Re: Re:
Riddle me this
Nairo Quintana COL | 39:23 | 2015
Quintana had the fastest time ever up Croix De Fer today as well. EPO, apparently it gives you wings.
Please dont put Fignon on that list, whatever about the others, Fignon doped, yes he claims not with EPO but with everything else of the time.[/quote]
Natural progression, race tactics, equipment differences, wind, better training, doping, can be any or all of those factors or more. I already asked and nobody seems interested in putting forward what a believable time would be.
According to many years of discussion on the subject, EPO was considered the game changer and far superior to anything Fignon might have been on in 1987. Fignon was not even in his top form in 87 so I am quite comfortable with him being there.
Riddle me this
Nairo Quintana COL | 39:23 | 2015
Quintana had the fastest time ever up Croix De Fer today as well. EPO, apparently it gives you wings.
Please dont put Fignon on that list, whatever about the others, Fignon doped, yes he claims not with EPO but with everything else of the time.[/quote]
Natural progression, race tactics, equipment differences, wind, better training, doping, can be any or all of those factors or more. I already asked and nobody seems interested in putting forward what a believable time would be.
According to many years of discussion on the subject, EPO was considered the game changer and far superior to anything Fignon might have been on in 1987. Fignon was not even in his top form in 87 so I am quite comfortable with him being there.
Re:
You can argue Fignon was a doper all you want and I won't disagree but that still doesn't discount the fact that EPO was the game changer yet there are riders from the pre EPO era who have ascent times as fast as so called blood doping era times. Therefore there is clearly other factors at play which makes a lot of comparison of climbing times moot as there are so many varying factors at play which doping is just one.
Benotti69 said:
You can argue Fignon was a doper all you want and I won't disagree but that still doesn't discount the fact that EPO was the game changer yet there are riders from the pre EPO era who have ascent times as fast as so called blood doping era times. Therefore there is clearly other factors at play which makes a lot of comparison of climbing times moot as there are so many varying factors at play which doping is just one.
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Re: Re:
None from the BP era? Aside from today?[/quote]
Need better data repositories for quicker analysis / querying.
armchairclimber said:
None from the BP era? Aside from today?[/quote]
Need better data repositories for quicker analysis / querying.
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Re: Re:
All these clean guys riding for dirty teams, dirty doctors, dirty soignuers, dirty DSs etc can beat EPO fueled times! Sure, that is why Tinkoff have a unicorn on their logo.[/quote]I will enlighten you.
AGAIN: We probably have to go back to 1991 to notice any non-dopers on the list of fastest times ever. That's 24 years ago. I repeat 24 years ago. Are you expecting that one of the better climbers anno 2015 will climb slower than that ?
In 1991 41:02 Jean-Francois Bernard 20.18 km/h. Now more than 2 decades later Quintana is what? 2.5 minute faster. Nothing strange with that.
Some people here a completey brainwashed and cant see things from 2 sides anymore.[/quote]
Thats a ~6% improvement. Thats huge.
The likes of the marathon and 100m WR have improved ~3% in that time due to doping.
Maybe you can enlighten us how so called clean riders with their methods aka 'marginal gains', which Sky lied about inventing, are beating EPO times."Jeff"":35wgf6p4][quote="Benotti69 said:
All these clean guys riding for dirty teams, dirty doctors, dirty soignuers, dirty DSs etc can beat EPO fueled times! Sure, that is why Tinkoff have a unicorn on their logo.[/quote]I will enlighten you.
AGAIN: We probably have to go back to 1991 to notice any non-dopers on the list of fastest times ever. That's 24 years ago. I repeat 24 years ago. Are you expecting that one of the better climbers anno 2015 will climb slower than that ?
In 1991 41:02 Jean-Francois Bernard 20.18 km/h. Now more than 2 decades later Quintana is what? 2.5 minute faster. Nothing strange with that.
Some people here a completey brainwashed and cant see things from 2 sides anymore.[/quote]
Thats a ~6% improvement. Thats huge.
The likes of the marathon and 100m WR have improved ~3% in that time due to doping.
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Re: Re:
The answer to your riddle is that you're cherry-picking times to suit your argument. No pre-1991 times in the top 50. The few top 100 times that are before 1994 are from the people most likely to have started the EPO early. Bugno, Chiappucci and Indurain all there with their 1991 times.
Apart from that, every single top 100 time, except for Quintana in 2013 and 2015 and Purito of 2013, is set between 1994 and 2008, which we know are the EPO years. Comparing mediocre EPO performances to good non-EPO performances is pointless. Look at the best dopers versus the best non-dopers. The difference up ADH is probably around 5 minutes, which is an Earth-shattering time gap.
pmcg76 said:
The answer to your riddle is that you're cherry-picking times to suit your argument. No pre-1991 times in the top 50. The few top 100 times that are before 1994 are from the people most likely to have started the EPO early. Bugno, Chiappucci and Indurain all there with their 1991 times.
