Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

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Oct 16, 2010
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I think Riis and (to a lesser extent) Lance challenge Froome for most laughable transformation ever.
In both cases it was all about doping (and having the UCI on your side). Not far-fetched that the same goes for Froome/Wiggins et al.
 
Parker said:
Bilharzia in 2010. It's been fairly well documented.

You do realize all of froomes accounts on bilharzia have him being diagnosed after this graph is made? And he explicitly denied being I'll several months after it was made. So the idea that brailsford placed him low because he was I'll is another fail from you. Keep trying, you might hit on something at some point.
 
roundabout said:
How exactly does a pro on a low 6 figure contract (at a reasonable guess) get an edge in doping?

Unless of course he is some evil doctor's personal project.
Unsafe experimental doping he got from Cound? :p

He was probably on more than just micro-dosing EPO and T/HGH, but who knows what else he was on. Maybe BBs, maybe not. Maybe something else, but what?
 

stutue

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sniper said:
I think Riis and (to a lesser extent) Lance challenge Froome for most laughable transformation ever.
In both cases it was all about doping (and having the UCI on your side). Not far-fetched that the same goes for Froome/Wiggins et

Riis and Armstrong were from a time when there was no test for EPO. If Froome's transformation is comparable it cannot have been born out of the same conditions ie. Near unrestricted EPO.

The argument that Sky have the UCI in their pocket fell apart massively this year.

Still plausible is the argument that Sky had something new.
 
The Hitch said:
You do realize all of froomes accounts on bilharzia have him being diagnosed after this graph is made? And he explicitly denied being I'll several months after it was made. So the idea that brailsford placed him low because he was I'll is another fail from you. Keep trying, you might hit on something at some point.
Yes I do realise the dates. As I keep telling you the graph does not show potential or a subjective assessment of talent. It is an objective assessment of actual results - and nothing else. Results are effected by the presence of the illness, not the knowledge of it.

Had the graph been a representation of subjectively assessed ability by Sky management, as some erroneously claim, then whether the illness was know about would be relevant. But it wasn't, so it's not.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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roundabout said:
How exactly does a pro on a low 6 figure contract (at a reasonable guess) get an edge in doping?

Unless of course he is some evil doctor's personal project.
How expensive is a combi of EPO and steroids? can't be that expensive.
And better to invest your dough in something worthwhile than to be without a procontract next season.

perhaps being on Sky's payroll enabled him to dope old school and relatively cheap.
we can only guess what his BP values looked like in 2011. For all we know they were all over the place.
a certainty is that UCI wanted British success as much as Sky did.

While Netserk might be half joking, Cound definitely makes a very suspect figure.
But I do believe in some form of team support as well encouraging froome's transformation. No lunchboxes perhaps, but the appointment of Leinders and several other former dopers and enablers was no accident.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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What goes up, must come down...

I think he is done for it, and that this will be clear before,in,or (shortly) after the Vuelta....

Froome went very high up in a relatively short time span...

A closer look at team SKY the last few years raises the issue of lack in consistency....... (Wiggins,Porte etc.)

This inconsistency seems to apply to more than just power..

Wiggins - from Team leader and TDF-winner to mice-status in one year..
Froome - confident crown-prince takes over in 13' beating everyone.. Then a crash in Dauphine becomes benchmark of a insecure guy unable to ride his bike....
Porte - From one of the world's best climber's in 13' to ZERO in 14'

I do not know the exact circumstances or reasons for the above, but all the commotion with his TUE -the painful interview with PK.. Followed up by the wierd comments from Brailsford aiming for a french TDF-winner and calling Froome "one" of his best riders was for me a game-changer....

Also there's been a lot of questions about SKY's training methods and wether they are sustainable in the long term.... More sharp tounges has furthermore mentioned that Froome and his "better half" are too much a liability to the "image" of team sky with all the outbursts and inconsitent comments... Not to mention the rebirth of Contador and the cofeé trolling (mental battle)...

I think the pressure on Froome is more than he can bear, and Brailsford probably knows this... Not beeing backed up "fully" by Brailsford will leave Froome in the dust before we know it.......
 
Jul 21, 2012
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stutue said:
Riis and Armstrong were from a time when there was no test for EPO. If Froome's transformation is comparable it cannot have been born out of the same conditions ie. Near unrestricted EPO.

The argument that Sky have the UCI in their pocket fell apart massively this year.

Still plausible is the argument that Sky had something new.

Everything is more plausible than Froome being clean.
 
May 26, 2010
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I think this has a lot to do with ASO not wanting a rider winning a good few GTs then being found out and leaving the mess similar to Armstrong.
 
mrhender said:
What goes up, must come down...

