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Apr 20, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
I really appreciate the apologies, I do get a bit wound up when I feel I being misrepresented. I generally try not to throw accusations around, preferring to give the riders the benefit of the doubt. I agree Nibali's domination was very similar to Sky's last year, and if you question one you must question the other.
You should email Walsh James, or twitter him, but he has warned that he will block people who do so :rolleyes:
 
Jul 29, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
I really appreciate the apologies, I do get a bit wound up when I feel I being misrepresented. I generally try not to throw accusations around, preferring to give the riders the benefit of the doubt. I agree Nibali's domination was very similar to Sky's last year, and if you question one you must question the other.
Oh here we go...First of all Nibali did something before 2011...

Second the competition in the giro was weak as hell, froome was toying with a guy named 'nibali', you know him?

And nibali's team was nowhere near as good as sky.

Don't get me wrong nibali's peformance is suspicious but don't put him on the same level as sky.
 
May 26, 2009
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JimmyFingers said:
I agree Nibali's domination was very similar to Sky's last year, and if you question one you must question the other.
Err what race did you watch? If you said: Nibs is even more suspicious due to him reigning supreme without a team I could have agreed, but what you say here is astute falsification of what happened.

The difference between the performance of Astana and Sky is lightyears. Sky still looks the most like Banesto, Telekom, USPS, in other words we certainly have seen similar dominance before, but it's not anything like Astana 2013.
 
May 23, 2010
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Exactly. It's not even close.

Nibali killing a weak Giro field is not akin to Sky killing everyone and Froome in turn killing his teammates like he's playing with a kitten.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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You all sound remarkably like people defending Sky's win.

Nibali looked head and shoulders above anyone else in that race. He never had a bad day, and looked like he had further gears to go through if he needed. His ITT was hugely improved. I'm not making inferences in that but it was a very powerful display of riding in very difficult conditions. Chapeau to him, he's one of the hardest riders out there.

Franklin, what do you mean by without a team? Nibali had some very strong doms supporting him, Aru and Tangart (sp?) in particular.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Are you referring to Brad's second half? Yes it was huge, which does put credence to the fact physically he's as good as he was last year. His half time split must have been a shock and he burnt up the second half of the course. May have done himself some damage doing it too. That said wasn't Evans fastest up the final climb?

My take on it the loss of Yates and Sutton have impacted heavily on Wiggins' mental approach and coping mechanisms. I certainly think Nibali beat him there, and it's a credit to Nibs.

I really don't want to be seen to be saying anything about Nibali, I don't like to make those sort inferences from performances. It's certainly plausible he rode the Giro clean, and certainly so much of that win was built on mental toughness as much as physical prowess. He gets the benefit of the doubt from me, until proven otherwise.

But he did dominate it.
 
I'm talking about Nibali's splits. Compare it with Evans and the first ITT in last year's Tour.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ao5-isr01pbpdG9lN3FoV1diNW9Cd2s4UkE3WjVhTUE#gid=0

He took time in the technical part. Lost to Evans and Scarponi in the flat part, and lost to Wiggo and Evans on the hill.

EDIT: last year he lost 24 seconds to Evans over 41.5km. He beat Menchov, Klöden, Costa & Brajkovic.

EDIT2: In '12 he lost 3 s/km to Wiggo. In '13 he lost 2.67 s/km. Note that the flat part of the ITT in the Giro still had a hill and a descent.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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The ITT or the race? He didn't even win the first ITT so I wasn't suggesting that. He did dominate the race, looked very comfortable throughout, and as his last stage win showed, was riding within himself for most of it
 
He may have, who knows, put him in a Worlds TT against Cancellara Martin Wiggins Grabsch Phinney Durbridge Dowsett and he wouldn't beat them, a long technical hilly TT after 8 days does not exactly provide a great reference point on pure ability. Wiggins went from a strong TT'er (never winning an elite long one) to a completely dominant one in the space of an off-season at a time which people believe is after the date he commenced doping, so it's not like his TT improvement can be down the the discovery of EPO for the first time. Same for Contador in Annecy.

And no, Evans was no better in the Giro than he was in the Tour last year. Not in the first week at least, where he was very strong in the Tour.
 
Ferminal said:
He may have, who knows, put him in a Worlds TT against Cancellara Martin Wiggins Grabsch Phinney Durbridge Dowsett and he wouldn't beat them, a long technical hilly TT after 8 days does not exactly provide a great reference point on pure ability. Wiggins went from a strong TT'er (never winning an elite long one) to a completely dominant one in the space of an off-season at a time which people believe is after the date he commenced doping, so it's not like his TT improvement can be down the the discovery of EPO for the first time. Same for Contador in Annecy.

And no, Evans was no better in the Giro than he was in the Tour last year. Not in the first week at least, where he was very strong in the Tour.
There is doping and then there is doping.

See Simoni beating Olano in a 55km TT in the Giro.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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I would also suggest he has been climbing better this season. T-A, Trentino, Giro have all been very impressive from him. We'll see what he manages in the Vuelta and the Worlds now
 
Jul 17, 2012
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roundabout said:
There is doping and then there is doping.

See Simoni beating Olano in a 55km TT in the Giro.
No, there's just doping. Levels or degrees don't come into it. You dope a little or you dope big, you're a cheat, end of.
 
JimmyFingers said:
I would also suggest he has been climbing better this season. T-A, Trentino, Giro have all been very impressive from him. We'll see what he manages in the Vuelta and the Worlds now
I don't think anyone disagrees, but he improved in the previous off-season too. He's less erratic, that is the biggest improvement (let's not diminish the pure ability required in trading blows with Eze and Rodriguez). These days everyone can be 99% for the whole season and 100% every stage of a GT!
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Netserk said:
See my first comment ;) Yes he has stepped up. But not that much.
I'm not claiming any transformation for Nibs, just an improvement. Has obviously worked on his ITT technique and has been training hard for the climbs.

In Tenerife ;) #trollalalalala
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Ferminal said:
I don't think anyone disagrees, but he improved in the previous off-season too. He's less erratic, that is the biggest improvement (let's not diminish the pure ability required in trading blows with Eze and Rodriguez). These days everyone can be 99% for the whole season and 100% every stage of a GT!
Except he's bowing out until the Vuelta and the Worlds. But I appreciate what you're driving out. Doping is less turbo charging these days and more focused on recovery and consistency.
 

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