Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Franklin]

He could probably wave his VO2 max at Lemond if he wanted to.

I never understood the hooplah about VO2 max as I personally am within spitting distance of Greg and am usually pack fodder at the C cat. Of course most likely my test protocol was utterly different than his and is my score inflated. The lab said it was very good, but I didn't see anyone with eyes popping out of their sockets.

I respect Greg, but I don't think VO2 is an indicator of greatness.

 

[vrusimov]

Edvald clean?! That's an assertion I would take with a a rather large pinch of salt.

Edvald rides for Sky and is mountain domestique for them in the Tour. Would Sky allow one of their key helpers for the Tour to stay off the program the rest of the GT-team is on? I find that very hard to believe, but I guess we're going full circle here.

With the history of doping in cycling over the last 20 years no rider can meritlessly expect to be seen as clean just because they say so and certainly not one on the most suspicious team in the peleton. Sadly Edvald is tarnished by the company he keeps and the performances he puts in in what's clearly not a clean peleton.

So sorry I won't suspend my disbelief for him or any other cyclist. Do you want to be believed as clean as a cyclist? Then do all you can to prove it. Then we can talk.

So if you want to use your strawman argument "Sky is clean because Edvald is clean." Please prove the Edvald beeing clean first. The facts are certainly heavily stacked against it.

Clean
The cleanest I've been
An end to the tears
And the in-between years
And the troubles I've seen

Now that I'm clean
You know what I mean
I've broken my fall
Put an end to it all
I've changed my routine
Now I'm clean

 

[simo1733]

I never understood the hooplah about VO2 max as I personally am within spitting distance of Greg and am usually pack fodder at the C cat. Of course most likely my test protocol was utterly different than his and is my score inflated. The lab said it was very good, but I didn't see anyone with eyes popping out of tehir sockets.

I respect Greg, but I don't think VO2 is an indicator of greatness.

+1 I have tested at 83 ml/kg but I was just an average club rider.I guess to be a champ you have to be exceotional in a whole host of category's, if you are substandard in just one area then you are doomed to mediocrity.
Lemond may or may not be the only clean champ of his era, but shoving his VO2 max in peoples faces does not strengthen his argument.

 

[timmers]

I never understood the hooplah about VO2 max as I personally am within spitting distance of Greg and am usually pack fodder at the C cat. Of course most likely my test protocol was utterly different than his and is my score inflated. The lab said it was very good, but I didn't see anyone with eyes popping out of their sockets.

I respect Greg, but I don't think VO2 is an indicator of greatness.

Well possibly you are fat or thin which disrupts the output of VO2 max tests. However one could generalise that in a normal population that someone with a high VO2max will perform better than the general population. But you race a bicycle so you are narrowing the population and you may just be at the bottom of your sub-group neither mind inefficiencies of pedalling styles, bike set up etc.

 

[armchairclimber]

I never understood the hooplah about VO2 max as I personally am within spitting distance of Greg and am usually pack fodder at the C cat. Of course most likely my test protocol was utterly different than his and is my score inflated. The lab said it was very good, but I didn't see anyone with eyes popping out of their sockets.

I respect Greg, but I don't think VO2 is an indicator of greatness.

Whether in edurance running, swimming or cycling V02Max is only a measure of you ability to take up and deliver oxygen. The more important factor interms of ability is the power you generate at V02Max...your efficiency.

 

[frenchfry]

Since the discussion is tending towards efficiency, I would like to know which Sky coach said to Froome "you have a great engine, but in order to unharness it's power you should hold your handlebars as if you are pushing a shopping cart"

That coach is a genius.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Since the discussion is tending towards efficiency, I would like to know which Sky coach said to Froome "you have a great engine, but in order to unharness it's power you should hold your handlebars as if you are pushing a shopping cart"

That coach is a genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lEGpv0xn0E8#t=358s

Looks to me the coach at Aigle was responsible for that technique.

The following is not to ridicule Froome, but is it possible he has some kind of tic? Given his constant watching down on his steer? That said, looks to me like he shed a pound or 10 since then, since 2009 that is.

