Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Dear Wiggo]

You are a murderer.
I say that, it is enought or I must put something more?
So, proof you are not a murderer or you will go to prison...

Whilst I do not for a moment believe your "accent", your analogy is broken.

The truer analogy is thus:

The accused is standing next to a dead body. (The accused rocketed up a mountain as fast as the most effective doper in the history of the sport).
The dead body is still warm. (It happened just this week).
The accused looks somewhat disheveled. (The accused couldn't do anything of the sort previously).
The dead person is known to the accused, and owed them money. (Big bucks are coming the accused's way thanks to rocketing up mountains).

Does it seem so ridiculous now to suggest that the accused is a murderer (doper)?

Means, motive, opportunity. Police are arresting you, "under suspicion", no question. That's all the clinic is doing.

 

[luckyboy]

jesus christ people are still debating the wind on Ventoux? What is wrong with you?

 

[richwallone]

OK, let's change the topic: I heard from Kimmage on his podcast that Froome was pushing 56x11 during the TT Now that blows my mind!!! With those puny legs Incredible!!!

 

[Raiko200]

I will say this. I read Taxus4a's long post on his blog and he did do a very good job detailing Froome's career to this point. A rational person could read it and believe Froome is clean. It's a much better approach to persuasion then the childish insults and attacks on intelligence that are most often thrown around in this thread.

Apparently there are only two types of people:

Those that know Froome dopes are: geniuses, intellectuals, intuitive, rational, superior

Those who think Froome is clean are: blind, stupid, morons, intellectual dwarfs, naive, bots

Is it really that clear cut?

I have admit that Froome's performance is suspicious to the naked eye. But, I'm not going to jump into a herd of frenetic sheep feeding in a frenzy on whatever piece of contradictory data they can find. Now we have posters clamoring for the details of Bilharzia - preferably only the pseudo facts that will add to the suspicion. The apparent professional stating the Bilharzia facts can't even spell the disease's name properly or even knows the origin of the name. Is that not suspicious as well?

Maybe Froome is doping but it's pretty laughable the judgmental frenzy that has manifested. At least Taxus4a lays out a rational argument which is far more than most of the rest of us do here. At least give the guy some respect for that. We should at least stick together to some extent because pretty much 99% percent of the public see's road cyclists as both comical and a nuisance and probably wonder why anyone even cares whether the sport dies or not.

So, anyway, thanks for your effort in writing that post Taxus4a. I'm not yet convinced Froome is clean but I respect your effort as well as the effort of those on the other side who are able to debate the subject with some level of maturity.

Frenzy on!

 

[The Hitch]

One doesn't have to be a genius, intellectual or intuitive to know that Froome is doping.

Though its pretty clear that you are right on the mark with the adjectives you offer for those who think Froome is clean.

If you want to make an appeal to "mature" "rational" argument and this utopianistic coming together, though, offering Taxes4all as the inspiration seems a bit counterproductive.

 

[JRanton]

I hate to be pedantic, but these times are all taken from the bottom of the climb, correct? Anybody who watched the climb on Sunday knows the pace was not on at the bottom of the climb, because Cadel was still in the lead group after five kilometres. Things only got interesting once Quintana attacked.

I would love to know what Froome did for the last ten kilometres of Ventoux, because it must have been fast.

Am I missing something here? Surely if the pace was not high at the bottom of the climb (which it wasn't) that means the riders had more left in the tank and could therefore go faster on the rest of the climb than they otherwise would have been able to if the pace had been higher at the bottom?

 

[go crazy]

I will say this. I read Taxus4a's long post on his blog and he did do a very good job detailing Froome's career to this point. A rational person could read it and believe Froome is clean. It's a much better approach to persuasion then the childish insults and attacks on intelligence that are most often thrown around in this thread.

Apparently there are only two types of people:

Those that know Froome dopes are: geniuses, intellectuals, intuitive, rational, superior

Those who think Froome is clean are: blind, stupid, morons, intellectual dwarfs, naive, bots

Is it really that clear cut?

I have admit that Froome's performance is suspicious to the naked eye. But, I'm not going to jump into a herd of frenetic sheep feeding in a frenzy on whatever piece of contradictory data they can find. Now we have posters clamoring for the details of Bilharzia - preferably only the pseudo facts that will add to the suspicion. The apparent professional stating the Bilharzia facts can't even spell the disease's name properly or even knows the origin of the name. Is that not suspicious as well?