I think he is done for it, and that this will be clear before,in,or (shortly) after the Vuelta....

Froome went very high up in a relatively short time span...

A closer look at team SKY the last few years raises the issue of lack in consistence....... (Wiggins,Porte etc.)

This inconsistence seems to apply to more than just power..

Wiggins - from Team leader and TDF-winner to mice-status in one year..
Froome - confident crown-prince takes over in 13' beating everyone.. Then a crash in Dauphine becomes benchmark of a insecure guy unable to ride his bike....
Porte - From one of the world's best climber's in 13' to ZERO in 14'

I do not know the exact circumstances or reasons for the above, but all the commotion with his TUE -the painful interview with PK.. Followed up by the wierd comments from Brailsford aiming for a french TDF-winner and calling Froome "one" of his best riders was for me a game-changer....

Also there's been a lot of questions about SKY's training methods and wether they are sustainable in the long term.... More sharp tounges has furthermore mentioned that Froome and his "better half" are too much a liability to the "image" of team sky with all the outbursts and inconsitent comments... Not to mention the rebirth of Contador and the cofeé trolling (mental battle)...

I think the pressure on Froome is more than he can bear, and Brailsford probably knows this... Not beeing backed up "fully" by Brailsford will leave Froome in the dust before we know it.......

Let's call it - people within cycling have heard rumours about sky's systematic cortisone abuse for the last two years -

and that's fine but you can't dope with cortisone indefinitely...your body breaks down after a maximum of 24months...
 

stutue

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Apr 22, 2014
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Yes, I've heard those rumours too but it doesn't account for Froome's 'transformation', otherwise a pre-EPO era drug is being attributed with EPO-style benefits which is just balls.

By the way, we can all look forward to French cyclists crumbling in a year or two as according to Bassoons cortisone abuse is rampant in French pro ranks.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Benotti69 said:
I think this has a lot to do with ASO not wanting a rider winning a good few GTs then being found out and leaving the mess similar to Armstrong.

Makes sense... I doubt we will see any rider "getting" more than two -max three consecutive TDF wins over the next decade... When winners fade away, less questions are asked in the broad public -Funny enough......
 
Digger said:
Let's call it - people within cycling have heard rumours about sky's systematic cortisone abuse for the last two years -

and that's fine but you can't dope with cortisone indefinitely...your body breaks down after a maximum of 24months...
That would seem to put Froome in the clear then. First good in late 2011, so the 24 months expires in 2013, but in 2014 he still manages to win Oman, Romandie and lead Dauphine with two stage wins before crashing.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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agree with stutue here.
cortisone abuse can only be a part of the story.
EPO seems likely, doesn't it. unless Froome has discovered some alternative.

the most telling part about Sky's cortisone abuse imo is that it is supported by UCI.
I think anomalies in the BP of Sky riders are/have been endorsed as well.

(i'm not forgetting JTL, of course. but as long as we don't know the details I won't count it as a Sky positive)
 
Jul 11, 2013
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sniper said:
agree with stutue here.
cortisone abuse can only be a part of the story.
EPO seems likely, doesn't it. unless Froome has discovered some alternative.

the most telling part about Sky's cortisone abuse imo is that it is supported by UCI.
I think anomalies in the BP of Sky riders are/have been endorsed as well.

(i'm not forgetting JTL, of course. but as long as we don't know the details I won't count it as a Sky positive)



Wag the dog.... A convenient sacrifice he was..... Poor fellow...
 
Of course it's not 'just' cortisone - no amount of that stuff makes you ride as fast as oxygen vector dopers.

But 2012 Sky were robots - something is way off this year. Whether they got a warning, I don't know...but it's a huge fall off.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
I think this has a lot to do with ASO not wanting a rider winning a good few GTs then being found out and leaving the mess similar to Armstrong.

it was funny when Dawg was talking about winning the next 8 tours.

Everything was going so well too, they even installed Cookson in office. I dont know what went wrong. But I guess not everyone inside the UCI is happy with their new overlords, hence the TUE leak.
 
May 26, 2009
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Parker, a question if I may.

If Brailsford/Sky rated Froome so highly why was he just a few months from being a free agent?

For me, if his teammate(Nordhaug, if I remember correctly) hadn't got sick prior to the Vuelta, Froome would have been riding for a different team in 2012.
 
Jul 11, 2013
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Digger said:
Of course it's not 'just' cortisone - no amount of that stuff makes you ride as fast as oxygen vector dopers.

But 2012 Sky were robots - something is way off this year. Whether they got a warning, I don't know...but it's a huge fall off.


