Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Sep 29, 2012
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Ryo Hazuki said:
I would like to point out that in the past I've always believed armstrong and us epostal were doping. same with mid 2000s csc that were ridiculous. and alot of smaller spanish cycling teams like kelme. I was always right. but now the doping is mostly gone. cycling is cleaner than ever and in the very rare occasion that I believe doping has occurred it is easily seen like aru in giro 2015 transfusion in final week. what makes me happy is that all the top riders are clean(ish) which is proven by the rise of colombian cycling similar to what happened in the 80s but is also proven by the fact riders sit dead on their bikes. especially towards end of a gt or a classic. one has to simply look back at videos of 20 years ago to see the difference. gt's are now being decided by marginal gaps instead of 10-12 minutes on podiums during the 90s and early 2000s
I suppose you believe in the Easter bunny too?

"Clean" cycling? That is funny.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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So let's review the evidence of all the top riders except Aru being cleanish presented by ryo:

Ryo the oracle correctly inferred that Armstrong and a few others were doped and Ryo the oracle now thinks riders are clean
Colombians are now doing well
Tighter margins these days

lol
 
SeriousSam said:
So let's review the evidence of all the top riders except Aru being cleanish presented by ryo:

Ryo the oracle correctly inferred that Armstrong and a few others were doped and Ryo the oracle now thinks riders are clean
Colombians are now doing well
Tighter margins these days

lol
Don't forget "It's obvious"
 
May 26, 2010
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With Wiggins full of cortisone and who knows what else, Froome was still considerably stronger than Wiggins at La Vuelta '11 and La Tour '12.

Wonder what gave Froome the wings to be better than Wiggins big injections and other things?
 
Aug 15, 2012
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Ryo Hazuki said:
aru was guided by ferrari. I"m sure of that also him coming from palazzago team. so yes he was the only one. this year no more transfusions and help from ferrari and we've seen the real aru, one who fades in the third week. I'm sure that's why nibali hates him and there are 2 camps. the aru camp who try to reach for the boundaries of what is allowed and or not traced and nibali camp, who rides clean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv_g4BJregQ :rolleyes:
 
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Ryo Hazuki said:
aru was guided by ferrari. I"m sure of that also him coming from palazzago team. so yes he was the only one. this year no more transfusions and help from ferrari and we've seen the real aru, one who fades in the third week. I'm sure that's why nibali hates him and there are 2 camps. the aru camp who try to reach for the boundaries of what is allowed and or not traced and nibali camp, who rides clean
You're absolutely right...Aru faded badly in the 3rd week. Therefore, your assertion is that a clean top GT contender would/should show similar characteristics of Aru in the 3rd week of a GT? (absence an illness or injury). So, why, in your opinion, are other top GT guys not showing fatigue and fading badly in the 3rd week of a GT, particularly in the high climbs? Even the 70s & 80s had widespread use of steriods, amphetamines & T, which I think would aid in recovery somewhat during a gruelling GT.

And Nabali? Why didn't he also fade in the 3rd week of the Giro, like his teammate, Aru, did in the Tour? Nabali looked awful strong after his miracle resurrection in the Giro.

I'm really trying to follow your logic on this...
 
Re:

Benotti69 said:
With Wiggins full of cortisone and who knows what else, Froome was still considerably stronger than Wiggins at La Vuelta '11 and La Tour '12.

Wonder what gave Froome the wings to be better than Wiggins big injections and other things?
Natural talent.

The same natural talent that carried him to his epic top 90 at the 08 TdF
 
Aug 10, 2016
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The whole doping thing has always annoyed me, but what they've done to Froome actually scares me, it's almost like it's some kind of secret government cyborg program - it's turning cycling into a freak show, the whole TUE thing is small beer in comparison
 
Mar 31, 2010
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PremierAndrew said:
Benotti69 said:
With Wiggins full of cortisone and who knows what else, Froome was still considerably stronger than Wiggins at La Vuelta '11 and La Tour '12.

Wonder what gave Froome the wings to be better than Wiggins big injections and other things?
Natural talent.

The same natural talent that carried him to his epic top 90 at the 08 TdF
he rode for a gc placing in 2008? :rolleyes:
 
Re:

Barzini said:
The whole doping thing has always annoyed me, but what they've done to Froome actually scares me, it's almost like it's some kind of secret government cyborg program - it's turning cycling into a freak show, the whole TUE thing is small beer in comparison

I don’t think the TUE stuff can compare to the benefits of O2-vector doping in relation to endurance sports. Wouldn't the TUE drugs be put in the same realm of Armstrong’s characterization of "low-octane" doping? In the 70s & 80s there was widespread use of steriods, amphetamines, T & cortisone, but it wasn't until EPO hit the peloton in the 90s that things went insane with the incredible increase in climbing speeds. In fact, both LeMond & Fignon had said they've never seen anything like it when EPO was introduced into the peloton as they were getting outclimbed by other team's domestiques. So much for substantial performance gains with "low-octane" doping in the earlier era.