 

[blackcat]

+1 I have tested at 83 ml/kg but I was just an average club rider.I guess to be a champ you have to be exceotional in a whole host of category's, if you are substandard in just one area then you are doomed to mediocrity.
Lemond may or may not be the only clean champ of his era, but shoving his VO2 max in peoples faces does not strengthen his argument.

a wise cat once was responsible for his aphorism
the ignorance of VO2max has a big debt to Lemond waving 94 like some geisha with a hand fan in 110 fahrenheit in macau

 

[blackcat]

Since the discussion is tending towards efficiency, I would like to know which Sky coach said to Froome "you have a great engine, but in order to unharness it's power you should hold your handlebars as if you are pushing a shopping cart"

That coach is a genius.

pushing shopping carts to me, conjures images of bag lady(ies) with 34.5 cats on their property not registered with the local government dep't.

 

[Pentacycle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lEGpv0xn0E8#t=358s

Looks to me the coach at Aigle was responsible for that technique.

The following is not to ridicule Froome, but is it possible he has some kind of tic? Given his constant watching down on his steer? That said, looks to me like he shed a pound or 10 since then, since 2009 that is.

Let this video also remind you of his horrible technique compared to what he's shown since 2011. He wasted lots of energy with those movements, but they didn't have the knowledge at Barloworld. The 'tic' is something apparently unrelated to having a power meter, he's always done it when riding uphill.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Let this video also remind you of his horrible technique compared to what he's shown since 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ulViOm2PqR8#t=472s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FQqAfOzoIp4#t=3s

Yep, what a change in technique

Same 'technique' only no parkeggio in Spain.

Great commentary in Angliru clip.

 

[maltiv]

Edvald clean?! That's an assertion I would take with a a rather large pinch of salt.

Edvald rides for Sky and is mountain domestique for them in the Tour. Would Sky allow one of their key helpers for the Tour to stay off the program the rest of the GT-team is on? I find that very hard to believe, but I guess we're going full circle here.

Well, they allow him to not go to the pre-TDF Tenerife training camp. The training camp which allegedly is the most important part of their TDF tune-up, involving everyone of the TDF squad except from Edvald (this year and last year). Why would they risk not taking one of their key helpers to said training camp, if it helps so much? Same logic. Remember that Moncoutie rode from a doped up Cofidis team without doping himself.

Also note that EBH was a zero on the UCI suspicion index, while all other (former and current) Sky members were incredibly high: Wiggins 5, Geraint Thomas 6, Sivtsov 8, Knees 6, Eisel 4, Rogers 7, Hunt 7.

 

[hektoren]

Edvald clean?! That's an assertion I would take with a a rather large pinch of salt.

Edvald rides for Sky and is mountain domestique for them in the Tour. Would Sky allow one of their key helpers for the Tour to stay off the program the rest of the GT-team is on? I find that very hard to believe, but I guess we're going full circle here.

With the history of doping in cycling over the last 20 years no rider can meritlessly expect to be seen as clean just because they say so and certainly not one on the most suspicious team in the peleton. Sadly Edvald is tarnished by the company he keeps and the performances he puts in in what's clearly not a clean peleton.

So sorry I won't suspend my disbelief for him or any other cyclist. Do you want to be believed as clean as a cyclist? Then do all you can to prove it. Then we can talk.

So if you want to use your strawman argument "Sky is clean because Edvald is clean." Please prove the Edvald beeing clean first. The facts are certainly heavily stacked against it.

For the life of me I can't understand why you bother following cycling as a sport if you assume that every rider in the peloton is juiced. So you won't suspend disbelief for him or ANY OTHER CYCLIST????
I suppose haters will hate, regardless.....
I've got nothing to say to you other than "I'm sorry for your predicament".

 

[hrotha]

For the life of me I can't understand why you bother following cycling as a sport if you assume that every rider in the peloton is juiced. So you won't suspend disbelief for him or ANY OTHER CYCLIST????
I suppose haters will hate, regardless.....
I've got nothing to say to you other than "I'm sorry for your predicament".

Why? People who have accepted the role of doping and are still able to watch are at peace. People who need to fool themselves into believing in fairies are the ones that are in a predicament, as their world might crumble at any time.

 

[Pentacycle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ulViOm2PqR8#t=472s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FQqAfOzoIp4#t=3s

Yep, what a change in technique

Same 'technique' only no parkeggio in Spain.

Great commentary in Angliru clip.

Compare the upper body motion on Pena and San Luca. In 2009 Froome didn't properly use his pedaling motion, and his upper body moves all the time. His wiggling when he stands on the pedals is also way worse.

2011 is much better. You can see that the effort primarily comes from the all the leg muscles, and from the lower back and stomach, instead of his arms(jerking his handlebar) and almost exclusively using the pushing motion of the legs. He still looks clumsy, but at least he looks much more smooth and relaxed on a bike. Especially when he's required to go deep, like at the end of a mountain stage, or in a TT, the difference in two years is huge.

