Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[mudbone]

This post should not get lost in the shuffle. It's one of the things I've been meaning to look into myself. The quoted parts (that don't appear here) deserve special scrutiny.

Good post.

thanks! would be interested in thoughts (the e-arguments not so much )

 

[The Hitch]

Look, I want to believe Froome. He seems like a likable enough guy...but his dominance and climbing times cannot be ignored with the history we have of rides made by doped riders on the same mountains. If you watch his ride, look at his time, and say to yourself "nothing suspicious there, I believe him when he says he's doing it clean," I have to question how you can mentally surmount that hurdle.

Even Lemond said he hated to be questioned when he "wanted" to believe...he didn't say Froome is clean, and his tell is clearly visible. I don't mind someone being clearly better than everyone else because that is how things in sports work many times. But when they are clearly better AND the measure of that puts them in the ranks of riders who were doped to the gills...AND the rider in question never showed that kind of ability until a very short time ago...well, like I said, I'd like to believe in the guy, but I can't.

and also one should add that froomes been on his year long peak. Doped to the gills Lance could only post those times after spending the year slowly building up his body for those 3 weeks.

Froomes putting down these performances at will in any race he goes to. He's won more races this year than some people have race days. No peak, no exhaustion, just a base mode on par with dopers at their best.

ok.

 

[hiero2]

Look, I want to believe Froome. He seems like a likable enough guy...but his dominance and climbing times cannot be ignored with the history we have of rides made by doped riders on the same mountains. If you watch his ride, look at his time, and say to yourself "nothing suspicious there, I believe him when he says he's doing it clean," I have to question how you can mentally surmount that hurdle.

Even Lemond said he hated to be questioned when he "wanted" to believe...he didn't say Froome is clean, and his tell is clearly visible. I don't mind someone being clearly better than everyone else because that is how things in sports work many times. But when they are clearly better AND the measure of that puts them in the ranks of riders who were doped to the gills...AND the rider in question never showed that kind of ability until a very short time ago...well, like I said, I'd like to believe in the guy, but I can't.

Well said, chewie. I'm in complete agreement, and this, imo, states the case well.

 

[go crazy]

Just read the quote from Froome after the race: "I really didn't see myself winning this stage today. I thought I'd have to surrender to Quintana in the final." WHAT? Is he serious? I could see, sitting on my sofa a world away watching on TV that Froome was so much stronger than Quintana, and yet he's trying to convince (who, exactly?) that he thought he may lose??? Dude, you're not even good at lying anymore!

EDIT: Well, I don't know...the answer the other day when he said "440W for a whole stage is not likely" was an all-timer.

 

[luckyboy]

Think for yourself. Just look at the flags. There was a tailwind.

Well this is some prize bull****. Way to select one part of the course that happens to face the same direction as the wind.
Just watched this and Phil Liggett says "they're picking up for a moment a tailwind. They've changed direction"

Here are Nairo and Froome at various points on Ventoux. Wind direction is shown by the flags, the points they are at are taken from the km sign and their position on Google Maps (finishing point is the same so km out is also the same).
Also included one of Contador + Nieve where they're riding into a headwind - worked out their position by looking at the gap to the leaders, the landscape behind them, and the fact they turn right straight after.

Shots taken 5.7km out, 5.4km out, 3.7km out, 3.9km for chasers, 2km out, 1.2km out...

Click on the photo for full-size



Therefore, this is the general direction the wind was blowing on Ventoux.. Mostly crosswind, sometimes headwind, sometimes tailwind as is always the case on a windy climb with switchbacks.

Tailwind would've been on the forested lower slopes, so not especially effective.

 

[Granville57]

thanks! would be interested in thoughts (the e-arguments not so much )

What intrigues me most about this is that Froome stated recently that he occasionally needs to take the medication. He said it makes him feel bad for a few days then he's back at full strength. Now, by "recently" I mean it could've been last year. It was a Dutch video interview but I don't remember where the link is at the moment given the monumental clutter of posts etc.

When I'm not mobile, I'll dig it up (unless someone else has it handy). Not sure if he still needs the stuff to this day, but I'd be extremely curious about his current TUEs.

 

[Willy_Voet]

and also one should add that froomes been on his year long peak. Doped to the gills Lance could only post those times after spending the year slowly building up his body for those 3 weeks.