So, with Froome, if he's doping what would he be doing in the era of the ABP to explain his dominant Tour performances? Even LA looked more human in his 09 comeback when he couldn't boost his below average baseline Hct 20+ % like he did during his dynasty when he just had to worry about the 50% limit. Certainly with the bio passport there's variability allowed within the upper & lower parameters of the established rider's baseline Hb/Hct. But how much could a rider boost Hct percentage-wise with EPO without infringing on the upper parameters, or transfuse and raise Hct significantly without suppressing reticulocytes too much infringing on the lower parameters? And Ashenden's paper on microdosing EPO showed a modest 10% increase in Hb mass with a corresponding average Off-score of ~116. Could a 10% increase explain dominant Tour performances? Would a rider push the Off-score up (I believe >134 is needed for conclusive evidence of blood-manipulation) in an effort to boost Hb considerably higher (probably would need more than microdosing amounts?). OTOH, with the sensitivity susposedly improving on detecting microdosing beyond the general 7-9 hr window (according to a 2013 study), are riders being advised to eliminate microdosing and only utilize transfusions to maintain a stable passport?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24190107

Could AICAR be the secret (or not so secret) weapon? The CIRC report tells us that AICAR is popular in the peloton. However, the only scientific study on AICAR is an animal model that suggests a significant increase in endurance. The main problem I see with AICAR as the magic bullet is that "everyone" would be on it and I would think by now some careless/over zealous rider would have overdosed on it causing the first positive test.

So, for The Clinic, any ideas on how Froome is so dominate in the ABP era? Inquiring minds want to know :)
 
Oct 16, 2010
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@nomad. Offtopic correction: According to the peloton at the time (and even later when boogerd and Landis rode), it was lemond himself who introduced epo into the peloton. Him falling behind in 91 and 92 had nothing to do with epo but more with his body breaking into pieces like rafael Nadal avant later lettre. Max Testa (yes that testa) said it was because lemond had used too much drugs during his carreer.
Read more in the lemond thread and the evidence thread.
 
Re:

sniper said:
@nomad. Offtopic correction: According to the peloton at the time (and even later when boogerd and Landis rode), it was lemond himself who introduced epo into the peloton. Him falling behind in 91 and 92 had nothing to do with epo but more with his body breaking into pieces like rafael Nadal avant later lettre. Max Testa (yes that testa) said it was because lemond had used too much drugs during his carreer.
Read more in the lemond thread and the evidence thread.
Sorry about that sniper...I didn't know. I generally don't follow the LeMond threads as my research is more on PED use in the modern era and the ABP. I just assumed that it was general consensus that LeMond never used EPO or any PEDs. I always fiqured that with his freakishly high VO2max, he was a naturally talented endurance athlete who couldn't keep up in the EPO epidemic era, and sadly had to give up. But I know you have done extensive research in that area...so I'll look at some of those threads (btw, any threads on his high VO2max?).
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Nomad said:
sniper said:
@nomad. Offtopic correction: According to the peloton at the time (and even later when boogerd and Landis rode), it was lemond himself who introduced epo into the peloton. Him falling behind in 91 and 92 had nothing to do with epo but more with his body breaking into pieces like rafael Nadal avant later lettre. Max Testa (yes that testa) said it was because lemond had used too much drugs during his carreer.
Read more in the lemond thread and the evidence thread.
Sorry about that sniper...I didn't know. I generally don't follow the LeMond threads as my research is more on PED use in the modern era and the ABP. I just assumed that it was general consensus that LeMond never used EPO or any PEDs. I always fiqured that with his freakishly high VO2max, he was a naturally talented endurance athlete who couldn't keep up in the EPO epidemic era, and sadly had to give up. But I know you have done extensive research in that area...so I'll look at some of those threads (btw, any threads on his high VO2max?).
When he says "According to the peloton", he's actually saying that one or two riders, that never raced with Lemond, have accused him of not only using EPO but being the godfather of doping. Of course, this is clearly contradicted by Lemond's peers who regard him as clean.