I do not think doping does the trick alone, maybe one year,(SKY 2012)

On the long term other factors has their saying.... Brailsford has serious problems in the management of his team. Propably using too much time attempting to maintain the SKY "image" of cleans, and overestimating his abilities in general..... Now everything is falling apart, especially since his GT winners and contenders are not "naturally" built to the task... The advantage he may have had seems to be gone.... Now the more experinced ones aims to reclaim their position...
 
No one can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Froome is doping, granted. But what we can say with certainty is that literally overnight he experienced a dramatic, essentially unprecedented increase in weight/power. Despite Sky’s chicken-****, hypocritical refusal to publish his power values, we have enough data to make this claim. This is what has to be explained.

He didn’t just become a better climber or tactical GT rider overnight. He also became a much better TTer, consistently several % faster, which represents a huge increase in power. Even if he was able to lose several kgs without any loss in power, which is highly dubious, this would not improve his TTng that much. This improvement demands a large increase in raw power, I just don’t see any way around it. And this increase occurred at a time when by his own words he was losing weight, and at the very best, would hope to maintain power, or minimize loss of it.

So the argument that he came from a poor background in cycling, and his talent only became manifest after working in the Sky program, doesn’t work. Even if he had extensive work in a wind tunnel—and on the contrary, Froome has said he never spent any time that way—nothing Sky might have done to improve his bike handling skills would allow him to go from at best an upper middle of the pack TTer to one of the best in the world. OTOH, we have in recent years seen a number of climbing specialists suddenly make similar large jumps in TT performance—Heras, Basso, Contador, e.g.—and in every case we have good reason to attribute that to doping. We also saw LA go from a decent TTer to the very best in the same way.

The schisto argument also fails. Froome has never provided a shred of evidence that the disease impacted his performance; on the contrary, what evidence we have been able to piece together from his somewhat inconsistent stories indicates that he was basically the same rider before and immediately after the period during which he probably contracted the disease. We have also been told that the disease did not affect his blood values.

He says he was diagnosed and first treated in December of 2010, yet he still did not exhibit any major improvement in his riding in the following year, until the Vuelta. He claims that his first treatment, indeed several subsequent treatments, did not cure him of the disease, though several authorities on the disease have pointed out that this is virtually unheard of. Moreover, even if this really is the case, the timeline doesn’t back up a story of the disease inhibiting his performance. He had a second treatment shortly after the 2011 Vuelta, despite being at his maximum performance level in that race. He blamed a chest infection in early 2012 on the disease, yet he rode fine at the TDF that year. He also rode well at the Vuelta (taking into account the effect of the previous Tour), and all through the 2013 season up to and including the TDF, yet he claims he still wasn’t cured of the disease and had two more treatments during this period.

So we’re supposed to believe that Froome, virtually unique among individuals with the disease, was not cured until he had four treatments. Because of this, the symptoms were constantly returning, yet except for one period in early 2012 that was not critical to his schedule, they never came at a time when they affected any of his racing. This is in sharp contrast to pre-2011, when, the story goes, the disease was affecting his performance all the time, and without his even being aware of it.

So how could Froome achieve such a remarkable transformation through doping? If he was not blood doping at first, or only at a very low level, I think a stronger program could explain his TTng, just as it has other riders. I don't find this part of his transformation so difficult to understand.

I think his climbing is harder to explain. He's very tall for a rider, a body type not naturally suited to mountain goats. Weight loss drugs could be part of the answer. This would also explain his increasing fragility. Remember, even Walsh predicted that Froome’s days at the top were severely limited. But even so, I find his transformation as a climber remarkable, and the most difficult part of the story to explain, even assuming doping. He remains a puzzle to me.

Edit: Just had an inspiration (I think). If Froome's story is ever made into a movie, the actor I'd like to see play the Dawg is Jim Parsons, aka Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory.
 
BYOP88 said:
Parker, a question if I may.

If Brailsford/Sky rated Froome so highly why was he just a few months from being a free agent?

For me, if his teammate(Nordhaug, if I remember correctly) hadn't got sick prior to the Vuelta, Froome would have been riding for a different team in 2012.
Who knows how they rated him? Maybe they saw him as a raw talent who couldn't transfer the numbers into results and were losing patience. Maybe they were just trying to drive his contract renewal price down. Maybe they were too focused on Wiggins. Different people, different perspectives. I'm not going to take the one that suits me as the definitive truth.

Personally I'm not buying the idea that he wasn't going to get a contract renewal - he'd shown sporadic good form at Romandie and Suisse that year. (And a friend of mine who occasionally has contact with British Cycling was always telling me that Froome was going to be the next big thing)

But sport is full of managers making bad decisions with regard to signings. For example, Peter Sagan almost quit road racing when Lefevere didn't sign him to Quick Step.