Froomes putting down these performances at will in any race he goes to. He's won more races this year than some people have race days. No peak, no exhaustion, just a base mode on par with dopers at their best.

ok.

You know, something just hit me as I thought about when I have seen something like this before. It wasn't that long ago a certain Philippe Gilbert was seemingly winning every other race he entered (2011). With 2012, it was like the switch flicked from ON to OFF, until the World Championships.

Are there any connections in doctors or other supporting personnel between Sky 2012 and Silence-Lotto 2011?

 

[vrusimov]

No, it was about 49, give or take a few seconds. That puts him the same as the times in 09 into a head wind. Today was a tailwind all the way up. So in reality he was perhaps a minute behind Contador's 09 performance given the conditions.

No it was not. Vetoo gives 47:11 at the 15km banner for Froome, with a final time over 15.65km of 48:35, 2 seconds off Armstrong.

 

[mewmewmew13]

and also one should add that froomes been on his year long peak. Doped to the gills Lance could only post those times after spending the year slowly building up his body for those 3 weeks.

Froomes putting down these performances at will in any race he goes to. He's won more races this year than some people have race days. No peak, no exhaustion, just a base mode on par with dopers at their best.

ok.

good post Hitchey
This for sure...

 

[Ripper]

Maybe, because the others are either too afraid or can't afford Ferrari's fees.

As for Saxobank, Riis is under investigation and from what I've heard Contador is receiving extra scrutiny via more testing.

Is this enough to open the doors to what Froome is doing utlizing traditional methods? Could be, but his physique doesn't call for the unrestrained power surge he seems to be able to call on whenever he feels like it.

I personally am at a loss. It could be a new combination of steroids and a new, as-of-yet unknown substance that does not show up in testing.

His weight loss and power increase are way too suspicious for this to be a natural performance imo.

Froome's BP is a bloody mess (excuse the pun).

I mean, RBC eating parasite, meds to kill it, altitude training. This guy could re-up his own blood monthly and it would be hard to tell

 

[Ripper]

Froome was more than 2 minutes faster than predicted by pvam and 10 seconds faster than dpvam at the end of a 240 km stage ridden faster than the fastest predicted avg speed.

There's no set-in-stone, magical limit (6 W/kg) that can be applied to any performance. Why is it so f-in hard for people to put an estimated W/kg in context? You see this in the replies to vetooo's estimates. 6.1 for 20 minutes at low altitude? "Incredible!" 5.9 for 50 minutes on the Ventoux? "Below 6, not suspicious at all!"

Unbelievable!

Agreed.

Folks either don't or don't want to understand. 5.9 for 50 with the altitude of Ventoux at the end of a long stage at the end of week 2. He was right up there with pharmstrong's time, need we really say much more?

 

[mewmewmew13]

he looks strikingly unhealthy...like his upper body resembles an 80 year old man and his face has been shockingly pale ....somethings not right.

 

[vrusimov]

Side to tail. Scroll back a few pages and see the other picture.

At least it wasn't a headwind like in 09 anyway. Would have slowed him down a lot.

With LeMond now backing Froome I think this debate is effectively over.

Chapeau to Froome for a spectacular performance.

The same Lemond who had his arms so lovingly around Armstrong at the beginning? You haven't done your homework my friend. Not even close!

 

[BroDeal]

What intrigues me most about this is that Froome stated recently that he occasionally needs to take the medication. He said it makes him feel bad for a few days then he's back at full strength. Now, by "recently" I mean it could've been last year. It was a Dutch video interview but I don't remember where the link is at the moment given the monumental clutter of posts etc.

When I'm not mobile, I'll dig it up (unless someone else has it handy). Not sure if he still needs the stuff to this day, but I'd be extremely curious about his current TUEs.

Froome was treated for badzilla in January of this year, 2013. Funny how last year when he was treated, it took him out of action for months. This year he was back to his unending peak in Feb.

 

[vrusimov]

Agreed.

Folks either don't or don't want to understand. 5.9 for 50 with the altitude of Ventoux at the end of a long stage at the end of week 2. He was right up there with pharmstrong's time, need we really say much more?

And a pace over 200 km of about 47 kph at the base of Ventoux. They were about 5 hours in before the fireworks started.