To quote Greg himself: "“It was a Dutch friend Cees Beers, founder of ADA wheels, that talked to Massimo Testa in 1994. I met Cees Beers in 1992 at the Tour of Holland. He came to see me with a set of full carbon wheels and a new technology that he said would provide me insight to everything I did in training and racing. The system was called SRM. He put me into contact with Adrie Van Diemen, whom I consider one of the best physiologists in the world. In 1993 I started and using the SRM system on a fulltime basis, and I hired Adrie as a full time trainer in August of 1993. Between the SRM data, Adrie Van Diemen, Cees Beers, my vo2 max testing that I did in MSP with another physiologist, Dan Zeman, I started to see some weird results and a definite pattern. When recovered, and with time off the bike, I could test at a world class level with a high Vo2 max, 6.4 liters of o2 at max heart rate. If I tested when exhausted, as I did just after the1991 Tour de France, my o2 intake would drop by a significant amount, in 1993 it dropped around 10%. We thought it was an anomaly until the same pattern kept repeating itself in 1992 and again in 1993 and 1994. Each time when I would return home to the USA I would get a physical and do a Vo2 max test. We started to see uptake of o2 drop by 15-20% in 92,93, and in 1994. No could understand what was going on. In 1994 Cees Beers contacted Massimo Testa to see if he might have some insight to what was going on. Massimo supposedly cut to the chase with Cees and told him that I was finished and cooked because I took so many drugs in my career, especially after my comeback in 1989. Cees was shocked and told Massimo that I was not taking drugs and that there was something else going on. It never went further than that.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/storm-exclusive-interview-greg-lemond_347148#A5gE0v06QPDCZt0D.99

John Swanson
 
Re:

ebandit said:
Benotti69 said:
Surprised Froome is not asking for his 2012 TdF win........:D
would any riders suggest that wiggo should be....

DQd....................? how many riders would be cleanser than cleans replacements.........?

Mark L
Good point - I think it's better to vacate the yellow jersey when a rider is DQ'd for that reason. Let's not forget that Oscar Pereiro was busted for doping after inheriting the yellow jersey from Floyd Landis.
 
Re:

sniper said:
@nomad. Offtopic correction: According to the peloton at the time (and even later when boogerd and Landis rode), it was lemond himself who introduced epo into the peloton. Him falling behind in 91 and 92 had nothing to do with epo but more with his body breaking into pieces like rafael Nadal avant later lettre. Max Testa (yes that testa) said it was because lemond had used too much drugs during his carreer.
Read more in the lemond thread and the evidence thread.
You need to be a lot more specific than "According to the peloton at the time". You say this as if it is common knowledge which it is/was not and still is arguable regardless of what you may believe or attest to being fact.
 
May 26, 2010
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ebandit said:
Benotti69 said:
Surprised Froome is not asking for his 2012 TdF win........:D
would any riders suggest that wiggo should be....

DQd....................? how many riders would be cleanser than cleans replacements.........?

Mark L
I think the silence from current riders tells us all are abusing PEDs.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
ebandit said:
Benotti69 said:
Surprised Froome is not asking for his 2012 TdF win........:D
would any riders suggest that wiggo should be....

DQd....................? how many riders would be cleanser than cleans replacements.........?

Mark L
I think the silence from current riders tells us all are abusing PEDs.
Possibly, but there is also the argument that would you put your head above the parapet and say anything ? I know I wouldn't, it's asking for trouble even if you are clean as a new penny. Only Sky are daft enough to do that, well in the past anyway :lol:
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

bigcog said:
Benotti69 said:
ebandit said:
Benotti69 said:
Surprised Froome is not asking for his 2012 TdF win........:D
would any riders suggest that wiggo should be....

DQd....................? how many riders would be cleanser than cleans replacements.........?

Mark L
I think the silence from current riders tells us all are abusing PEDs.
Possibly, but there is also the argument that would you put your head above the parapet and say anything ? I know I wouldn't, it's asking for trouble even if you are clean as a new penny. Only Sky are daft enough to do that, well in the past anyway :lol:
If you were clean as a new penny, would you not want the shyte from the bad pennies not to stick to you?

Nope only old pence around these days.
 
Re: Re:

Ryo Hazuki said:
PremierAndrew said:
Benotti69 said:
With Wiggins full of cortisone and who knows what else, Froome was still considerably stronger than Wiggins at La Vuelta '11 and La Tour '12.

Wonder what gave Froome the wings to be better than Wiggins big injections and other things?
Natural talent.

The same natural talent that carried him to his epic top 90 at the 08 TdF
he rode for a gc placing in 2008? :rolleyes:
If it makes you happy, Froome showed more potential to end up as a Tour winner than Wiggins. But then Wiggins isn't the dominant stage racer of his era
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

PremierAndrew said:
Ryo Hazuki said:
PremierAndrew said:
Benotti69 said:
With Wiggins full of cortisone and who knows what else, Froome was still considerably stronger than Wiggins at La Vuelta '11 and La Tour '12.

Wonder what gave Froome the wings to be better than Wiggins big injections and other things?
Natural talent.

The same natural talent that carried him to his epic top 90 at the 08 TdF
he rode for a gc placing in 2008? :rolleyes:
If it makes you happy, Froome showed more potential to end up as a Tour winner than Wiggins. But then Wiggins isn't the dominant stage racer of his era
Froome showed nothing, so much so that Sky wanted rid of him and he only got to ride LaVuelta in '11 because another rider, Norhaug (i think) was pulled or ill.

Wiggins had gold medals in his locker prior to transformation.

Both were grupetto fodder and transformed, but Froome's is a greater transformation.
 

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