Maybe Froome is doping but it's pretty laughable the judgmental frenzy that has manifested. At least Taxus4a lays out a rational argument which is far more than most of the rest of us do here. At least give the guy some respect for that. We should at least stick together to some extent because pretty much 99% percent of the public see's road cyclists as both comical and a nuisance and probably wonder why anyone even cares whether the sport dies or not.

So, anyway, thanks for your effort in writing that post Taxus4a. I'm not yet convinced Froome is clean but I respect your effort as well as the effort of those on the other side who are able to debate the subject with some level of maturity.

Frenzy on!

You had a few adjectives right:

Froome doper: intuitive, rational.

Froome clean: blind, naive, bots

Is it really that clear cut?

HELL YES IT IS! Jesus why is this still an argument? I'll put it this way. There is NOTHING Froome does that suggests he's CLEAN.

 

[alitogata]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. Do you STILL speculate on what is more than obvious??!
What we all saw isn't enough???

Froome climbed Mont Ventoux faster than Lance Armstrong who confessed (himself) that when he climbed it that fast, was doped.
Froome climbed Mont Ventoux with the fastest cadence ever in the last kms of a 240+ km stage. Is it acceptable for any active cyclist, ( no matter if s/he is amateur or professional- I'm talking about the experience) to believe that something like this is possible?
Ok.. Perhaps Froome is indeed a talented and strong athlete, but has no previous history of doing such achievements, and nobody else has because Froome climbed this difficult stage faster than anyone before, (clean or dirty), faster than any human being ever done it before.

And I personally can't forget, that Tom Simpson lost his life trying to climb this mountain..But Froome finished it and then immediately afterwards gave a bunch of interviews..just like this.. like nothing happened..

Pfffff....
I'm getting more and more angry as days pass because no one is saying officially that this performance is not normal and should not be accepted even if this rider hasn't been caught yet. His results show the opposite. I believe what my eyes see, and my experience as a cyclist tells me that the guy is soooo doped that makes Armstrong's doping look.... holly!!!

And no... my problem isnt't if he wins or if there will be someone else to put him down.. My problem is that Froome and his team, and other guys like them from other teams, think that we ( the audiences ) are naive and idiots, and that they can insult our intelligence indefinitely.

I don't know what kind of drug Froome is taking and I really don't care. If it was in my hands, I would have ban him for life from races and I would have deleted him from general classification, just because his performance was faster than the fastest performances of already caught as doped, athletes. I don't think that we need any other evidences.

 

[JRanton]

One doesn't have to be a genius, intellectual or intuitive to know that Froome is doping.

Though its pretty clear that you are right on the mark with the adjectives you offer for those who think Froome is clean.

If you want to make an appeal to "mature" "rational" argument and this utopianistic coming together, though, offering Taxes4all as the inspiration seems a bit counterproductive.

Do you believe Sky are involved and have knowledge of Froome's doping, Hitch?

I just find it hard to believe that after the Armstrong bomb exploded last October and having already won the Tour with Wiggins (mission accomplished for Team Sky in a way) that they'd have the bare faced cheek to carry on this year with a rider performing as dominantly as pretty much anything we've ever seen before in the sport's history.

I mean Basso said they had big balls last year. To do it this year and in the way they're doing it is on a completely different scale.

 

[patswana]

Patswana not sure I understand you fully. Are you saying that the treatment is 1-3 doses only? If so, what do you mean by 'long-term bilharzia? Do you mean that only the scarring needs long-term treatment? if so, does scarring or long-term bilharzia affect red blood cells? Thanks

There is an early form of bilharzia, occurring about one to two months after exposure. This is called Katayama Fever, or acute schistosomiasis. With this, you'd be quite sick for a few weeks and would be very unlikely to be on the bike. About half people get this.

Beyond this acute (i.e. early) phase, it becomes chronic (i.e. long term). If he got S. mansoni, in the liver, the symptoms don't usually begin for years, when cirrhosis starts to develop. Cirrhosis can certainly cause anaemia but there is no way you'd be riding in the Pro Tour with cirrhosis. If he got S. haematobium, that is usually asymptomatic for years (apart from maybe a little blood in his urine or semen).

 

[patswana]

So unless Froome is continuously going back to Kenya and getting re-infected, his story of getting multiple treatments for bilharzia doesn't make much sense, correct?