 

[mudbone]

What intrigues me most about this is that Froome stated recently that he occasionally needs to take the medication. He said it makes him feel bad for a few days then he's back at full strength. Now, by "recently" I mean it could've been last year. It was a Dutch video interview but I don't remember where the link is at the moment given the monumental clutter of posts etc.

When I'm not mobile, I'll dig it up (unless someone else has it handy). Not sure if he still needs the stuff to this day, but I'd be extremely curious about his current TUEs.

there's various stuff about the bilharzia (for eg: Froome saying he suffered from it again last year), but, as i said, i haven't seen anything about the link between Biltricide and Corticosteroids.

From Drugs.com...

The inflammatory reaction produced by antigenic substances released from dying cysts frequently involves increased intracranial pressure, seizures, severe headaches, nausea, and vomiting. In areas where Taenia solium is endemic, these reactions may occur as the result of undiagnosed cysticercosis in patients being treated for other parasitic infections.
Corticosteroids are helpful in controlling this reaction, and the dosage needs to be tailored to the patient's individual needs. Corticosteroids may need to be continued past praziquantel (the active ingredient contained in Biltricide) therapy, as the duration of the reaction differs among patients. Delayed reactions have been reported.

 

[mudbone]

actually, having searched some different terms, i see the link was discussed in this thread last month

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Just wanted to repeat that I'd like to believe, but I'm having a real hard time doing so when rides like today remind me of the days and speeds of LA, Pantani, Riis, etc.

It's the creed of the Ronin. Whenever there's any doubt...

 

[Ripper]

Today Richard Julian Porte finished 15th.

Great, you can figure out middle names

HFYP

 

[Granville57]

there's various stuff about the bilharzia (for eg: Froome saying he suffered from it again last year), but, as i said, i haven't seen anything about the link between Biltricide and Corticosteroids.

From Drugs.com...

Hmmm. Interesting stuff. I know that Froome supposedly had some sort of relapse with the parasitic condition, but all the links I can find describe the treatment using Biltricide as usually a one-day event. In the interview I watched, Froome never specified the medication that he needed to take. "Still taking" was the way I believed he described it.

OT: There are too many different topics being passed around in this thread.

OT+ @John Swanson: Look upthread. Mods already reprimanded Coggan and asked others to stop quoting his annoyance.

 

[Granville57]

Just wanted to repeat that I'd like to believe, but I'm having a real hard time doing so when rides like today remind me of the days and speeds of LA, Pantani, Riis, etc.

It's the creed of the Ronin. Whenever there's any doubt...

Damn! You know a topic is scintillating when it draws Alpe back into the dungeon.


Post more, please.

 

[Ripper]

Kreuziger worked with Ferrari and Schleck worked with Riis. Was Livingstone mentioned by USADA? Really they should all make the list.

However, I don't think Froome is doping, because what would he be taking that Contador and Valverde wouldn't know about?

The big story of the tour is really Contador's lack of performance. In 09 he soft peddled to victory on the Vontoux into a furious headwind.

Well, I see you've been banned and I can see why. Add to the known doper list, making Transfroomation even less believable, but then announce you think he is clean.

Happy holidays

 

[Spider1964]

Froome Dawg pictured at the 2008 Herald Sun Tour in Oz.

Def a different physique.

 

[Granville57]

At the risk of running this circular discussion into the ground, here's the video interview I was referring to:

Inner Ring just posted up NOS interview with Froome. Dutch to begin with but interview in English. Inner Ring noted the Bilharzia reference towards the end and Froome's explanation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bKuqFBrE9o

The bit about bilharzia begins at 11:00.

 

[Ferminal]

240km stage ridden on the flat at 45kmh for the 220km. 2009 was 80km shorter and ridden something like 5kmh slower. Dauphine time trials are so so beyond this that no one should be comparing the two.

The tailwind/headwind we have no idea what it was and how strong unless one of us was there with anemometers at selected points on the road (and that of course applies to previous times as well). It is an unknown and could explain abnormal results. Looking at the rest of the field they were reasonable, but working together a bit too. However, Froome's performance is very consistent with his effort last week, this says that he wasn't taking it "easy" but also that any exogenous unknowns were only the difference to the extent that this was a week later i.e. they are probably insignificant.