Apart from that, every single top 100 time, except for Quintana in 2013 and 2015 and Purito of 2013, is set between 1994 and 2008, which we know are the EPO years. Comparing mediocre EPO performances to good non-EPO performances is pointless. Look at the best dopers versus the best non-dopers. The difference up ADH is probably around 5 minutes, which is an Earth-shattering time gap.
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As a cycling fan, Froome's most egregious sin was making the Tour one of the most boring ever. Worse than 2009, where the off-road drama was more interesting than the actual racing.
Bur Froome was aided by the ridiculous decision by Tinkov to have Contador go for the Giro win, and Nibali coming into the race in inespicably sub-par form. And to think Tinkov was entertaining the idea of Contador going to the Vuelta for the win if he also won the Tour.
The attacks by Froome's rivals were the weakest I've ever seen against a yellow jersey since I've been watching the Tour. At least Quintana had a go of it on L'Alpe D'huez, but it was too little too late. By that time Froome didn't have to chase him so in the end it was pointless. It was a bad, bad race from a fan's perspective. The Tour is running on reputation only, and has been for quite a long time, but's it's been a while sonce it's been this unbearably boring.
Froome is annoying on many fronts. His climbing style is absolutely atrocious. It's painful to watch his cadence and the manner in which he stares down at his handlebars and shakes his head like a praying mantis while he fumbles for the button to a tivsate the motor in his frame. But he doesn't deserve to be spat on and thrown urine on. The fans this year showed no class.
Maybe if the contenders were as doped as some of you claim it would have made for a better race.
Bur Froome was aided by the ridiculous decision by Tinkov to have Contador go for the Giro win, and Nibali coming into the race in inespicably sub-par form. And to think Tinkov was entertaining the idea of Contador going to the Vuelta for the win if he also won the Tour.
The attacks by Froome's rivals were the weakest I've ever seen against a yellow jersey since I've been watching the Tour. At least Quintana had a go of it on L'Alpe D'huez, but it was too little too late. By that time Froome didn't have to chase him so in the end it was pointless. It was a bad, bad race from a fan's perspective. The Tour is running on reputation only, and has been for quite a long time, but's it's been a while sonce it's been this unbearably boring.
Froome is annoying on many fronts. His climbing style is absolutely atrocious. It's painful to watch his cadence and the manner in which he stares down at his handlebars and shakes his head like a praying mantis while he fumbles for the button to a tivsate the motor in his frame. But he doesn't deserve to be spat on and thrown urine on. The fans this year showed no class.
Maybe if the contenders were as doped as some of you claim it would have made for a better race.
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samerics said:
1) Regarding wind. The interesting thing about Alpe d'Huez is that the switchbacks negate a lot of the effects of the wind, meaning climbing times are very comparable from year to year. One also has to account for the fact that the enormous crowds act as a shield for the riders.
2) Improvements in bikes, training and road surface would give at best an extremely marginal improvement to any time set after 2000 (when bike weight became limited to minimum 6,8kg), all other things equal. We're talking a handful of seconds at best.
3) No-one knows who has natural talent any more. Froome looked like he had very limited natural climbing talent before 2011. Now he's one of the top 2 in the world. Doping has completely erased the meaning of 'natural talent'.
I watch cycling because I love it. There's loads of genuine magic to be found in it behind all the doping at the pointy end of the race. This year, it's been things like watching Martin snag yellow by going off on his own or Peraud fighting to finish the stage even if he was borderline skinless, for example. As far as the GC contenders go, I'll just say I bet there's a reason why WWE is so popular. It might be mostly fake, but it's still entertaining.
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Why are people confluxing froome avec drugs. Disgraceful. Beetroot juice oxygen tents & what the hell are ketones?
Re: Re:
Attacks by rivals 'look weak' when you have four donkeys riding for you that pull back virtually all attacks by the entire peleton.
samerics said:
Attacks by rivals 'look weak' when you have four donkeys riding for you that pull back virtually all attacks by the entire peleton.
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Re: Re:
It's fascinating to me that you can on the one hand realize what a game-changer EPO was, and still think it's believable to see EPO times now, as if humans mutate in 5-20 years.
This sport has maximized most of the efficiencies in technology, with bike weight (artificial ceiling) and power transfer not changing much in that time. I don't think wheels are getting rounder, but I hear rumors.
There isn't any kind of real, scientific information about whether nutrition and training are significantly different or better than they were 5-20 years ago. Certainly one could expect a general raise in the efficacy of both over time, but one would also expect some peaks and valleys in performance from these factors as experiments go wrong.
If you look at the progression of performance before the advent of oxygen vector doping, it seems to be very slow, as in other sports. I would expect a percent or at best two in performance per decade, slowing as we edge nearer to the limits and the gains become smaller. I would expect some sports to regress over the course of a decade as true superstars come and go.