That is correct.

 

[patswana]

But, I'm not going to jump into a herd of frenetic sheep feeding in a frenzy on whatever piece of contradictory data they can find. Now we have posters clamoring for the details of Bilharzia - preferably only the pseudo facts that will add to the suspicion. The apparent professional stating the Bilharzia facts can't even spell the disease's name properly or even knows the origin of the name. Is that not suspicious as well?

As stated earlier, bilharzia is a term only really used in Africa. I only ever use the term schistosomiasis. Apologies if my spelling of a word I never use causes you problems. However, I also did a direct copy and paste from UpToDate (http://www.uptodate.com) - the best source of info used by doctors. You don't have to believe me but not believing this source would be stretching credibility.

If you can't access UpToDate, try the American CDCs site: http://www.cdc.gov/parasites/schistosomiasis/treatment.html
This says: Safe and effective medication is available for treatment of both urinary and intestinal schistosomiasis. Praziquantel, a prescription medication, is taken for 1-2 days to treat infections caused by all Schistosoma species.

 

[Hugh Januss]

herd of frenetic sheep feeding in a frenzy on whatever piece of contradictory data they can find

That is awesome. Only a genius could come up with alteration this good.
Or a turrets sufferer.

 

[timbo25]

why would Froome be clean? what has happened in the cycling world?
in 1998 is was way worse with people in jail, next TDF in 1999 was the fastest and the most doped up.

 

[victorschipolrijk]

As stated earlier, bilharzia is a term only really used in Africa. I only ever use the term schistosomiasis. Apologies if my spelling of a word I never use causes you problems. However, I also did a direct copy and paste from UpToDate (http://www.uptodate.com) - the best source of info used by doctors. You don't have to believe me but not believing this source would be stretching credibility.

If you can't access UpToDate, try the American CDCs site: http://www.cdc.gov/parasites/schistosomiasis/treatment.html
This says: Safe and effective medication is available for treatment of both urinary and intestinal schistosomiasis. Praziquantel, a prescription medication, is taken for 1-2 days to treat infections caused by all Schistosoma species.

I apologize for being rude.

Sorry

 

[Alphabet]

For simplicity's sake, we should probably just call it bilharzia instead of schisto.... ****sto... I give up.

 

[beowulf]

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily

#TDF, Mont Ventoux, last 6.15 km, 8.00 %, 492 m 2002 | Lance Armstrong: 17 min 53 sec 2013 | Chtris Froome: 17 min 41 sec

Thanks for that. Imagine what he would have done if he had been paced from the bottom by his Sky teammates like on AX 3 Domaines.

 

[sittingbison]

For simplicity's sake, we should probably just call it bilharzia instead of schisto.... ****sto... I give up.

For simplicity's sake, we should probably just call it....badzilla

Now for the warning:
Gentle(wo)men, the next person to mention wind direction or allude to the ITT times up Mont Venteux will enjoy a holiday. This has already been discussed as nauseum.

cheers
bison

 

[sugarman]

"Brailsford said team doctors continue to monitor Froome for bilharzia because it’s difficult to completely eradicate.

“It’s not something that just disappears. It’s a parasite. It lays eggs. They might be dormant, then the eggs hatch, then they lay more eggs,” Brailsford said. “You have to stay on top of it, be vigilant, that’s why he keeps having treatments so it’s completely eradicated over time.”

Is there any truth at all in this statement from DB?
My understanding is that the eggs are released, i.e. in urine/feces, and 'hatch' on exposure to water, then need a snail host to develop before they can infect a human. Any trapped eggs just trigger an immune inflammatory response, but dont 'hatch'.

In short, the eggs dont just hatch and develop in your body...
Im no expert on this though, so is this correct Patswana?

Australian Therapeutic Guidelines also suggest 1-3 doses over 1 day (i.e. one treatment) would eradicate an infection

Also his story about team doctors missing it and asking for a 'full check' during a passport test is hilarious!

 

[JustinReynolds]

I don't know what kind of drug Froome is taking and I really don't care. If it was in my hands, I would have ban him for life from races and I would have deleted him from general classification, just because his performance was faster than the fastest performances of already caught as doped, athletes. I don't think that we need any other evidences.

What utter nonsense - what sane logic is there for this opinion?

