clean cyclist to be able to cope better in the péloton than Cobo did in 2010 with Caisse. From his junior records I think we can probably surmise Cobo is at least a moderately talented cyclist, and therefore think there was more to differentiate 2010 Cobo from 2011 Cobo than "clean Bisonte/dirty Bisonte".

I guess that depends on your view on 2008 Astana.

 

[The Hitch]

"and the trolls come marching in. "

"please tell me that at least you get paid for this"

So the fact they have a different view from you means they are trolls and shouldn't post here? Roll on censorship ...

Nah, the fact that every other user to turn up in the month after a noted troll was banned, and post non stop in the clinic with extremely ridiculous logic, has turned out to be a troll/ former banned user returning.

At some point people are going to be conditioned to, every time it happens, assume its a troll and not some honest user who just happened to discover the clinic yesterday but feels strongly enough about all the issues to post daily and just happens to have the same behaviour and logic failures as the previous banned user.

 

[The Hitch]

No reason to doubt that they hired top wind tunnel experts..... but wind tunnel time is chuffing dear even for F1 teams so would surely just be for riders they thought were going to win stuff. And that wasn't Froome at the time.... this is so obvious I feel I must have missed something from your post?

hmmm, I thought Froome's failure to win at the 2012 Vuelta was supposed to be a sign that he isn't doping (since historically everyone knows dopers won everything of course).

But what you are saying is that SKy were lying when they sent him to the 2012 Vuelta, as they didn't really expect him to win and didn't bother training him for it. Was too expensive.

 

[The Hitch]

They've never pretended they realised Froome's potential

Another blatant lie from you. Brailsford claims he and Shane Sutton discovered Froome in 2006, and Walsh says they and several members of Sky team remarked after the 2009 Giro del Capo that this was going to be a future star.

 

[The Hitch]

Considering the fact that Froome's best result was beating Contador in Vuelta Castilla Leon, he was much more visible compared to Cobo.

Eh, Cobo was one of the secondary favourites for the race, and a number of people here bet on him to win and had him in their top 10 pre the race.

Froome didn't even have odds

 

[red_flanders]

I had heard of Cobo before the race.