I would not expect gains of up to 15% over the previous champions to be eradicated by such factors for many decades if ever. To believe it's happened is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. But some just want to believe and accept such claims without evidence, only assumptions. So be it.
pmcg76 said:
It's fascinating to me that you can on the one hand realize what a game-changer EPO was, and still think it's believable to see EPO times now, as if humans mutate in 5-20 years.
This sport has maximized most of the efficiencies in technology, with bike weight (artificial ceiling) and power transfer not changing much in that time. I don't think wheels are getting rounder, but I hear rumors.
There isn't any kind of real, scientific information about whether nutrition and training are significantly different or better than they were 5-20 years ago. Certainly one could expect a general raise in the efficacy of both over time, but one would also expect some peaks and valleys in performance from these factors as experiments go wrong.
If you look at the progression of performance before the advent of oxygen vector doping, it seems to be very slow, as in other sports. I would expect a percent or at best two in performance per decade, slowing as we edge nearer to the limits and the gains become smaller. I would expect some sports to regress over the course of a decade as true superstars come and go.
I would not expect gains of up to 15% over the previous champions to be eradicated by such factors for many decades if ever. To believe it's happened is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. But some just want to believe and accept such claims without evidence, only assumptions. So be it.
Re: Re:
It just makes you think of Team US Postal / Discovery. Like we are reliving history again with Team Sky.
It is amusing the skybots cannot see that Team sky has domestique riders that are better than the #1's of all th
e other teams. Everybody saw Porte pull Froome up Alp D'huez following Quintana (no comment on him, but at least he has shown form from a young rider unlike Vroome). Wouter Poels is was also there in the final selection, no comments on the Clinic about him yet. But come on!
compete_clean said:
It just makes you think of Team US Postal / Discovery. Like we are reliving history again with Team Sky.
It is amusing the skybots cannot see that Team sky has domestique riders that are better than the #1's of all th
e other teams. Everybody saw Porte pull Froome up Alp D'huez following Quintana (no comment on him, but at least he has shown form from a young rider unlike Vroome). Wouter Poels is was also there in the final selection, no comments on the Clinic about him yet. But come on!
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Re: Re:
Sky did not have domestiques better that all the other teams number ones. There number 2 was not as good as movistars number 2. Did you watch the race?
lovealiens said:
Sky did not have domestiques better that all the other teams number ones. There number 2 was not as good as movistars number 2. Did you watch the race?
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Re:
That noise when you use your remote to unlock your car. Ketones is a contract of key- and -tones.
Your welcome.
cocteau_ireland said:
That noise when you use your remote to unlock your car. Ketones is a contract of key- and -tones.
Your welcome.
Re: Re:
True Valverde was pretty strong, however he hasn't been dragging anyone else all over France like Porte h.
Tommy79 said:
True Valverde was pretty strong, however he hasn't been dragging anyone else all over France like Porte h.
Yeah if Valverde had pulled hard at the foot of the Alpe with Quintana in tow instead of attacking he maybe could have shed off Porte and Poels and Froome would have been alone for the rest of the climb...guess we'll never know how that would have produced.
Re:
I think the idea was for Quintana to bridge over to him which he did and then slingshot up to the next Movistar rider. Which he did. Pretty decent tactics really and something Sky did earlier with Porte and Roche up the road.
Maybe I've missed something as I only dip into this forum occasionally but Astana get this level of scrutiny last year? 4 riders on the squad found doping and Nibali sprinting up mountains but I didn't see any of this reaction either online or in the press. Also a team run by an ex-doper unless I'm mistaken? Then there's Contador with his well documented past who until recently was DS' d by a former doper. Not saying these guys are doing anything wrong now but there appears to a little bit of bias againt Sky here regardless of what they do.
webvan said:
I think the idea was for Quintana to bridge over to him which he did and then slingshot up to the next Movistar rider. Which he did. Pretty decent tactics really and something Sky did earlier with Porte and Roche up the road.
Maybe I've missed something as I only dip into this forum occasionally but Astana get this level of scrutiny last year? 4 riders on the squad found doping and Nibali sprinting up mountains but I didn't see any of this reaction either online or in the press. Also a team run by an ex-doper unless I'm mistaken? Then there's Contador with his well documented past who until recently was DS' d by a former doper. Not saying these guys are doing anything wrong now but there appears to a little bit of bias againt Sky here regardless of what they do.
I don't think Porte spent all that much time on the front. Sky's success was that the super domestiques spread the work so well between them.
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The - but froome only won cos all his rivals were weak, might have worked if sky hadn't won all but 1 tour de France that they didn't crash out of since they formed. Froome himself has been the strongest rider in every tdf he has ridden since 2011 when he wasn't strong enough to make the team.
It's really not worth the time engaging people who try to waste other people's time creating such weak unthoughtthrough lancesque defenses purely to get a reaction.
It's really not worth the time engaging people who try to waste other people's time creating such weak unthoughtthrough lancesque defenses purely to get a reaction.
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