 

[patswana]

Is there any truth at all in this statement from DB?
My understanding is that the eggs are released, i.e. in urine/feces, and 'hatch' on exposure to water, then need a snail host to develop before they can infect a human. Any trapped eggs just trigger an immune inflammatory response, but dont 'hatch'.

In short, the eggs dont just hatch and develop in your body...
Im no expert on this though, so is this correct Patswana?

Australian Therapeutic Guidelines also suggest 1-3 doses over 1 day (i.e. one treatment) would eradicate an infection

Also his story about team doctors missing it and asking for a 'full check' during a passport test is hilarious!

Exactly right.

Also - with the 'full check' that found it 'straight away', the serology test usually takes more than a week to come back in any of the places I have worked.

 

[kaffenback]

Well if he drops everyone on D'huez it will be really rubbing everyone's face in it and some journos out there will take up the challenge to be the next Walsh and get all the kudos that Walsh appears to be living off and not realising he is losing it fast with his SKy loves fest on twitter.

I would hold fire on Walsh for now. Yes, I have also been a little concerned with the general feel from him lately and his lack of suspicion but then again, he has been allowed to spend a lot of time with Sky, which is now almost up.
He will then hopefully share his findings but until then, he can't/wouldn't really compromise or upset anybody just before or during a massive race.
IF there is something negative to come out I have faith that he will be on the right side of the fence. Everything we have seen from him to this point would suggest that. Even Kimmage sounded a bit worried yesterday but its a delicate situation. Lets just wait until he ends his placement.

However, the odd soundbites he has come out with are true, however disappointing they may seem to us... that unless there is some very good evidence then he/we cannot start throwing accusations around.
Yes, that's exactly what we do but there is a difference. We have a lot more freedom and no reputation as such to lose. Walsh, after years of mistrust is now highly respected for his determination and belief in the truth which was based on documentary evidence from trusted sources. He stood by those sources, believed in them and did not stop until the truth finally came out.
I believe that now, he is in position to be approached by any number of people in the cycling world who may have similar information. This will not happen overnight. It could be months or years before there is something of substance to work with.

In the meantime, he could however ask valid questions and I am sure some will be asked within whatever articles/book he writes about his time with Sky.

Yes, his links to News International are a niggling concern but I have to believe in Walsh. Because if the good and the brave are bought, we are truly doomed

 

[kaffenback]

Whilst I do not for a moment believe your "accent", your analogy is broken.

The truer analogy is thus:

The accused is standing next to a dead body. (The accused rocketed up a mountain as fast as the most effective doper in the history of the sport).
The dead body is still warm. (It happened just this week).
The accused looks somewhat disheveled. (The accused couldn't do anything of the sort previously).
The dead person is known to the accused, and owed them money. (Big bucks are coming the accused's way thanks to rocketing up mountains).

Does it seem so ridiculous now to suggest that the accused is a murderer (doper)?

Means, motive, opportunity. Police are arresting you, "under suspicion", no question. That's all the clinic is doing.

blo~dy well said.

 

[Galic Ho]

I'm under no illusions as to what "Team GB" might be up to, but having watched the shamples that was Great Britain in the 1996 Olympics and the routine whippings our guys got off the Eastern bloc in the 70s and 80s, I'd much sooner have a lot of potentially dodgy golden gongs than a bunch of clean losers.

I make no apologies for this view. (Though I do have real issues with competitors being doped without their knowledge. Not sure how common this is.)

Disgusting attitude that goes against the very essence of sport.

Competing is a privilege not a right. Having a go is what is important. Your attitude is a straight out reflection of everything that is wrong with GB ATM.

Your golden gongs won't last and they will forever be tarnished.

 

[Bobito]

I'm under no illusions as to what "Team GB" might be up to, but having watched the shamples that was Great Britain in the 1996 Olympics and the routine whippings our guys got off the Eastern bloc in the 70s and 80s, I'd much sooner have a lot of potentially dodgy golden gongs than a bunch of clean losers.

I make no apologies for this view. (Though I do have real issues with competitors being doped without their knowledge. Not sure how common this is.)

This is an instructive post and I commend the honesty as much as I dislike the attitude.

This is exactly why there is commercial difficulty with the sale of sports like Football and American Football and Basketball in which doping is far more extensive than anything that goes on in cycling. Fans want to see a very buff Lebron James, and more so if they have the misfortune to live in Cleveland.