This is my view on why Froome improved, but what still bugs me is how he could deliver such great test results at the WCC while having such bad technique. Or did they just record VO2max?

 

[Miburo]

Why? People who have accepted the role of doping and are still able to watch are at peace. People who need to fool themselves into believing in fairies are the ones that are in a predicament, as their world might crumble at any time.

I think many don't care anymore expect if it's really obvious and makes the races boring, like sky of course.

If we had for example a battle between AS and AC i don't think many would complain about them possibly doping. Make it exciting and people won't mind that much but don't make it boring. Best example

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Yes, obvious like Contador was before he was suspended on account of a beef steak. By the way, i never like Vino i don't know why. just saying.

 

[Ferminal]

I liked him until he tested positive.

 

[Lanark]

I think many don't care anymore expect if it's really obvious and makes the races boring, like sky of course.

If we had for example a battle between AS and AC i don't think many would complain about them possibly doping. Make it exciting and people won't mind that much but don't make it boring. Best example

I don't think so. People mostly complain about Sky because they win so much, not because they are much more suspect than the rest of the big cyclists. Aside from that, they generate a lot of discussion because a lot of British fans started watching cycling with the rise of Sky, and spend a lot of time and energy defending them.

If Contador and Schleck were winning I wouldn't be any happier from a perspective of a clean sport, they cheat just as much as Sky does. I would still care about a clean sport if the guys dominating are exciting. Besides, Froome isn't even really that bad, he is a lot more exciting to watch than Wiggins, yet he generates a lot more discussion.

 

[Miburo]

I liked him until he tested positive.

You thought he didn't dope before? Wasn't it already obvious?

I remember a lot of fuss considering astana doping just before tour '07

I don't think so. People mostly complain about Sky because they win so much, not because they are much more suspect than the rest of the big cyclists. Aside from that, they generate a lot of discussion because a lot of British fans started watching cycling with the rise of Sky, and spend a lot of time and energy defending them.

If Contador and Schleck were winning I wouldn't be any happier from a perspective of a clean sport, they cheat just as much as Sky does. I would still care about a clean sport if the guys dominating are exciting. Besides, Froome isn't even really that bad, he is a lot more exciting to watch than Wiggins, yet he generates a lot more discussion.

That was my point, people are complaining cause sky is winning everything making boring and most of the time on the same way with the sky train.

And i don't think many were complaining in '10 when contador and schleck were destroying the field in the tour while they were both already suspect then.

 

[Lanark]

IIRC, rumors about Vinokourov started at the Dauphiné 2007. Talk about the 'men in black' who where trying do dodge the testers during training rides, and his relation with Ferrari came to light. For a cycling fan that only watched races and read newspapers, there probably wasn't that much reason to suspect him. And even among the hardcore fans who debate endlessly on cycling forums, there was still quite some naivety in 2007 about the scale of the doping problem.

 

[Ferminal]

I was only July fan back then, Vino was my favourite. For me that was "the" moment.

 

[Miburo]

IIRC, rumors about Vinokourov started at the Dauphiné 2007. Talk about the 'men in black' who where trying do dodge the testers during training rides, and his relation with Ferrari came to light. For a cycling fan that only watched races and read newspapers, there probably wasn't that much reason to suspect him. And even among the hardcore fans who debate endlessly on cycling forums, there was still quite some naivety in 2007 about the scale of the doping problem.

What about liberti seguros? Half the team was called to dope (tour'06) but not their team leader?

Granted 7 years ago the mentality was clearly different. Now it's just "Yea i called it..."

 

[Ninouka]

I think many don't care anymore expect if it's really obvious and makes the races boring, like sky of course.

If we had for example a battle between AS and AC i don't think many would complain about them possibly doping. Make it exciting and people won't mind that much but don't make it boring. Best example

Not many would mind?

Well that depends on whether you are morally and ethically bankrupt - and continually cheer on known cheats.

 

[roundabout]

I think many don't care anymore expect if it's really obvious and makes the races boring, like sky of course.

If we had for example a battle between AS and AC i don't think many would complain about them possibly doping. Make it exciting and people won't mind that much but don't make it boring. Best example

Uh, no.

Vuelta 06 was actually quite boring. Not even a bad blood bag could stop that ****er and his gang of robots.